Is 8-ball Really 'Real Pool'?

C

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Almost all of the players in this tournament have TONS of break and run outs. Isn't 8-ball supposed to be tougher than 9-ball? It sure doesn't seem that way. Yes I understand it's a round robin, so they play alot more matches, but in races to 8, ALOT of players are averaging breaking and running 4 racks per match! That is rare in 9-ball.

Some of these players are running 6 and 7 packs. How can this be 'real pool' if you just sit in your chair more often than you do in 9-ball? I'm not criticizing the IPT, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. It seems like 8-ball is MUCH easier than 9-ball to the pros.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Almost all of the players in this tournament have TONS of break and run outs. Isn't 8-ball supposed to be tougher than 9-ball? It sure doesn't seem that way. Yes I understand it's a round robin, so they play alot more matches, but in races to 8, ALOT of players are averaging breaking and running 4 racks per match! That is rare in 9-ball.

Some of these players are running 6 and 7 packs. How can this be 'real pool' if you just sit in your chair more often than you do in 9-ball? I'm not criticizing the IPT, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. It seems like 8-ball is MUCH easier than 9-ball to the pros.
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Only the very top 3 or 4 players are averaging that many break and runs, and there's only been one match where the player string six or more racks that I've heard of (Markus Juva did). If you look at all the players left in the tournament (which excludes 120 of the weaker performances), and calculate the average break and runs per match that those players have experienced, it looks to me like that number would be under 3 (but I'm too lazy to actually look up all the numbers and average them). Is that "MUCH easier than 9-ball"? It sounds to me like the players are doing LESS sitting in their chairs than in 9-ball tournaments. Until we get some real number analysis or get the chance to actually watch several IPT tournaments, I don't see how either of us can prove our position.

-Andrew
 
Here we go again... Yes, 8 ball is slightly easier to run out than 9 ball is, primarily because it is difficult to come up with a legitimate shot after the break playing 9 ball.

However, no one is *averaging* 4 B&Rs that I know of. There were a few impressive performances in that department, but the B&Rs averages are still hovering in the 30% percentile, last time I checked. Much like 9 ball, but a little higher.

Most games if you check have between 1-3 B&Rs and that's not unusual. Also remember; B&Rs don't mean they were consecutive racks.
 
lewdo26 said:
Here we go again... Yes, 8 ball is slightly easier to run out than 9 ball is, primarily because it is difficult to come up with a legitimate shot after the break playing 9 ball.

However, no one is *averaging* 4 B&Rs that I know of. There were a few impressive performances in that department, but the B&Rs averages are still hovering in the 30% percentile, last time I checked. Much like 9 ball, but a little higher.

Most games if you check have between 1-3 B&Rs and that's not unusual. Also remember; B&Rs don't mean they were consecutive racks.
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I totally agree and the stats do show this to be true, I always felt both 9 ball and 8 ball are about the same, although I always gave 9 ball the edge as being easier to run out for the most part. In 8 ball you can get lots of tie ups, 9 ball is just much more open and free flowing.

Also 8 ball does have many different approaches to it, 9 ball is cut and dry, you start with 1 and go 9, no real choices, just position play. If an inexperience player plays 8 ball, they can make huge mistakes like no tomorrow, but run 9 ball ranks with ease.

Six of one half a dozen of another, about the same, but a great 9 ball player does not always mean a great 8 ball player and vise versa.
 
"Real Pool" is part of the IPTs trademarked tag line. It's always dangerous to read too much into some marketing mumbo-jumbo.

Dave, who thinks they may have to modify their tag like to :

REAL POOL. REAL RULES (not a fake rule anywhere, not even the ones we make up on the spot, honest!). REAL MONEY"
 
Neils Feijen has the most B&Rs in the tournament. 35 out of 145 games played. Is that a much higher percentage of B&Rs than 9 ball?
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Almost all of the players in this tournament have TONS of break and run outs. Isn't 8-ball supposed to be tougher than 9-ball? It sure doesn't seem that way. Yes I understand it's a round robin, so they play alot more matches, but in races to 8, ALOT of players are averaging breaking and running 4 racks per match! That is rare in 9-ball.

Some of these players are running 6 and 7 packs. How can this be 'real pool' if you just sit in your chair more often than you do in 9-ball? I'm not criticizing the IPT, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. It seems like 8-ball is MUCH easier than 9-ball to the pros.
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No players are averaging 4 B&Rs per match, I just checked. More like the VERY BEST (only about 10 players in the whole tournament) averages so far are between 3-4 B&Rs OUT OF 10 GAMES WON.
 
As of right now, the overall BR% is 21.75%.

Arguably, the field of 200 contains some players who are not world class, so perhaps a better statistic is the BR% for players remaining in the top 60.

The overall BR% for the top 60 is 26.36%

There are 8 players over 35%
Feijen 44.30%
Bustamante 42.31%
Immonen 37.33%
Souquet 37.33%
Pagulayan 36.76%
Archer 36.59%
Boyes 36.25%
Lining 35.29%

There are 17 players over 30%

I believe that this is higher than what one would find in a 9-ball tourney. Particularly with the conditions: tight slow tables, greuling 10-hour sessions. But I'm not sure. I heard at one point someone did a study of BR% in some 9-ball tourney, but I don't remember the results and I don't remember what the conditions were.

Another point is that it seems that the main factor keeping the BR% down is that it is hard to make a ball on the break given the break box, no phenolic tips, tight pockets, slow cloth. I would imagine the run out percentage in the first shooting inning is very high. Arguably, if by far the most important factor is whether or not a ball drops on the break, and if the percentage of 1-shooting-inning games is at 70% or higher as I would imagine it is, this is not what is meant by "real pool." It's more of a breaking contest.

Also, the IPT issued a press release claiming that the overall BR% after round 2 was around 11%. It looks like they botched the calculation and simply added up all BRs and divided by the sum of the number of matches played for each player, which would count each match twice, once for each participant. By my calculations the overall BR% after day 2 was 22.87%.
 
Of course 8-ball is easier to run out, isn't that common knowledge?? You get a shot after the brake almost 100% of the time, that has got to help. Making a ball has been the hard part I believe, as the tables seem to brake tough. Of course 9-ball on these table would have quite a few less run outs as well.
 
ineedaspot said:
As of right now, the overall BR% is 21.75%.

Arguably, the field of 200 contains some players who are not world class, so perhaps a better statistic is the BR% for players remaining in the top 60.

The overall BR% for the top 60 is 26.36%

There are 8 players over 35%
Feijen 44.30%
Bustamante 42.31%
Immonen 37.33%
Souquet 37.33%
Pagulayan 36.76%
Archer 36.59%
Boyes 36.25%
Lining 35.29%

There are 17 players over 30%

I believe that this is higher than what one would find in a 9-ball tourney. Particularly with the conditions: tight slow tables, greuling 10-hour sessions. But I'm not sure. I heard at one point someone did a study of BR% in some 9-ball tourney, but I don't remember the results and I don't remember what the conditions were.
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It would be nice if there were these type of stats on any 9-ball tourney.

Another factor is that every player is playing more matches, so every professional is going to get a better shot at reaching their A-game, and therefore, more B&R's. In a normal double knock out tournament, you're simply done when you lose two.

That being said, how often has anyone seen a professional break and run 40% of his breaks throughout a 9-ball tournament? Ralf and Rudolfo might have done it at the DCC, but I only saw the final two matches of each (where I believe they combined for nearly 20 break and runs in a race to 7 format).

Fred
 
lewdo26 said:
but the B&Rs averages are still hovering in the 30% percentile, last time I checked. Much like 9 ball, but a little higher.
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Strickland and Archer at top form have the highest B&R averages among 9-ball players, which are around 32-33% (these stats were compiled by Accu-Stats over a number of tournaments). I think the B&R averages for players in this tourney are higher than for 9-ball.

FWIW, as far as comparing the difficulty of the two games it is hard to do--9-ball and 8-ball are very different creatures. As far as comparing the B&R difficulty between the two that is easy, 8-ball is definitely easier to run out.
 
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As far as many people know, real pool is a hole in the back yard full of water.

It's just a slogan, tag lines and slogans are part of the corporate landscape, they are ALL full of garbage if you ask me, but people do eat it up. People get paid to make something from nothing, I could care less what tag line they use, heck say pool makes you rich and gets you chicks! I don't care, if it gets attention and pool gets off the ground, then great!

Does anyone think Coke is the real thing? and just what the heck does that mean, everyone else's soda is fake? it's just a gimmick, the world is full of that type of marketing, and it works.

Honesty or actually describing the product correctly? thats rare. Could you imagine Coke saying this, It's nothing but sugar water that cost a penny, might make you sick or give you diabetes if drink too much, but it's sweet!

I really like the IPT slogan, Real Pool, Real Money, Real good tag line if you ask me, and people will always fight over what's better, 8-ball, 9-ball etc..and for me, straight pool is real pool:-)

How about The IPT, The most played Sport in the World! Rock stars want to be us, Sports athletes envy us, join the revolution and be like GODS! lol

Now thats over the top:-)
 
I would also tend to think that the conditions they set up would have a more significant effect on the game of 9-ball than 8-ball. Except, of course, on the break, where in both cases making a ball becomes tougher when pockets come in and the cloth gets slow.

But in terms of game play, there are a lot more racks of 8-ball that can be run without making any really tough shots and without having to really move the rock, as long as you have good speed and pick decent patterns. I'm not saying it's easy to do necessarily, just that IMO the big-stroke/shotmaking aspect of the game is brought out more in 9-ball, where a lot of racks you have to come with shots and juice up the cueball no matter how good your pattern is. And the effect of tight pockets and especially slow cloth would be most tangible for these tough shots and power stroke shots.

So basically what I'm saying is that tight pockets and slow cloth should reduce the number of balls made on the break similarly for 8-ball and 9-ball. But the run-out percentage in the first shooting inning would probably come down more in 9-ball than in 8-ball. That would be my guess. But what do I know. It would be nice to have actual statistics...
 
I would expect to see more break and runs in a pro level eight ball tournament than in a pro level nine ball tournament.

It is harder to play safe in eight ball, so players have to take their chances with trying to pocket a ball, even when it is not a high percentage shot. When they make the shot, as pros often do, their inning continues.

In nine ball, it is often pretty easy to hide the low ball, so more innings end with a safety if the available shot to pocket a ball is not a high percentage shot. Players don't try for the break and run as often.
 
just like in the first event..you see the creams really rises to the top in these tourney

unlike in the world pool 9 ball championship

you see lots of upsets and elite players got eliminated early on
 
Sure it is real pool. There are real balls, real cues and you still have to make the balls into pockets. I would say "fake" pool is on 7 footers with buckets
 
Marketing slogan. The IPT is trying to market pool to the masses like poker has done. The masses play a few times a year in bars and the occasional pool hall and they usually play 8 ball. Its the most recognized pool game out there, and selling it with the "REAL" moniker makes it sound that much more legit.
How many times have you been in a bar and heard some drunk who couldnt hit the end rail tell you a shot is illegal because you didnt call it off the rail, the 6, the chunks of vomit from last night and the bbq chicken wing grease stain before it fell.
It is saying to the general public (with marketing and commentary) that 8 ball is THE game, and here are THE rules.....
Chuck
 
This is from an IPT press release email that I got today;

"Consider these statistics: after Round Two a total of 17,066 games have been played. Break and Run-outs account for only 10.6% of the games. "

I don't know how well this is holding up. I think as the tournament progresses then there will be more break and runs due to the fact that the strongest players are advancing.

Of course 8 Ball is real pool. So is 9 ball, so is 14.1, so is one pocket. Each game has it's nuances and challenges. And no game is "easy" when you are playing for so much money, against the best in the world on super tough equipment.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
This is from an IPT press release email that I got today;

"Consider these statistics: after Round Two a total of 17,066 games have been played. Break and Run-outs account for only 10.6% of the games. "

I don't know how well this is holding up. I think as the tournament progresses then there will be more break and runs due to the fact that the strongest players are advancing.

Of course 8 Ball is real pool. So is 9 ball, so is 14.1, so is one pocket. Each game has it's nuances and challenges. And no game is "easy" when you are playing for so much money, against the best in the world on super tough equipment.

John
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WOW, someone at the IPT really sent that out, 17,066 games?, I don't think so, it's is half of that, thats the total number including both wins and loses, in one game of pool you get 1 winner and 1 loser, but it's still only 1 game of pool the last time I checked:-)

The total number of games after the 2 rounds is 8533.

The break and run % is 21.28% for all breaks, using the total # of all wins and loses would assume 2 breaks per game, thats just completely wrong.

So the break and run% is 21%
Games are at 8533
after round 2
 
Yeah, I didn't bother to go and do the math but I thought 17,000 games sounded awfully high. For that matter I am having a hard time fathoming 8,000 games for a pro tournament.

Kind of makes you wonder about the number of games played in the BCA/VNEA/APA national events with 250 tables, 8,000 players and several divisisions @ $1 per game going in the table.

John
 
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