Is this Legal?

[Playsome]

I actually called this foul on a guy at the BCA Nationals a few years back...It was in the Mens Open Division and he was up on me 2 to 1, and was in the process of running out when he actually lined the shot up and laid the cue on the table, walking around the other side and picking the cue up to shoot the shot opposite handed. I had just read the rulebook the night before and knew it to be a foul so I called it and he argued, we had to get a ref to come and tell him it was indeed a foul. He got really really mad! Especially since I took ball in hand and got out, and then broke and got out, eventually winning the match 5 to 3! Afterwards he wouldn't even shake my hand. I don't think that is such an obscure rule. There are alot of shots that an advantage can be had by laying the cue on the table and stepping back to see if everything lines up...The trick is to do it with your body lined up also! It kind of suprised me that he did it, I've never seen anybody have to do it on the barbox, he was probably six feet tall or so.

See you guys on the table.........Marc

 

[DeadStrokeMan]

I actually called this foul on a guy at the BCA Nationals a few years back...It was in the Mens Open Division and he was up on me 2 to 1, and was in the process of running out when he actually lined the shot up and laid the cue on the table, walking around the other side and picking the cue up to shoot the shot opposite handed. I had just read the rulebook the night before and knew it to be a foul so I called it and he argued, we had to get a ref to come and tell him it was indeed a foul. He got really really mad! Especially since I took ball in hand and got out, and then broke and got out, eventually winning the match 5 to 3! Afterwards he wouldn't even shake my hand. I don't think that is such an obscure rule. There are alot of shots that an advantage can be had by laying the cue on the table and stepping back to see if everything lines up...The trick is to do it with your body lined up also! It kind of suprised me that he did it, I've never seen anybody have to do it on the barbox, he was probably six feet tall or so.

See you guys on the table.........Marc

I wasn't talking about "looking to see if the shot was ok" - but rather to gain a better position on the cue stick by walking around (only in a reach situation). But from what I've gathered - it would appear to be illegal to lay the cue down. Tonight - I had a "reach" shot .... dropped the tip end down, maintained my position of the cue with my right hand on the butt, walked around and made the shot. No way that could have been called a fould - no way.

I think most of you have mis-interpreted my intentions on the topic to begin with - it was never to STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE SHOT -but rather to gain a position on the cue stick such that I could avoid the rake.

That being given - I believe one person (only one - me thinx) actually posted some rules on the topic such that if the cue were layed down with , resting on the table with completely - a foul has occured.

 

[mjantti]

Hey, Koop, hope you're well. Sorry, I don't recall the details, but the match was Pagualyan vs Morris in Stage 2 of the 2003 of the WPC, a double-hill affair in which Morris was eliminated from the event.

I have seen the Morris - Pagulayan match and indeed Rodney Morris was aiming the angle on his kick at the 1-ball and left the cue there for half a second. Of course, referee had to call a foul, because there is a rule for that in the rule book.

You can leave the cue at the table if it's clearly not used as an aiming device, like during time-outs or if you need to wipe your hands with a towel or for whatever reason.

If my opponent would leave the cue on the table for aiming reasons I would instantly call a foul. If my opponent objects and calls me a nit-pick, I'd ask him to tell me which rules are valid and which can be bent. I think you either use the whole correct set of rules or you make your own rules. There is no grey area where you can decide which rules are to be followed and which can be disregarded. I hate people who think that rules don't somehow apply to them, just who they think they are ?!

 

[mjantti]

I wasn't talking about "looking to see if the shot was ok" - but rather to gain a better position on the cue stick by walking around (only in a reach situation). But from what I've gathered - it would appear to be illegal to lay the cue down. Tonight - I had a "reach" shot .... dropped the tip end down, maintained my position of the cue with my right hand on the butt, walked around and made the shot. No way that could have been called a fould - no way.

Yes, that's the way to do it. If you want to aim or maintain your cue position, you have to keep your hand on the cue. This is a good tip !

 

[Timberly]

I've been playing in a bar league and some of the players are fanatics about the rules!! It just drives me nuts! Some of the rules in our league are not even clear. Two lawyers would have a field day debating the veracity of them!!

Same here... one of the many reasons I got out of the league I used to play in. Here's another question since we're asking what's legal & what isn't... I've been around pool for a long time and I've never heard anyone question this or call it a foul until this last yr.... You're taking ball in hand and you place the cue ball in an area that you have to reach for with your hand but have no problem reaching with your cue. I set the cue ball down and then used the shaft of my cue to move the cue ball left or right (just a little movement. I used my hand to place it in the area I wanted it in). I never even bothered taking the time to look it up and see if it's a foul or not because I thought it was so assinine to have someone try to call this on me. There might actually be a rule against it.... My pool experience didn't come from an 8 ball bar box league. I grew up watching the gamblers and some of the guys that are champions today battle it out on the big tables..... never had I seen someone call this until I was playing in this league in a small town.....

 

[BlowFish]

you can't let go of the cue and place it on the table....period.

and i think it stated so to elimate any equivocation of the rule. rodney morris did this(and was not aiming) and was called on it.

I remember watching that particular game and Rodney was very surprise that an infraction was called on him. But rules are rules, you can't let go of your cue on the table.

BCA General Rule 3.42 states that:
"Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot., so long as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct."

 

[BlowFish]

Ok - how about this - I position the cue ...while holding the butt ..and walk around the table. The 'tip end' is resting upon the table as I walk around (assuming its even possible to hold the butt end while walking around).

BCA General Rule 3.3 STRIKING CUE BALL
"Legal shots require that the cue ball be struck only with the cue tip. Failure to meet this requirement is a foul."

 

[no-sho]

It would seeem after everyone has read the rule that thier is still a misunderstanding of the rule by a few or I'm I the one not understanding the rule. It seems crystal clear to me, I can lay my cue on the table as long as I'm not using it for some sort of aiming or gauging device. If i'm over a long shot and decide I need the bridge and lay my cue down to get the bridge which might be on the other side of the table or leaning on the wall it' a foul??? I don't think so!!!!! It could be that I'm the idiot though.

no-sho

 

[BlowFish]

Re-read the rule.....

It would seeem after everyone has read the rule that thier is still a misunderstanding of the rule by a few or I'm I the one not understanding the rule. It seems crystal clear to me, I can lay my cue on the table as long as I'm not using it for some sort of aiming or gauging device. If i'm over a long shot and decide I need the bridge and lay my cue down to get the bridge which might be on the other side of the table or leaning on the wall it' a foul??? I don't think so!!!!! It could be that I'm the idiot though.

no-sho

no-sho, you can use your cue for aiming ".....so long as the cue is held by the hand.....", otherwise, it's a foul.

 

[no-sho]

blow fish

I understand that, but that is not my point! The rule specifies that I can use my cue for aiming or guaging as long as I keep my hand on the cue but it doesn't say that you can't lay your cue on the table period!!! Case in point if I lay my cue down to get the bridge and did not use it for aiming or gauging it is not a foul otherwise the rule would be specific and say you are never allowed to lay your cue on the table and remove your hand, ending all arguements: I hate to repeat myself but the rule says you cannot remove your hand if you're aiming or gauging, end of story!

no-sho

 

[Shorty]

To me...

The point is that if you are going to lay your cue down on the table, to get a bridge, to take a leak...or whatever...make dang sure it does not fall in line with the shot or could be construed (sp?) that way. Now does that make sense?

Shorty

 

[DeadStrokeMan]

BCA General Rule 3.3 STRIKING CUE BALL
"Legal shots require that the cue ball be struck only with the cue tip. Failure to meet this requirement is a foul."

Did someone say the CB would be struck with anything other that the cue? Read the posts - no one - including me, said anything about striking the CB in any other method than normal. The entire subject was about "lining up" and whether laying the cue stick on the table was legal (to walk around to the other side of the table).

It's probably also illegal to use LASOR beams on the table

 

[BlowFish]

On another note

I understand that, but that is not my point! The rule specifies that I can use my cue for aiming or guaging as long as I keep my hand on the cue but it doesn't say that you can't lay your cue on the table period!!! Case in point if I lay my cue down to get the bridge and did not use it for aiming or gauging it is not a foul otherwise the rule would be specific and say you are never allowed to lay your cue on the table and remove your hand, ending all arguements: I hate to repeat myself but the rule says you cannot remove your hand if you're aiming or gauging, end of story!

no-sho

Interpret it as you please.

On another note, has anyone seen this paticular shot:

Efren Reyes was on the hill and on the 9th ball to win. Cue ball was above the spot and the 9 ball 2 inches away

START(
%AB7B9%BB2\6%CB8\7%DB8B9%EC1C0%FB6\0%GB8C1%HB7B9%II6P2%JB9B8
%KB3\4%LB6B9%MC0\7%NB4[7%OB8B9%PM0O6
)END

He placed his cue flat on the table with his right hand still on the cue where the tip was about half an inch away from the cue ball. He place his left hand using the pointing finger and thumb just below the joint hugging the cue and used his right hand to push the bumper with his palm and packet the 9 ball for the win.

That's one hell of a creative mind.

 

[BlowFish]

Understood.

Did someone say the CB would be struck with anything other that the cue? Read the posts - no one - including me, said anything about striking the CB in any other method than normal. The entire subject was about "lining up" and whether laying the cue stick on the table was legal (to walk around to the other side of the table).

It's probably also illegal to use LASOR beams on the table

I was just stating some rules to be followed. You can use you cue for aiming as long as you don't let go of it and the tip is used to hit the cue ball and it's not a continuous/double hit and you don't touch any ball and so on and so forth.

You can be as imaginative as you want to circumvent the rules and the ref sees it as not a foul, then you're good.

 

[BlowFish]

No offense meant

Did someone say the CB would be struck with anything other that the cue? Read the posts - no one - including me, said anything about striking the CB in any other method than normal. The entire subject was about "lining up" and whether laying the cue stick on the table was legal (to walk around to the other side of the table).

It's probably also illegal to use LASOR beams on the table

There was this wise ass guy I was playing with. He needed to use the rake, but was lazy to do so. So, he reversed his cue and used the bumper to hit the cue ball and packet the 9.

Was it a foul? Surely it was.

 

[no-sho]

Blow fish
Another one you missed the boat on. He didn't say anything about striking the cueball in any form at all. It was about placing the cue tip on the table while holding the cue and walking around the table with the tip rotating in a certain spot on the table which is perfectly legal. What does that have to do with striking the cueball. Please enlighten my dumdass!

 

[mjantti]

Interpret it as you please.

On another note, has anyone seen this paticular shot:

Efren Reyes was on the hill and on the 9th ball to win. Cue ball was above the spot and the 9 ball 2 inches away

Actually it was a 10 rack group match against Yang, the score was 5-3 to Yang when Efren made this shot. The commentators went nuts !! With alternative breaks, Yang made the 9 from the next break and won 6-4...

...just to get facts straight.

 

[Troy]

I think this is the rule that apples to your question ---

3.40 CUE BALL IN HAND FOUL
During cue ball in hand placement, the player may use his hand or any part of his cue (including the tip) to position the cue ball. When placing the cue ball in position, any forward stroke motion of the cue stick contacting the cue ball will be considered a foul if not a legal shot.

I would avoid using the tip since it's too easy to create "forward motion".

Troy

Same here... one of the many reasons I got out of the league I used to play in. Here's another question since we're asking what's legal & what isn't... I've been around pool for a long time and I've never heard anyone question this or call it a foul until this last yr.... You're taking ball in hand and you place the cue ball in an area that you have to reach for with your hand but have no problem reaching with your cue. I set the cue ball down and then used the shaft of my cue to move the cue ball left or right (just a little movement. I used my hand to place it in the area I wanted it in). I never even bothered taking the time to look it up and see if it's a foul or not because I thought it was so assinine to have someone try to call this on me. There might actually be a rule against it.... My pool experience didn't come from an 8 ball bar box league. I grew up watching the gamblers and some of the guys that are champions today battle it out on the big tables..... never had I seen someone call this until I was playing in this league in a small town.....

 

[Mr. Wilson]

IMO, a foul called on this would be a misinterpretation of the stated rules.

I would expect that it meant the cue must be in your hand *while* shooting and not left on the table as some kind of guide, which I think we can all agree would be just plain wrong.

If they meant that you were not allowed to ever realease the cue from your hand during an excercise such as aiming, they would clearly state that it must not leave the shooters grasp at any time.

IMHO.


Dave

 

[Timberly]

I think this is the rule that apples to your question ---

3.40 CUE BALL IN HAND FOUL
During cue ball in hand placement, the player may use his hand or any part of his cue (including the tip) to position the cue ball. When placing the cue ball in position, any forward stroke motion of the cue stick contacting the cue ball will be considered a foul if not a legal shot.

I would avoid using the tip since it's too easy to create "forward motion".

Troy

That's what I thought but wasn't sure. Thanks Troy... now I'll be able to quote "3.40" should this ever come up again.