Is this a legal shot in pool

Check out the other thread. I explained my thoughts on it there before, but here goes. I've used the shot many times. It comes from carom billiards when you get the balls in the corner you keep moving between them by the fraction of an inch running up your score. You don't have to lay the cue on the table, that comes from Bob's article. Think about Reyes lining up a shot, open bridge. His cue tip is on the table, at the base of the cue ball. A short upward movement of the thumb brings the tip slightly forward and up moving the cue ball. Try it, it is easy. Think intentional scratches in one pocket, think 9 ball, object ball and cue ball next to the end rail and moving the cue ball just enough to freeze the object ball to the rail and not expose the end rail for a return safety.

A very good tool to have in our arsenal, and very legal. In one pocket, its usually used for intentional fouls anyway.
 
quitecoolguy said:
She put her cuestick on the table slid it so that the tip of the cuestick was a close to the cue ball as she could without touching it. she then walked up toward the shaft put both hands on the shaft and lifted the shaft upward...when she lifted the shaft up ward the tip made contact with the cueball sending it softly into the 4 ball thus parking the 4 ball against the bottom rail with the cue ball snug against it......

all i could say was.."I have no clue if that is legal or not"
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Illegal, if I have a vote. But there doesn't seem to be much in the rules that disallow it. If she didn't ever let go of the cue.

I think shots like this should be addressed in a standardized rule book, while other obscure rules should be taken out.

Fred
 
It's legal in the APA

I contacted by the National APA office and they ruled that this is a legal shot. Here's what the APA said:

Dear Edward,

Although I have never personally witnessed such a shot it is my understanding, upon further investigation, that this shot was made several years ago in Las Vegas during an APA National Tournament as well as last year and was ruled as legal on those occasions. I have also confirmed whether this shot will continue to be ruled as legal with our APA National Tournament Dept. We will be documenting your inquiry and our response, should we be asked to make a ruling in the future.

In regard to the legality of the shot you described, only the tip of the cue stick, not the ferrule, may make contact with the cue ball and all other requirements that are necessary for a legal shot must be met as well. The APA currently does not have a written rule stating that you cannot lay the cue on the table during a game without at least one hand touching it.

Thanks for providing with such an interesting question! We appreciate your taking the time to contact us and for your participation in the APA.

Heide Nilson
American Poolplayers Association
 
Although the APA ruled it legal...

Although the APA ruled it legal, I have a problem with someone placing a cue on the table and then lifting it up (particularly with both hands). Something about that just doesn't seem legit. I also asked members in my local leagues what they thought, and most seem to think it's legal, although they would discourage their team mates from doing it, in order to avoid arguments with other teams.
 
TheBook said:
Would the upward motion be any different than a downward motion used in a jump shot or Masse? If a stroke has to be a forward motion than wouldn't those shots also be illegal?
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Try each shot and I think you will find that the action is as different as night and giraffes. In all normal strokes, including masse shots and jump shots, the cue stick moves mostly along its main axis. It may have some slight sideways motion from stroke swerve or deflection, but the overwhelmingly dominant and effective motion is forward along the main axis.

The lift shot is an entirely different beast (or time of day).

(The main axis of the stick is the imaginary line joining the center of the tip and the center of the rubber bumper.)
 
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TheBook said:
Would the upward motion be any different than a downward motion used in a jump shot or Masse? If a stroke has to be a forward motion than wouldn't those shots also be illegal?
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I don't see the confusion here with jump shots and masse'....the CUE is moving FORWARD wether it be at a downward angle or not...the debate is that the shot in dispute is the cue is held still and then just lifted up to make contact with the CB....I couldn't find anything in the APA rule book relating to this situation so who knows who is right and who is wrong.....
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Subsonic2u said:
OK Bob. What do u have to say about the 2 shots mentioned here. The lift the shaft so the tip hits, and also the, basically miscue, hit on the very side of the Q ball. What would u call them? Fair or Foul?:confused: Just for the record, I'm a big fan of your site showing the different shots.
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I think they should both be fouls. The present rules are not clear on this. I hope to help fix that.
 
showboat said:
I don't see the confusion here with jump shots and masse'....the CUE is moving FORWARD wether it be at a downward angle or not...the debate is that the shot in dispute is the cue is held still and then just lifted up to make contact with the CB....I couldn't find anything in the APA rule book relating to this situation so who knows who is right and who is wrong.....
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I've seen masse shots where, to the eye at least, the cue was held completely vertical. The cue ball only moved in a forward direction because of the off center hit.

I see this shot and similar variations as a novel way to solve a problem. As long as the CB is struck with the tip of the cue and not the ferrule, I don't see the issue.

I believe rules about how you must stroke the cue to make a legal shot will be impossible to clarify and will open the door to many interpretations and judgmental rulings.

Also, I don't see how you can call a miscue a foul unless you are going to call every miscue a foul. Even if you did that, then "what is a miscue?"
 
GADawg said:
I've seen masse shots where, to the eye at least, the cue was held completely vertical. The cue ball only moved in a forward direction because of the off center hit.
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I was referring to the movement of the cue stick and not the CB....also the rules are very vague and/of nonexistent so "what the hell" I start shooting with the bumper of my cue on those tuffys...LOLz
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I just read the original hit for this shot, and i wanted to reply to it.
I am a former ref in the BCA, and since the BCA and APA are socialially united...i can say that we talked about this particular shot years ago, and it was deemed that "swiping" the cue ball does not constitute a legal shot.
A legal shot is defined by making contact with the cue ball in a stroking manner.
The shot was initially illegal when the player layed the cue on the table...and the ensuing shot was further made illegal with the swiping motion of the cue.
This shot was executed at the BCA Nationals back around 1995, and the ref's, at one of the early meetings discussed it's legality, and after carefully reviewing the BCA rules...made it a foul from that point on.
Hope this helps.

Jamie Doellinger
 
JamieDoellinger said:
I just read the original hit for this shot, and i wanted to reply to it.
I am a former ref in the BCA, and since the BCA and APA are socialially united...i can say that we talked about this particular shot years ago, and it was deemed that "swiping" the cue ball does not constitute a legal shot.
A legal shot is defined by making contact with the cue ball in a stroking manner.
The shot was initially illegal when the player layed the cue on the table...and the ensuing shot was further made illegal with the swiping motion of the cue.
This shot was executed at the BCA Nationals back around 1995, and the ref's, at one of the early meetings discussed it's legality, and after carefully reviewing the BCA rules...made it a foul from that point on.
Hope this helps.

Jamie Doellinger
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Jamie - Thanks. That at least clarifies where APA and BCA stand on this type of shot. In another thread Karinann described another approach to this type of shot where a normal stroking action appeared to be used. Can you (or anybody else) comment on the legality of this shot? Her post is quoted below with a link to the thread.

"Another variation on this type of shot is to orient the cue
about 45 degrees relative to a normal straight on stroke.
Then move the cue along its axis across the cueball just
brushing the cue ball. A small drawing viewed from ABOVE
is attached below, hope it illustrates the method OK.
I used this in an 8 ball tourney in Las Vegas once and my
opponent's jaw dropped to the floor. It was witnessed by
a qualified referee and he called a good hit. Went on to
win the tourney."

You can see her diagram by following this thread and go to post No. 12.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=29965
 
showboat said:
I was referring to the movement of the cue stick and not the CB....also the rules are very vague and/of nonexistent so "what the hell" I start shooting with the bumper of my cue on those tuffys...LOLz
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Which is why there were flat spots on the butt of some snooker cues.
 
Absolutely legal.. One of my favorite shots :) ... and btw, you may want to have her audited, haha... that or she just listens to her smart coach.
 
GADawg - If i am reading the diagram true...and given pure execution...it sounds as if there is a forward motion on the cue. Thus making it a legal stroke.
There is also another variable to this shot that i introduced during our meeting - and it is a shot that i have executed many times - where i layed the tip of the cue on the table, with the butt of the cue in my hand, and elevated. I then stroked the cue forward in a slow jabbing motion to touch the very bottom radius of the cue ball, and quickly withdrawing back to not double hit the cue ball.
I did this shot many times for, at the time, Head Ref's at the BCA, and they seen no infractions with the shot.

As far as the previous mentioned shot...i would really have to see it in motion. I may be looking at the drawing, and reading the discription from a totally different perspective.

Jamie Doellinger
 
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