Is $169 a bad price for a CF shaft?

Is $169 a bad price for a CF shaft

  • Yes, too cheap

  • Yes, too expensive

  • No, great price


Results are only viewable after voting.

PracticeChampion

Well-known member
Might try plugging end of shaft with something before filling to try to get some sort of hollow end below the ferrule. That's if you want some lo-defl to it. I think if you fill all the way its gonna be standard deflect. Kinda depends what you want.
Just chuck up and bore, drill or even pick out any xtra to desired cavity. Atleast any foam I've dealt with comes out fairly easy. If you put something in you might wanna keep working it while it's setting up or it might get stuck and be big trouble
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just chuck up and bore, drill or even pick out any xtra to desired cavity. Atleast any foam I've dealt with comes out fairly easy. If you put something in you might wanna keep working it while it's setting up or it might get stuck and be big trouble
Good idea. didn't think of that. much easier. that way you could experiment with different hollow lengths. kinda dial-a-deflection. ;)
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The blue foam reminds me of the pool noodles (that's what they're called) you can get at Wallmart or probably any dept. store.
 

PracticeChampion

Well-known member
Hardest part for me I've found is getting weight where I want it. To lite of foam makes that hollow ding sound or to dense like my last one and is heavy 4.6oz and thuds a little. Both play fine it's just what I like. Next one hopefully should be right on target at or around 4oz
 

oldschool1478

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Really? Yes they are multi-layer but those layers are made by filament winding. Neither CT or Revo is made by sheet wrapping around the mandrel. Unidirectional is how its laid on the mandrel, CF tow is the material itself. Basically tow is CF thread that is dipped in a resin bath then spun onto a mandrel. Almost all cf tubes are made this way these days.

Can you explain how the longitudinal (lengthwise) tow in this illustration was "spiral wound" on the mandrel?
 

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garczar

AzB Silver Member
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oldschool1478

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The direction of the winding is controlled by a computer. The tow can be laid down in any direction needed from axial to 90deg. Interesting info on this: https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/a-filament-winder-buyeramp39s-guide
If you read your referenced page, it says some machines can do NEAR axial, up to 6 degrees. Predators illustration is showing 0 degrees.

From Rockwestcomposits.com...

1. ROLL WRAPPING
Roll wrapping is typically done with a prepreg product to ensure consistency. A prepreg is a composite product consisting of fabric or fiber already impregnated with the epoxy resin necessary to hold everything together.

The prepreg material is cut into layers of different fiber orientation. Those layers are then rolled onto a cylindrical rod known as a mandrel. The mandrel and prepreg are then wrapped in a plastic film to contain the epoxy resin and compress the layers during curing. Once curing is complete, the mandrel is removed from the center of the finished tubed.

Roll wrapping results in maximum consistency across both carbon fiber and fiberglass tubing. The process also affords more customization in terms of both fiber/mandrel configuration and production quantities. Roll wrapping is the preferred process for producing small runs.

2. FILAMENT WINDING
The filament winding process begins with a composite tow of either carbon fiber, fiberglass, or a carbon fiber-fiberglass hybrid. The tow is loaded onto multiple spools at the back of the winding machine. At the front is a long mandrel that acts as the form for the tubing.

To create the tubing, a carriage travels up and down the length of the machine while the mandrel spins. The tows are applied to the mandrel in a spiral pattern like the stripe on a candy cane. The angle of the spiral can be adjusted as well as how many spirals it takes to make a layer. Once completely formed, the tube is cured before being separated from the mandrel.

Filament winding is more automated than roll wrapping, and therefore a more cost-effective way to produce large volumes of composite tubing in a short amount of time. Customization is often easier with roll wrapping since the fiber and resin can be mixed and matched at the winding machine instead of during the prepregging process.

Which is better: filament wound tube or mandrel wrapped tube?
Filament wound tubes use wet laminate. This means they can suffer from variations in the resin:fibre content. They can also have a lower HDT (maximum temperature before distortion) as filament wound tubes are not post-cured at a high temperature (like mandrel wrapped tubes). Filament wound tubes do not usually contain as much 0º (degree) fibre as mandrel wrapped tubes so they will not be as stiff.

Mandrel wrapped tubes have a much wider range of laminate possibilities, including tapered laminates. This means C-Tech's carbon tubes can be better suited to a particular application than filament wound tubes.

A traditional ‘cloth weave’ finish is often required for carbon tube. The filament winding process doesn't allow an outer layer of cloth fibre to be added to the laminate.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you read your referenced page, it says some machines can do NEAR axial, up to 6 degrees. Predators illustration is showing 0 degrees.

From Rockwestcomposits.com...

1. ROLL WRAPPING
Roll wrapping is typically done with a prepreg product to ensure consistency. A prepreg is a composite product consisting of fabric or fiber already impregnated with the epoxy resin necessary to hold everything together.

The prepreg material is cut into layers of different fiber orientation. Those layers are then rolled onto a cylindrical rod known as a mandrel. The mandrel and prepreg are then wrapped in a plastic film to contain the epoxy resin and compress the layers during curing. Once curing is complete, the mandrel is removed from the center of the finished tubed.

Roll wrapping results in maximum consistency across both carbon fiber and fiberglass tubing. The process also affords more customization in terms of both fiber/mandrel configuration and production quantities. Roll wrapping is the preferred process for producing small runs.

2. FILAMENT WINDING
The filament winding process begins with a composite tow of either carbon fiber, fiberglass, or a carbon fiber-fiberglass hybrid. The tow is loaded onto multiple spools at the back of the winding machine. At the front is a long mandrel that acts as the form for the tubing.

To create the tubing, a carriage travels up and down the length of the machine while the mandrel spins. The tows are applied to the mandrel in a spiral pattern like the stripe on a candy cane. The angle of the spiral can be adjusted as well as how many spirals it takes to make a layer. Once completely formed, the tube is cured before being separated from the mandrel.

Filament winding is more automated than roll wrapping, and therefore a more cost-effective way to produce large volumes of composite tubing in a short amount of time. Customization is often easier with roll wrapping since the fiber and resin can be mixed and matched at the winding machine instead of during the prepregging process.

Which is better: filament wound tube or mandrel wrapped tube?
Filament wound tubes use wet laminate. This means they can suffer from variations in the resin:fibre content. They can also have a lower HDT (maximum temperature before distortion) as filament wound tubes are not post-cured at a high temperature (like mandrel wrapped tubes). Filament wound tubes do not usually contain as much 0º (degree) fibre as mandrel wrapped tubes so they will not be as stiff.

Mandrel wrapped tubes have a much wider range of laminate possibilities, including tapered laminates. This means C-Tech's carbon tubes can be better suited to a particular application than filament wound tubes.

A traditional ‘cloth weave’ finish is often required for carbon tube. The filament winding process doesn't allow an outer layer of cloth fibre to be added to the laminate.
I know this. I just told you how virtually all cf tubes are made these days. Current FW technology produces very uniform, well-made tube. Its also very cost-effective due to the automation. I've talked to more than cf shaft maker and was told that their tubes are filament wound. Don't know of any that are sheet/flag wrapped. I used to be involved in the golf business and golf shafts have gone the same route. Some are still sheet-wrapped but most shafts are FW these days. A golf shaft undergoes WAAAAAY more stress than a pool shaft ever will. If filament winding is good enough to produce a shaft that can endure 130mph swing speeds its more than capable of producing a cue shaft.
 
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oldschool1478

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know this. I just told you how virtually all cf tubes are made these days. Current FW technology produces very uniform, well-made tube. Its also very cost-effective due to the automation. I've talked to more than cf shaft maker and was told that their tubes are filament wound. Don't know of any that are sheet/flag wrapped. I used to be involved in the golf business and golf shafts have gone the same route. Some are still sheet-wrapped but most of the high-end shafts are all filament-wound these days. A golf shaft undergoes WAAAAAY more stress than a pool shaft ever will. If filament winding is good enough to produce a shaft that can endure 130mph swing speeds its more than capable of producing a cue shaft.

Golf shafts and fishing poles are designed for strength and axial flex. Cue shafts are designed for axial stiffness.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Golf shafts and fishing poles are designed for strength and axial flex. Cue shafts are designed for axial stiffness.
I know that and it doesn't require much of that to be useful. Even the hardest hit you'll ever see in a pool game doesn't require huge strength(or the cost/time of hand layup) in the shaft. What chaps me about cf pool shafts is the price. Because of the popularity and demand the big boys are making a killing on these things. You see some of the smaller outfits at 250-275 and ideologist's 170 price point. This is where they should be imo, maybe 300max. I hope he goes thru with his plan. He'll sell all he can make.
 

oldschool1478

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know that and it doesn't require much of that to be useful. Even the hardest hit you'll ever see in a pool game doesn't require huge strength(or the cost/time of hand layup) in the shaft. What chaps me about cf pool shafts is the price. Because of the popularity and demand the big boys are making a killing on these things. You see some of the smaller outfits at 250-275 and ideologist's 170 price point. This is where they should be imo, maybe 300max. I hope he goes thru with his plan. He'll sell all he can make.

Agreed. And I will definitely buy one at that price, as long as it is not spiral wound. ;)
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Funny. Guarantee it will a filament wound tube. Don't think any of the tube makers sell wrapped tubes. Any that do usually only make them in shorter lengths.
Agreed. And I will definitely buy one at that price, as long as it is not spiral wound. ;)
 

DDiabolico

DDiabolico
Voted 'too cheap'.

I think they price is good, but from a buyers perspective, there would be something off about it. A potential buyer might think 'hey, why is every major brand selling their cf shafts for $400-$550 and this one guy is selling his homemade shaft for $170???'

Although, if those are good shafts and you happen to sell a few of them and they play well, it might spark a discussion on why all those big brands charge $300 extra for theirs.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Voted 'too cheap'.

I think they price is good, but from a buyers perspective, there would be something off about it. A potential buyer might think 'hey, why is every major brand selling their cf shafts for $400-$550 and this one guy is selling his homemade shaft for $170???'

Although, if those are good shafts and you happen to sell a few of them and they play well, it might spark a discussion on why all those big brands charge $300 extra for theirs.
'Cause they're making a killing on them is why. CF is THE hot thing in pool these days and they can get away with it. You can buy high-quality tubes in bulk for roughly $25/tube. Add foam fill, ferrule and joint you MIGHT have 35bux in one. Add in shipping,marketing,etc. lets say you have $45-50 in one. Well, at $450 retail there's a lot of profit going around is all i can say. If a quality shaft hits the market at around $200 the big boys are either going to lose sales or adjust prices.
 

DDiabolico

DDiabolico
'Cause they're making a killing on them is why. CF is THE hot thing in pool these days and they can get away with it. You can buy high-quality tubes in bulk for roughly $25/tube. Add foam fill, ferrule and joint you MIGHT have 35bux in one. Add in shipping,marketing,etc. lets say you have $45-50 in one. Well, at $450 retail there's a lot of profit going around is all i can say. If a quality shaft hits the market at around $200 the big boys are either going to lose sales or adjust prices.
In my opinion that's the crux of it. The big brands have a certain reputation (some good, some not so good) they need to live up to. At a retail price of ~$450 they can't afford to sell a product that's not high quality. And even if some shafts develop issues they sure are eager to fix it before receiving negative backlash.
I'm hesitant about buying from someone who just wants to get some of the cake. That's mainly because, if this particular project doesn't work out and the person then decides to quit making shafts altogether, he/she can't be held accountable anymore if there's an issue with the product. And even if the product is really good doesn't mean it will sell, even if it's way cheaper.
When I'm looking at GO customs (Goran Kobas), I don't really get why his shafts are priced at ~$450 (€400). Goran is a one man show, does his own work and his shafts play really well, but I think that they would probably sell better if they were priced at ~$350. I don't say that they're not worth the money, I just wanna say that the price is also a factor of getting wider recognition as most people are inclined to try a product when it's reasonable/cheaper priced than it's direct competition.
 

MD1108

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A price point of $169 and a high quality product will definitely generate tons of interest. CF is on the radar screen for many players but, not everyone can afford to experiment with the current absurdly exorbitant pricing matrix established by the leading manufacturers.

Break cue CF shaft or break/jump CF shaft?
I'm willing to purchase a CF break cue shaft, or a break/jump CF shaft, if that's on the menu for this new endeavor. I'll continue to monitor the thread for updates. Wishing Ideologist the best of luck should he take this venture on.
 

xX-Wizard-Xx

Well-known member
Wha
A price point of $169 and a high quality product will definitely generate tons of interest. CF is on the radar screen for many players but, not everyone can afford to experiment with the current absurdly exorbitant pricing matrix established by the leading manufacturers.

Break cue CF shaft or break/jump CF shaft?
I'm willing to purchase a CF break cue shaft, or a break/jump CF shaft, if that's on the menu for this new endeavor. I'll continue to monitor the thread for updates. Wishing Ideologist the best of luck should he take this venture on.
What benefits does cf give you over maple shafts in breaking?
 
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