If i'm visualizing this right this shot is not a cut usually. You use a lot of inside and rail first to push it down the rail. You can do this with a ld shaft but the squirt/swerve adjustment is different.
Is a Cue with Less Squirt or Cue Ball Deflection Better?
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
I have owned a 314-2 since it was new and have tried using it from time to time. It just seems like a different shaft and has not compelled me to switch from shafts that I have used for years. Perhaps the precision of my stroke is not sufficient to take benefit of the improved accuracy. But if they can develop a shaft that provides better speed control and makes pro-level safeties, I will definitely make the change.
There's where this argument of one being better than the other comes to a head... LD isn't anymore accurate. It just simply allows for less aim correction. If anything, LD should compensate for small cuing errors. <--Maybe that's the single advantage it could have over solid maple.
I bought one of my favorite shafts from you. Are you telling me now that it is defective?
Wrong guy... I'm a horder
That's correct but I'm talking extreme backcuts. At least 90 degrees to the wrong side of the ball. What does that come out to - 100, 110 degrees? The LD shot would have to be massed to get enough hook.
The way I see it, you juice it up with a wall cue, the deflection makes the hook while you still have maximum (give or take) spin doing the masswerve. Not so with an LD. Shooting away hard enough to get the swerve will put the ball out into space. At any rate the LD will start missing at shallower angles than the wall cue.
Not so. It may swerve - or veer even more; IDK. (I use standard big ferrule long taper maple shafts and don't own any LD shafts.) The shot in question however, requires maximum deflection to setup the entry angle.
The “entry angle” is the net result of aim and squirt. Both LD and non-LD shafts can be used to easily create the exact same CB direction. The only difference is with an LD shaft, you can aim closer to the desired direction. Concerning swerve, there is absolutely no difference between shafts for a given shot type and speed. There is no shot that can be made with an LD shaft that cannot also be made with a non-LD shaft, and vice versa. You just need to aim slightly differently so the CB goes in the direction you want … period!
I understand this but we're talking about cutting a frozen ball from the wrong side. Wall cues can make this shot quite efficiently by virtue of the deflection. The line of aim is at least directly into the full object ball and often past it on the wrong side. The goal is maximum spin. The shot works because with the deflection you are shooting "at" the shot. Further you can shoot harder - out to maximum if your stroke is capable, allowing back cuts from near one pocket all the way to the other. Do this with an LD while shooting wide to address the lack of deflection would probably miss the cut entirely. You'd either clip the object ball ineffectively or sail obliquely into the cushion behind it. Unless of course you worked the required masswerve (coined that for this argument lol) into the stroke.
... only because of how you aim the shot with the particular "wall cue." I can make the shot equally well with any cue if you give me a few minutes to figure out how much CB deflection the cue creates. BTW, not all "wall cues" create the same amount of CB deflection.
Again, the only difference is that with an LD shaft, the CB goes closer to where you are actually aiming.
I'm saying this works against the shot since the deflection helps setup the entry. Further, you can put some oomph into this one with a wall cue because you are using the deflection. Not so with an LD shaft. Shooting away will just produce insufficient deflection in the wrong direction, especially if you hit it hard enough to get maximum spin.
And what of the missing swerve? Since with an LD you have to aim to miss the edge of the ball, what brings the cue ball back into the pocket?
I've tried my best to convince you. This is the last time I will try:
The "deflection helps setup the entry" only if you aim in the right place. The aim needs to be slightly different for an LD shaft and a non-LD shaft (you need to aim more crooked with the non-LD shaft), but the CB direction (or "entry") is the same!
Swerve does not depend on the shaft!
For more info on and demonstrations of everything, see the videos and other resources here:
PS: I know you are more effective with the shot you are describing using a house cue, but that is only because of the way you are aiming the shot. But you could be just as effective with any cue with slight aim differences. IMO, in general, LD shafts offer slight advantages for most people (from novice to pro).
dendweller
Well-known member
You said earlier in the thread that you knew deflection doesn't effect swerve. Do you think an LD shaft doesn't swerve as much as a high deflection shaft?
I can make this without jacking-up/masse'ng with a my Mezz 700 or a 314. Not hard at all. These shots are rare and choosing a shaft for shots that rarely come up doesn't make much sense. Bottom line is play what you like and are used to. I got out my Jensen with ivory ferrules the other day and could hardly make a ball using side spin. The squirt of that cue is HUGE compared to my Mezz shaft. I can't believe i used to play cues that all squirted like hell. You made the adjustment and went on.
Maybe this will help understand how shafts with different amounts of CB deflection produce the same result.
(The "No Squirt" cue is, of course, theoretical for illustration.)
pj
chgo
It is the nature of the shot that is out of spec with LD and zoned for wall cues. The maximum english and resulting high deflection are what enable the shot. Because you have to shoot away with a LD shaft, you can't stroke for max spin and expect the ball to arrive at the right spot. It's the way you have to shoot the shot with an LD that produces less swerve and likely will result in mises.
From how far past the wrong side of the ball can you hit the shot? The wall cue will go farther.
Nice picture but not indicative of actual cue angle and bridge length. In fact your low squirt depiction, but for the unpivoted parallel position, is close to the way my tip lands on the cue ball.