IS IT BAD/WRONG TO SLIDE YOUR BRIDGE HAND???
- Thread starter bbb
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dquarasr
Registered
(Not an instructor - FAR from it!
)
I’ve seen some of the IPA English Blackball players *almost* slide their hand forward, but they seem to put their front hand down by moving it forward as they come down. It’s possible they are actually contacting the cloth and sliding their hand forward. Then they slide their cue forward on their bridge hand to address the CB. It’s pretty subtle and deliberate. I’ve seen more than one player do this but I could be wrong. I’ll have to watch more closely next time.
)I’ve seen some of the IPA English Blackball players *almost* slide their hand forward, but they seem to put their front hand down by moving it forward as they come down. It’s possible they are actually contacting the cloth and sliding their hand forward. Then they slide their cue forward on their bridge hand to address the CB. It’s pretty subtle and deliberate. I’ve seen more than one player do this but I could be wrong. I’ll have to watch more closely next time.
So other than disturbing the cloth and perhaps moving the CB what is the difference of sliding slightly on the cloth vs in the air.?
To me it looks akin to a plane coming in for a landing......When the bridge is on the rail it is like a plane landing on an air craft carrier....hits and stops......but when reached out over the bed of the cloth....the hand comes down and kind of slides to a stop like a plane coming in for a landing.
That small slide forward of the bridge hand (especially the more stretched out you are) is the final calibration of distance from bridge hand to CB and also a method of settling into the stance.......
Saying that pros don't slide the bridge hand into the final spot is complete BS......Sure in some cases it does not move once placed at all especailly on the rail........but on the bed of the cloth and the further away from the rail and/or the more stretched out the shot is the more you will see that final calibration "slide"........even if just a short distance...
IMO I am not for "cookie cutter" techniques.....If you can get into a final stance that is repeatable, consistent and accurate....you can do a back flip into your stance to get there for all I care
Perhaps the OPs instructor was just working on consistency of set up and just working a drill to aid that.....Can't be knowing that without asking.
To me it looks akin to a plane coming in for a landing......When the bridge is on the rail it is like a plane landing on an air craft carrier....hits and stops......but when reached out over the bed of the cloth....the hand comes down and kind of slides to a stop like a plane coming in for a landing.
That small slide forward of the bridge hand (especially the more stretched out you are) is the final calibration of distance from bridge hand to CB and also a method of settling into the stance.......
Saying that pros don't slide the bridge hand into the final spot is complete BS......Sure in some cases it does not move once placed at all especailly on the rail........but on the bed of the cloth and the further away from the rail and/or the more stretched out the shot is the more you will see that final calibration "slide"........even if just a short distance...
IMO I am not for "cookie cutter" techniques.....If you can get into a final stance that is repeatable, consistent and accurate....you can do a back flip into your stance to get there for all I care
Perhaps the OPs instructor was just working on consistency of set up and just working a drill to aid that.....Can't be knowing that without asking.
I looked only briefly at the video you shared, but it seems to emphasize standing the correct distance from the ball with the feet to start, to reduce tip gap, which was my point.
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I was speaking of (and assume the OP instructor was also) a long distance slide.
I often see APA 3's and 4's stance with half-foot tip gaps or more, then move their stroke hands into the final address. It's more rare to see players slide the bridge hands in, but if you address the ball with a big gap and slide your own bridge hand in, you'll feel the cue tug your stroke hand forward, too . . . the bridge hand slide is less destructive than the stroke hand move, but isn't optimal.
I don't know, as you wrote, all the details from the OP instructor, but I've seen students improve in person when we get them to adjust via the feet instead of "sliding in".
I agree re: cookie cutter instruction. For example, things like "back foot has to be Angle X to the shot line for all players" makes no sense when thinking about body shapes for different players.
However, I imagine you'd agree with this statement? "Pros move and fidget far less after assuming the stance than amateurs, and tend to make small, incremental adjustments only." So I would say we're emphasizing fundamentals, not giving false cookie cutter advice.
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Thank you.(Not an instructor - FAR from it!
I’ve seen some of the IPA English Blackball players *almost* slide their hand forward, but they seem to put their front hand down by moving it forward as they come down. It’s possible they are actually contacting the cloth and sliding their hand forward. Then they slide their cue forward on their bridge hand to address the CB. It’s pretty subtle and deliberate. I’ve seen more than one player do this but I could be wrong. I’ll have to watch more closely next time.
For the sake of clarity, I'm speaking of players who assume what looks like the full stance, they are clearly down and also, the cue tip is far from the CB, then they slide the hand forward along the cloth.
That matches the OP also.
I thought you were making a joke about the "sliding bridge" stroke recommended by an "instructor" in another thread.
pj
chgo
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Thank you for this post. Pretty much ends any debate imo. The reason guy provides for the slide is solid. Still, this slide is much less common among pool players than snooker players, but you do see it quite a bit when stretching out over the table as having some support as you stretch just makes sense. Guys like SVB routinely slide the length of their hand, but a slide that big is pretty rare in pool. In snooker, 8inch slides are common.
Two very well known instructors have told me line up, lock on and step into the shot line, landing the bridge hand. Interpret that as you will. I will admit all my pool gloves have a hole in the heel of the hand. But I think I only land/slide 2-3 inches.
Yes and no. We can walk into the shot for visuals without the hand slide. And my arm is the same length today as yesterday and the day before. If I bridge the cue in the air and get right onto the cue ball . . .
Also bear in mind that I'm talking about players who slide the bridge hand/arm only, tugging the stroke arm out of position, since they are not also moving their torso/feet with the bridge hand.
WS, I know you know your stuff, so you'd agree a "stroke hand slide" (huge tip gap, bring the stroke hand in after getting down into the full stance) is a no-no, so why not teach all pool players to get close enough to the ball with their feet, which eliminates the need for a stroke hand slide and/or a bridge hand slide? In other words, less variables, as many here are fond of emphasizing.
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Yes, you have a short slide.
1) Do you slide the feet/body at the same time, or just the hand/arm?
2) Have you looked in a mirror to see if your stroke arm angle is slightly obtuse, and then becomes closer to 90 degrees as your bridge hand slides in?
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
I agree with you that if already down in your well spaced setup, sliding forward from there and disrupting that would be awful. However, as part of the process of getting down, sliding into position makes a lot of sense. As the guy in the vid posted by Poolmanis points out, the sliding in the last few inches allows for subconscious fine tuning of bridge position that lowering directly onto the final position makes more awkward if any fine adjustments need to be made. It's just way easier to make those tiny adjustments when the hand is already on the table than to try to nail it down exactly in the air.
In any case, to return to OP's original question of if it is wrong, if most snooker pros do it, it can't be outright 'wrong'. As Bob mentioned, the instructor who suggested getting rid of it may have been addressing a different issue as in and of itself, sliding into position is fine and as evidenced by the posted vid, is actually taught by some as a part of the process of getting into one's setup. I been doing it for years without any thought to it at all....just a part of how I get down. I literally had to double check a vid of myself playing to see if I slide or not, that's how automatic it is. I don't even notice it really.
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As so often in the past, we agree. Context here is whether movement is lateral and/or forward, and whether it's an inch or two or some huge move.
Thanks!
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Ye, to me 1or2 inches is basically the same as getting down exactly on your spot. The move demonstrated in the vid is akin to a 'swan landing on a lake' as the presenter put it. That takes about a hand length of space. Rare in pool, save for shots in the middle of the table, but quite common in snooker. Still very precise relative to foot placement and spacing, just different in how the bridge hand arrives at its final resting place.
I never paid any attention to whether a player slid his hand getting down on the shot or not.
I've now watched while paying attention to that. It seems to me that it is often just a natural result of getting down on the shot and stretching out the forearm while lowering the head. If the hand reaches the cloth before the head is in the final position, there pretty much has to be some slide forward just from the simple mechanics. The alternative would be to back your head/chest/shoulder away from the shot as the head comes down into position.
I'm not sure it is useful to teach one way or the other. Maybe this is one of those mechanical things that is useless to mention.
I've now watched while paying attention to that. It seems to me that it is often just a natural result of getting down on the shot and stretching out the forearm while lowering the head. If the hand reaches the cloth before the head is in the final position, there pretty much has to be some slide forward just from the simple mechanics. The alternative would be to back your head/chest/shoulder away from the shot as the head comes down into position.
I'm not sure it is useful to teach one way or the other. Maybe this is one of those mechanical things that is useless to mention.
thanks to all for the discussion .....
my friend is a mid 500 fargo who has taken lessons with several instructors thruout the years
noone had ever mentioned this
he slides a few inches not pulling his grip hand forward noticeably
he ends up with the tip close to the cue ball and his shooting forearm perpendicular
he was surprised to be advised not to do it
paraphrasing "if you come down directly its one less moving part....simpler is better"
i too was surprised to hear it which prompyed my thread
with all respect to fran
i see her point that i was putting this instructor on the spot without a chance to defend himself
which was not my intention
the discussion has been informative for me and i especially like nic barrows take on the issue
thanks to bob/matt/wobblystroke/brknrun/poolmanis and every one else for your comments
my friend is a mid 500 fargo who has taken lessons with several instructors thruout the years
noone had ever mentioned this
he slides a few inches not pulling his grip hand forward noticeably
he ends up with the tip close to the cue ball and his shooting forearm perpendicular
he was surprised to be advised not to do it
paraphrasing "if you come down directly its one less moving part....simpler is better"
i too was surprised to hear it which prompyed my thread
with all respect to fran
i see her point that i was putting this instructor on the spot without a chance to defend himself
which was not my intention
the discussion has been informative for me and i especially like nic barrows take on the issue
thanks to bob/matt/wobblystroke/brknrun/poolmanis and every one else for your comments
No but it's a moot point as BA never answered. Probably didn't understand the question
snookered_again
Well-known member
most decent players will pick their shotline when standing, often taking a moment to look at the OB from the perspective of it being directly in front of the pocket..
Then focus upon the OB, then when they go down if they are able to not loose eye contact with the shotline , this might be preferable..
I find that personally I need to change my focus to interpret my distance to the CB and see if I am centered or if a spin is wanted that I am in good alignment with the CB itself.. how much top bottom , sidespin how hard, there is a lot to consider.. for a pro they would tie all that in more seemlessly than I can.
what that does is breaks the eye contact with the OB, then I find myself aiming from the shooting position.. try as I may I find it difficult to never break eye contact with the OB and as soon as I do , any "work" I've done when standing seems to be kind of erased.. then next I am reestablishing the sweet spot on the OB from the shooting position.
I'm usually conscious of where I put my right foot as this aligns my body to the shot and finding the correct place for my bridge hand may take more time to adjust than it would for a pro level player..
I'm more concerned about accuracy than the time I take to align, in snooker it seems pretty common for players to take more time for alignment than 8 or 9 ball. differnt atmosphere entirely.
maybe a bit more thought put into where the CB is going and the leave you will give the opponent if you miss etc..
In all games there is a basic sequence that is relatively unchanged..
what the pros seem to be good at is hitting the ball right and sinking it and positioning the CB more accurately. I think it all takes practice and time.. whether or not I "slide" or not, seems ( to me) less important than the alignment steps.
Perhaps if people have the habit of sliding their hands it can wear or dirty the cloth or in snooker it may change the nap pattern which has been aligned prior to play.,
dirtying the cloth is likely more of an issue for someone trying to make their own rather expensive cloth last 3 years with 20 friends eating around it and playing on it than than a pro who would likely have eaten his lunch, washed his hands, and maybe even had it changed before he graced the tables presence, as if they were rolling out a red carpet for him. in the real world maybe an owner would find that if every one has this practice of sliding their hands, well it might make the cloth look a bit like its being used like a wiper cloth..
on a table with woven cloth the nap isn't really an issue , but on a snooker table, that nap direction may have some importance.. the balls loose less speed going downtable than they do coming up towards the head of the table because the nap slows the ball more if it is running against the nap.. disturbing the nap by sliding may have some importance to a player that is serious enough.. I think thats the least of my worries on my level.
Then focus upon the OB, then when they go down if they are able to not loose eye contact with the shotline , this might be preferable..
I find that personally I need to change my focus to interpret my distance to the CB and see if I am centered or if a spin is wanted that I am in good alignment with the CB itself.. how much top bottom , sidespin how hard, there is a lot to consider.. for a pro they would tie all that in more seemlessly than I can.
what that does is breaks the eye contact with the OB, then I find myself aiming from the shooting position.. try as I may I find it difficult to never break eye contact with the OB and as soon as I do , any "work" I've done when standing seems to be kind of erased.. then next I am reestablishing the sweet spot on the OB from the shooting position.
I'm usually conscious of where I put my right foot as this aligns my body to the shot and finding the correct place for my bridge hand may take more time to adjust than it would for a pro level player..
I'm more concerned about accuracy than the time I take to align, in snooker it seems pretty common for players to take more time for alignment than 8 or 9 ball. differnt atmosphere entirely.
maybe a bit more thought put into where the CB is going and the leave you will give the opponent if you miss etc..
In all games there is a basic sequence that is relatively unchanged..
what the pros seem to be good at is hitting the ball right and sinking it and positioning the CB more accurately. I think it all takes practice and time.. whether or not I "slide" or not, seems ( to me) less important than the alignment steps.
Perhaps if people have the habit of sliding their hands it can wear or dirty the cloth or in snooker it may change the nap pattern which has been aligned prior to play.,
dirtying the cloth is likely more of an issue for someone trying to make their own rather expensive cloth last 3 years with 20 friends eating around it and playing on it than than a pro who would likely have eaten his lunch, washed his hands, and maybe even had it changed before he graced the tables presence, as if they were rolling out a red carpet for him. in the real world maybe an owner would find that if every one has this practice of sliding their hands, well it might make the cloth look a bit like its being used like a wiper cloth..
on a table with woven cloth the nap isn't really an issue , but on a snooker table, that nap direction may have some importance.. the balls loose less speed going downtable than they do coming up towards the head of the table because the nap slows the ball more if it is running against the nap.. disturbing the nap by sliding may have some importance to a player that is serious enough.. I think thats the least of my worries on my level.
Could you give bullet points of the major things you want us to know?