Is there a logical reason for this or is in all inside my head?
- Thread starter alstl
- Start date
tip
Most people file it down anyway to get it to the most consistant part of the tip. I know that most of the people that install them around here might take off about 1/3 of the tip by the time they shape it and get it ready for play.
It also depends on what type of tip you use. Some are more consistent throughout the whole tip, some are less consistent through various parts of the tip.
Most people file it down anyway to get it to the most consistant part of the tip. I know that most of the people that install them around here might take off about 1/3 of the tip by the time they shape it and get it ready for play.
It also depends on what type of tip you use. Some are more consistent throughout the whole tip, some are less consistent through various parts of the tip.
alstl said:
Your not the only one. When I first noticed this, I saw that the tip would flatten out after a rack or two and I would have to re-shape it. Like txplshrk said, file it down before playing.
Not in your head. Generally speaking, the tip is normally cut down to an acceptable height to width aspect ratio. For thin diameters, that height would be shorter.alstl said:
People have also reported adverse effects to keeping a layered tip too tall, with delamination as the main failure. That makes sense if the glue joint isn't up to par. Too much side load or bending moment on them.
Most single layer tips need to be compressed to their max to give you consistent feel. That's why cuemakers pre-press them (after carefully selecting the prime tips out of a box. Your shooting also further compresses them until they stop mushroom. Players like to call this period "breaking in a tip." Some bad tips will neverget to this point.
Fred
The simple explanation is that your new, tall tip is striking the cue ball a tad earlier than your old, worn-down tip, so it's not striking where you think it is. I've seen smokers light a 100mm cigarette about 5mm below the end when they're accustomed to regular-sized butts. But they get used to the longer length pretty quickly. I think the same is true of a cue tip. Just replace your tip during a week when you have no important matches, and get used to it.
Fred, I would love to read your theory of tip height/width aspect ratio. I just measured a brand new Moori tip; 14.04mm dia. x 5.75mm tall. If I turned it down to 13mm I'd have to remove 0.43mm to maintain the same h/w aspect ratio (0.41). That's about $2.25 worth of a Moori tip if it costs $30 installed. Seems like a waste to me.
Also, I suspect that bad laminated tips delaminate while still new and tall, and would do so even if they were filed down. OTOH, the odds of a bad bond among 14 layers is greater than the odds of a bad bond among fewer layers, so maybe delamination is more common in taller tips.
A new tip will change relatively rapidly during the first several hours of play, then stabilize and change much more slowly over time. Again, I think the answer is to break the tip in during a non-critical period, not to file away perfectly good leather.
Fred, I would love to read your theory of tip height/width aspect ratio. I just measured a brand new Moori tip; 14.04mm dia. x 5.75mm tall. If I turned it down to 13mm I'd have to remove 0.43mm to maintain the same h/w aspect ratio (0.41). That's about $2.25 worth of a Moori tip if it costs $30 installed. Seems like a waste to me.
Also, I suspect that bad laminated tips delaminate while still new and tall, and would do so even if they were filed down. OTOH, the odds of a bad bond among 14 layers is greater than the odds of a bad bond among fewer layers, so maybe delamination is more common in taller tips.
A new tip will change relatively rapidly during the first several hours of play, then stabilize and change much more slowly over time. Again, I think the answer is to break the tip in during a non-critical period, not to file away perfectly good leather.
The three relevant tip characteristics that might be affected are contact time, squirt, and energy transfer (coefficient of restitution).alstl said:
Contact time - With an increase in this and everything else being equal, you get more spin. However, even if the contact period doubles, the resulting increase in spin is so small, roughly a couple of percent, I doubt that you would notice it. It can make a difference when you're attempting extreme spin, with a miscue as a consequence.
Squirt - I doubt that this is affected very much.
Coefficient of restitution - Of the three, I suspect that this is the one whose changes during break-in might be most noticeable. Some of the energy that normally goes into propelling the cueball and into spinning it is being used to permanently deform the tip. So the net effect is loss of speed and spin.
Just some thoughts.
Jim
I went to the Sniper Tip about 2 years ago.
Ron Geyer puts it on, I knock the hell out of the balls for about 2 hours and then have him cut or reshape it for me, and I'm done with it.
I used to change tips about evey month and I have used a Sniper for as long as 6 months.
At first though, yep, it's in my head too.
Ron Geyer puts it on, I knock the hell out of the balls for about 2 hours and then have him cut or reshape it for me, and I'm done with it.
I used to change tips about evey month and I have used a Sniper for as long as 6 months.
At first though, yep, it's in my head too.
Dhakala said:
A examination would be to go to an extreme. Say, a two inch tall tip, same glue, same lamination process. It would be easy to see that shooting with english, there would be a side load and bending moment that you definitely would be able to feel and fear. So, you'd cut it down until it felt right. How far? That'd be up to the player, I guess.
Similarly, if you take two identical tips, and put one on a 13.25 mm shaft and the other on a 11 mm shaft, you'd be hard pressed not to cut down the one on the 11 mm shaft simply because it's too tall for its diameter. How far? I'm sure someone has a number.
Also, remember that when you install a Moori, you trim it and dome it. I wouldn't consider those trimmings as lost cost.
Finally, I think a few cuemakers reported back that small diameter tips left taller delaminated more. It's been a few years, but I suppose a cuemaker could chime in.
Fred
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Cornerman said:
Fred, have you ever felt a tip seem to bend sideways? I haven't, and I've never heard such an excuse for missing a shot. Knowing pool players, I'm sure that if such an excuse existed, it would have been broadcast widely by now.
The tip height that would "feel right" to a player is the height below which this "bending" effect is negligible. Tips sold today must fall well beneath that minimum, or we would hear about it frequently.
Those are necessary losses. I wouldn't remove more leather than necessary to achieve my dome unless delamination actually occurred.
Cutting down a new tip to lower than full-height is a pretty old idea. It certainly isn't an "excuse of the day," thing. I mean, the original poster asked a pretty good question without preconception. I'm simply responding with what is an old answer to his question.Dhakala said:Fred, have you ever felt a tip seem to bend sideways? I haven't, and I've never heard such an excuse for missing a shot. Knowing pool players, I'm sure that if such an excuse existed, it would have been broadcast widely by now.
I think everyone can feel the difference between a tip that's too tall, and a tip that's not.
Again, it's a ratio. And the smaller tip diameters would necessarily get shorter. I don't know if I've seen any cue tipper put on a full-height Moori, for example, on a 12 mm tip. If this is a concept that's new to you, I'd suggest to get feedback from various cuemakers and cue mechanics.
Here's a post from Talisman (Tony Jones) on the subject. I'm sure he's done more study on this than you or I have:
New Tip Height
Fred
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Yes, I've heard of players who prefer to grind off most of a brand-new tip until it looks like it was installed a year ago. I can certainly understand why people who install tips would recommend such a procedure. 
But I've never heard anyone claim that he felt his too-tall tip bending sideways.
My theory is that it's constant tip length that matters to some players, not a particular length or height/width ratio. As a tip is repeatedly struck, it becomes harder. A harder tip grows shorter more slowly. So any tip is short longer than it is long. (Now there's trinely-furned phase!) The player spends more time playing with a relatively short tip. He becomes accustomed to striking the cue ball at a point in his stroke that depends on the length of his cue tip (all else being the same). Suddenly replacing a short tip with a new one throws him; he's hitting the cue ball before he expects to, and not where he expects to. So he wants the new tip to be shortened, making it closer to the length of his worn tip. Some guys take this to the extreme of grinding a new tip down to a nickel's thickness.
Intolerance for variances in tip length seems dysfunctional to me. One should be able to adapt to a 3/16" difference in tip length very quickly, and adjust effortlessly as the tip wears down gradually.
But then, I can't stand to have anyone touching my pool table while I'm shooting. It destroys the feng shui that's so vital to Zen Cueism.
But I've never heard anyone claim that he felt his too-tall tip bending sideways.My theory is that it's constant tip length that matters to some players, not a particular length or height/width ratio. As a tip is repeatedly struck, it becomes harder. A harder tip grows shorter more slowly. So any tip is short longer than it is long. (Now there's trinely-furned phase!) The player spends more time playing with a relatively short tip. He becomes accustomed to striking the cue ball at a point in his stroke that depends on the length of his cue tip (all else being the same). Suddenly replacing a short tip with a new one throws him; he's hitting the cue ball before he expects to, and not where he expects to. So he wants the new tip to be shortened, making it closer to the length of his worn tip. Some guys take this to the extreme of grinding a new tip down to a nickel's thickness.
Intolerance for variances in tip length seems dysfunctional to me. One should be able to adapt to a 3/16" difference in tip length very quickly, and adjust effortlessly as the tip wears down gradually.
But then, I can't stand to have anyone touching my pool table while I'm shooting. It destroys the feng shui that's so vital to Zen Cueism.
Experiment with a dime shaped tip, then nickel shaped, then quarter shaped. Try draw, follow, and long english shots. Also force draw/follow. (Use an old cue.)
I use a dime shaped tip and very good players who are used to a nickel shaped tip who try to show me a shot using my cue will have difficulty everytime. I have trouble when using a house cue with a quarter shaped tip.
Note that Predator recommends a dime shaped tip and says it has less cue ball deflection than a nickel shaped tip. (So I would assume that different shaped tips will deflect the cue ball differently.)
I feel the best thing is to always keep your tip the same shape. Then when installing a new tip, it will also be the same and play the same. This has been my experience.
I know a lot of other players who don't know what shape/brand/hardness their tip is. They get a new tip = different brand/hardness and different shape. It plays differently. They have trouble shooting for sometimes up to a month or two.
I say the tip is the "business end" of the cue. It is well worth learning about, spending money on, and taking excellent care of.
I use a dime shaped tip and very good players who are used to a nickel shaped tip who try to show me a shot using my cue will have difficulty everytime. I have trouble when using a house cue with a quarter shaped tip.
Note that Predator recommends a dime shaped tip and says it has less cue ball deflection than a nickel shaped tip. (So I would assume that different shaped tips will deflect the cue ball differently.)
I feel the best thing is to always keep your tip the same shape. Then when installing a new tip, it will also be the same and play the same. This has been my experience.
I know a lot of other players who don't know what shape/brand/hardness their tip is. They get a new tip = different brand/hardness and different shape. It plays differently. They have trouble shooting for sometimes up to a month or two.
I say the tip is the "business end" of the cue. It is well worth learning about, spending money on, and taking excellent care of.
I cut my talisman tips down about a third. For me, too much tip has a softer feel, which I dislike. I'd like to think I can adjust to moving my stroke back .04 inches.
(too little tip feels too hard for me, too. I tend to replace them as soon as the feel demands it)
-s
(too little tip feels too hard for me, too. I tend to replace them as soon as the feel demands it)
-s
Billy_Bob said:
i used to shape my tips to a nickel radius, then when i read predators report that dime shaping your tip gives you X% (can't remember) less deflection i started doing that. i miscued constantly. the best advice i've heard is to shape it one time initially and your playing style will shape the tip depending on your play, as the tip is breaking in. obviously, you have to trim or burnish if it mushrooms.
BTW, they always stay rite between a nickel and quarter radius, and that is what works for me.
also, i think that tips left too tall do kind of have a squishy effect. i definately think they play much better when they are older and more compressed. kind of like a baseball glove brand new off the rack vs. one someone played with for years.
Its personal opinion really.
I know some guys who take a Moori Med and cut it almost in half, and then put it on and then shape it. And some pro's do it too, because it breaks in faster. Me personally, i would think i just wasted 30$ lol.
Now, i will say, I had one Moori med tip, i let it get all the way down to the point where i couldnt scuff it anymore or i would hit the ferrule. But damn I swear to GOD, I played better and the feel of everything when hitting the balls felt better than ever.
Now I just stick to solid tips like Triumph or Le-pro or Triangle. And i dont seem to really notice the difference at all, and the 10$ tips dont glaze over nearly as much which is nice too.
And I leave my tips the full hieght, except for the initial shaping and scuffing of the tip.
I know some guys who take a Moori Med and cut it almost in half, and then put it on and then shape it. And some pro's do it too, because it breaks in faster. Me personally, i would think i just wasted 30$ lol.
Now, i will say, I had one Moori med tip, i let it get all the way down to the point where i couldnt scuff it anymore or i would hit the ferrule. But damn I swear to GOD, I played better and the feel of everything when hitting the balls felt better than ever.
Now I just stick to solid tips like Triumph or Le-pro or Triangle. And i dont seem to really notice the difference at all, and the 10$ tips dont glaze over nearly as much which is nice too.
And I leave my tips the full hieght, except for the initial shaping and scuffing of the tip.