Is a Short Backswing the Teacher?

[CJ Wiley]

"sometimes the show helps to win the dough"

The "disguise" is sometimes done by players that used to give up a lot of weight (handicap) in gambling games. Generally the weaker players will watch to "try to learn something" and be susceptible to manipulation. This is all perfectly fair and if it happens you really have no one to blame but yourself. "we only recognize what we're familiar with".

DO NOT ALLOW YOURSELF FALL VICTIM TO THIS - it's not difficult (for the seasoned veteran) to make it "look" like they're extending your follow through when in actuality they're not..... "sometimes the show helps to win the dough". 'The Game is the Teacher'

Many have extended prelim strokes then shorten up on delivery.
Just watch Alex Pagulayan , majority of the time, short delivery.
There is no disguise, it is clear to see

 

[SmoothStroke]

I give up, I am far from a weak player

 

[naji]

Many have extended prelim strokes then shorten up on delivery.
Just watch Alex Pagulayan , majority of the time, short delivery.
There is no disguise, it is clear to see

Alex, does not drop elbow , therefore, his stroke ends as his short hand hits his chest, for power shots he drops his elbow and follow throw with half cue length..

 

[SmoothStroke]

Alex, does not drop elbow , therefore, his stroke ends as his short hand hits his chest, for power shots he drops his elbow and follow throw with half cue length..

That is not what I am referring to, but thanks

 

[nobcitypool]

Playing pool at the highest levels has many exceptions to what's commonly taught. One of these "commonly taught words of wisdumb" is to extend your follow through and limit your backswing..... many champions do is the opposite, they extend their backswing and limit their follow through although this may be disguised at times (I'll explain this at another time). 'The Game is the Teacher'

I've had lessons from 4 fairly well known instructors and none of them ever tried to teach anything at all like that.

Just because some professionals bring the cue back until it disappears doesn't make that a fundamentally sound practice that one should incorporate. Reggie Miller was one of the all time greatest shooters but I can't imagine anyone trying to teach his shooting technique. I've yet to see a good instructor try to teach Furryk's golf swing either. Most of us would love to pay as well as Johnny Archer but that doesn't mean learning technically poor fundamentals would be the best way to achieve that.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is the best way to learn, not by "copying," by selective modeling.

Johnny Archer has great fundamentals, that year he was 6/0 in the Mosconi Cup (the best record of anyone).

There's always exceptions, however, I do believe it's prudent to model the greatest players and take from them what works, and leave what doesn't.

This is the best way to learn, not by "copying," by selective modeling. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I've had lessons from 4 fairly well known instructors and none of them ever tried to teach anything at all like that.

Just because some professionals bring the cue back until it disappears doesn't make that a fundamentally sound practice that one should incorporate. Reggie Miller was one of the all time greatest shooters but I can't imagine anyone trying to teach his shooting technique. I've yet to see a good instructor try to teach Furryk's golf swing either. Most of us would love to pay as well as Johnny Archer but that doesn't mean learning technically poor fundamentals would be the best way to achieve that.

 

[nobcitypool]

Whatever. So you're saying every pool player should have the tip disappear in their back swing?

 

[CJ Wiley]

."Omaha John" and many of the greatest players.

No, I said what was in the post below....."Omaha John" and many of the greatest players.

That would exclude quite a few people, don't you think?

When we were in London I shared an apartment with Johnny Archer - we spent every night talking about the next day's strategy AND professional pool techniques. We share many of the same philosophies about competition, such as lowering expectations and raising preparation....also it was his physical knowledge of the game that impressed me and provided me proven insight from one of the all time greats.

I ask him what he did to prepare his stroke for a tournament and he said "I practice what's necessary to make sure I'm completing my backswing".... I immediately could relate, one of my first mentors, "Omaha John" would take the cue back almost out of his fingers....and many of the greatest players I've seen make the tip disappear at the transition point of their backswing.

Whatever. So you're saying every pool player should have the tip disappear in their back swing?

 

[nobcitypool]

No, I said what was in the post below....."Omaha John" and many of the greatest players.

That would exclude quite a few people, don't you think?

That you did. However, you followed those words with these:

One of these "commonly taught words of wisdumb" is to extend your follow through and limit your backswing..... many champions do is the opposite, they extend their backswing and limit their follow through although this may be disguised at times (I'll explain this at another time).

There was a clear implication there tying the words together. Since you seem to suddenly be evasive, I'll help here. On one hand, you stated many of the greatest players let the cue tip disappear in their backstroke. You then followed up on that by saying it was dumb and that many instructors (common would = many and taught = instructors) teach something opposing of that. That could easily be extrapolated into your opinion of many pool instructors but why go there?

 

[one stroke]

Ironically it's the other way around. Trying to create a long, extended follow through causes deceleration. Creating a shorter follow through (when done correctly) causes acceleration and accuracy......a positive "side-effect" - 'The Game is the Teacher'

I'm not picking up what your laying down


1

 

[CJ Wiley]

Playing pool at the highest levels has many exceptions to what's commonly taught.

You are certainly taking liberty with my words......they are written, so it's not difficult to read them clearly and concisely.......without adding words that you say to yourself.

As you can see below I didn't say "instructors," on the contrary I said "commonly taught" (by common people), not your friends that are instructors.....I will go on record that the 4 you are taking lessons from are probably not "common".....if memory serves me correctly you take lessons from Stan with CTE PRO 1 - I have a great deal of respect for Stan and would never refer to him as "common".

I get feedback from pool rooms that people go and the "common teaching" is "everyone" should have a loose grip, (and/or) moderate backswing, and/or a long follow through.....I've heard this from many people in the last couple of years and several of them I teach on a regular basis.

My emphasis at first is on stroke development and proper stance and body mechanics......I also teach several specific techniques and systems that I can list if you like.......here's a few that aren't "commonly taught" in pool rooms, and/or bars.

Hand Connection & Alignment
Pre Shot Routine
The Connection System
Developing an Athletic Grip
Establishing Hand Alignment
Planes of the Stroke
Feet Placement - Your Body's Foundation
Connecting Fitness to the Game
Three Part Pocket System
Feeling Finesse in Your Fingers
Precision Practice Strokes
Pro Alignment - Connecting to the Shot
Mastering the "Three Cs"
Specialty Shots
Self Hypnosis
Anapana Breathing
Inner Game Techniques
Developing Touch and Cue Ball Feedback
Hand Strengthening and Dexterity
Pocket Zones & The "Touch" of Inside
Practice Drills For Primary Target
Establishing Right/Left Body Position
Concentrating On and Off the Table
"Escape Shots"

That you did. However, you followed those words with these:

There was a clear implication there tying the words together. Since you seem to suddenly be evasive, I'll help here. On one hand, you stated many of the greatest players let the cue tip disappear in their backstroke. You then followed up on that by saying it was dumb and that many instructors (common would = many and taught = instructors) teach something opposing of that. That could easily be extrapolated into your opinion of many pool instructors but why go there?

Playing pool at the highest levels has many exceptions to what's commonly taught. One of these "commonly taught words of wisdumb" is to extend your follow through and limit your backswing..... many champions do is the opposite, they extend their backswing and limit their follow through although this may be disguised at times (I'll explain this at another time). 'The Game is the Teacher'

"in pocket billiards, if it feels right, it's probably wrong" - The Game is the Teacher'

 

[nobcitypool]

 

[one stroke]

Well I would not go that far , many teachers teach differant styles of play , there's no denying CJ's style has worked very well for him several of those things could very well be benefit some not all ,, what I think is most important is finding what works best for you
For instance I have found getting my back foot at a 90 degree angle with the but over the center of my foot puts my stroke on a good plain ,, on the other hand after a trip to a sports shrink I found that self hypnosis only works for short term and tends to burn you out quicker than a then a self taught blank thinking routine
Point being there is more than one way to skin a cat , I never would disregard anything until you try it , I you might find many of those those things do work for some

1

 

[CJ Wiley]

extra smells....there's a awkward pattern developing

First extra words, then extra smells....there's an awkward pattern developing. :groucho:

 

[CJ Wiley]

How to create the "trance of empowerment" for your pool game

Yes, I am a strong advocate of experimenting before judging ("effective/non effective") - - - > we can not be empowered without the risk of vulnerability to some extent.

Hypnosis is an interesting study, and probably not good for the short term, although it's always beneficial to make your own hypnosis tapes......our minds won't accept unfamiliar voices, however our own voice will go straight into the unconscious and can make immediate, long lasting changes. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Well I would not go that far , many teachers teach differant styles of play , there's no denying CJ's style has worked very well for him several of those things could very well be benefit some not all ,, what I think is most important is finding what works best for you
For instance I have found getting my back foot at a 90 degree angle with the but over the center of my foot puts my stroke on a good plain ,, on the other hand after a trip to a sports shrink I found that self hypnosis only works for short term and tends to burn you out quicker than a then a self taught blank thinking routine
Point being there is more than one way to skin a cat , I never would disregard anything until you try it , I you might find many of those those things do work for some

1

 

[one stroke]

Yes, I am a strong advocate of experimenting before judging ("effective/non effective") - - - > we can not be empowered without the risk of vulnerability to some extent.

Hypnosis is an interesting study, and probably not good for the short term, although it's always beneficial to make your own hypnosis tapes......our minds won't accept unfamiliar voices, however our own voice will go straight into the unconscious and can make immediate, long lasting changes. 'The Game is the Teacher'

It' is a interesting topic however at the end of the day it very rare for even someone very experienced to be able to sustain self hypnosis for a great period of time ,, a much better method is the art of non thinking of anything specific , this allows the mind to be clear and have the ability to sustain single point focus on demand consistently for long periods of time ,,



1

 

[The Renfro]

CJ this one is for you... I tried and tried to rebuild using the classic stroke as described as the pendulum... I threw that back out the window and then went with the modified pendulum or piston where the elbow drops....

I ended up where I started which is with the knife thrust which I assume has to be close to your sword thrust... There is almost no back swing... the forearm is well forward of perpendicular and the motor for the stroke/thrust is actually the Teres Major, Intraspinatus and Posterior Deltoid plus the wrist...

IF everything is about the forward motion and a striking the cueball exactly where you intend and online why would any backstroke be required?

Hopkins did pretty well with his stroke and Pat Fleming one stroked everything... Willie used the slip so when he pulled the trigger the arm made a backwards move but the cue did not.... I tend to think the longer the backstroke (with the cue) the more accurate you have to be coming forward.... Aside from trying to grooves the cues path what benefits do you really see.... More ramp up area for acceleration???

Chris

 

[CJ Wiley]

Nephesh*** ....commonly known as "The Breathe of Life"

This is easier said than done....anapana meditation is the only training I know of to develop this ability. I practice one hour a day (timed with an alarm) of this respiratory meditation and it has required diligence. If you know of any other way of training I'd be very interested to receive additional information.

The key (in anapana mediation) is to focus on breathing, the bridge between the conscious and unconscious mind....there's interesting things written in ancient manuscripts about this mystical (yet natural) Nephesh*** ....commonly known as "The Breathe of Life".

***
Nephesh (Hebrew) [from naphash to breathe, take breath] Originally the vital breath; by extension of meaning, the vital principle in living bodies; hence a living being itself, based on the fact that such a being has life. Again, the appetitive or animal soul as the seat of involuntary or unconscious volitions, the lower affections, and bodily appetites. Nephesh, therefore, corresponds almost exactly with the Greek psyche and Latin anima.
In the Hebrew Qabbalah, nephesh signifies the breath of life, the vital principle in conjunction with the emotions and passions, but modern Western Qabbalists have stressed the idea of the volitional aspect of the human constitution, wrongly making nephesh equivalent to manas rather than prana in the theosophical classification of human principles. Nephesh is the prana-kamic principle. See also NEPHESH HAYYAH


'The Game is the Teacher'

It' is a interesting topic however at the end of the day it very rare for even someone very experienced to be able to sustain self hypnosis for a great period of time ,, a much better method is the art of non thinking of anything specific , this allows the mind to be clear and have the ability to sustain single point focus on demand consistently for long periods of time ,,



1

 

[CJ Wiley]

Getting the wrist in this position will require you to coil more

It's like drawing back a bow (and arrow), you want to create coil so the release is natural and without thought - and able to apply tremendous acceleration when needed.

Try doing the same thing, with one difference.

Cock the wrist up by putting your hand on your hip and lifting the tip up at least to your eye level....even higher is ok.

Now, get into your shooting position keeping your wrist and forearm in that same position....with your wrist fully cocked as you address the cue ball. You may want to constrict your bicep so you can release by straightening your arm slightly.

Getting the wrist in this position will require you to coil more in the shoulder and bicep creating tension....this is good, because the tension you will soon discover is actually coil....then you can release the coiling action and make incredibly accurate contact with the cue ball target (I recommend a slight TOI position).

I can teach this movement in about 2 - 3 hours, it's challenging to describe it in writing, so experiment with the key points I made and let me know how it goes....I can probably get you on the right track with a few more questions, comments and answers.

Check out the picture of my friend Hank Haney demonstrating the wrist action in the golf swing.....it's very similar, just in a compact form because of the bridge hand's role.

CJ this one is for you... I tried and tried to rebuild using the classic stroke as described as the pendulum... I threw that back out the window and then went with the modified pendulum or piston where the elbow drops....

I ended up where I started which is with the knife thrust which I assume has to be close to your sword thrust... There is almost no back swing... the forearm is well forward of perpendicular and the motor for the stroke/thrust is actually the Teres Major, Intraspinatus and Posterior Deltoid plus the wrist...

IF everything is about the forward motion and a striking the cueball exactly where you intend and online why would any backstroke be required?

Hopkins did pretty well with his stroke and Pat Fleming one stroked everything... Willie used the slip so when he pulled the trigger the arm made a backwards move but the cue did not.... I tend to think the longer the backstroke (with the cue) the more accurate you have to be coming forward.... Aside from trying to grooves the cues path what benefits do you really see.... More ramp up area for acceleration???

Chris

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Always very important not to limit the backswing (whatever the length of it..), the opposite usually leading to a "half stroke" with bad results.