Issues with using ratings incorrectly.

[hang-the-9]

Here is a poster from a local pool room that put a B+ player at a 600 and a B at 599. I don't know what they view the point difference, but to me the Fargo points tend to go by 100 for each level, so each -/even/+ is 33 points, given that Fargo states a player can play +-50 points normally, and it's almost impossible for someone to play a full level over their skill.

If a B+ is 600-633, means an A- is at 633, A is 666-700 and A+ is a 700-733. That leaves no gap at all between an A+ player and a Pro player according to this, but the common agreement is that after A+ is an A++ and maybe even A+++ or Open players. Using your own rating instead of the correct rating ends up taking out a level of skill from the ratings. This poster is about a full 50 points off on their rating ideas to go by logic to be able to fit all the skill levels in correctly.

Looking it from say a league rating, APA maxes out at 9, I'm a 550 and play even with many of the APA 9s I play with. According to this, I am barely a B player, so they are saying that a basic B or B- player can be a 9 in the APA. That makes a C+ player an 8. Anyone see a C+ player be an 8 in APA 9 ball? Extending this further, a C- player can be a 6 or a 7, which means a D, an almost beginner, can be a 4 or a 5. I don't know any beginner players shooting at a 4 or 5 level even in the APA.

Friends don't let friends make up their own rating systems.

 

[9BallKY]

Almost every TD has a different way of rating players. I was denied entry into a 615 and entry tournament even though my rating was like 594 at the time.

My son used to play in a C+ tournament and there was a guy with a 677 rating that played in several of them. He never did even cash in any of them. His rating at the time was 705 but that was a couple years ago and since it has came down to 677.

I know of several tournaments that’s use Fargo as a base line for entry but don’t report the results to Fargo. It all depends on where you play and who the TD is.

 

[hang-the-9]

Almost every TD has a different way of rating players. I was denied entry into a 615 and entry tournament even though my rating was like 594 at the time.

My son used to play in a C+ tournament and there was a guy with a 677 rating that played in several of them. He never did even cash in any of them. His rating at the time was 705 but that was a couple years ago and since it has came down to 677.

I know of several tournaments that’s use Fargo as a base line for entry but don’t report the results to Fargo. It all depends on where you play and who the TD is.

A C+ being over a 600 is beyond ludicrous. Does anyone have common sense and logic anymore? The scale is DCBA/Open/Pro. D- at one end is a beginner, A+ at the other is an expert just under the very top where the Open and Pro levels are. We can use thinking to fill in everything in between. A 677 is easily in the expect level, he would be pretty much an A+. Using any amount of brain cells, one would see that no way can a C+ be anything other than a 450ish Fargo.

I played in a place in Florida that had almost everyone in as an A level player, they had to make a bunch of extra A levels go account for the real ratings LOL I played in it as an A-6 or something, and they had A-9s, I was told a Pro would be in as an A-12. Just silly, because they made up their own rating scale. If you had players in as a B that was a B and a C was a C instead of putting him in as an A, you don't need to have 12 levels of A players.

 

[9BallKY]

A C+ being over a 600 is beyond ludicrous. Does anyone have common sense and logic anymore? The scale is DCBA/Open/Pro. D- at one end is a beginner, A+ at the other is an expert just under the very top where the Open and Pro levels are. We can use thinking to fill in everything in between. A 677 is easily in the expect level, he would be pretty much an A+. Using any amount of brain cells, one would see that no way can a C+ be anything other than a 450ish Fargo.

I played in a place in Florida that had almost everyone in as an A level player, they had to make a bunch of extra A levels go account for the real ratings LOL I played in it as an A-6 or something, and they had A-9s, I was told a Pro would be in as an A-12. Just silly, because they made up their own rating scale. If you had players in as a B that was a B and a C was a C instead of putting him in as an A, you don't need to have 12 levels of A players.

The crazy thing was the 677 player never cashed in any of the tournaments. The TD never cared about Fargo ratings and still don’t. I played in a B tournament there earlier this year and it was won by a guy with a 725 rating. He was the only player who beat me

 

[hang-the-9]

The crazy thing was the 677 player never cashed in any of the tournaments. The TD never cared about Fargo ratings and still don’t. I played in a B tournament there earlier this year and it was won by a guy with a 725 rating. He was the only player who beat me

It not even anything to do with Faro, it's just a number to show how good a player is, and it's very recent in relation to the DCBA rating system. It's like saying a guy is super heavy, vs saying he is 400 lbs. A A+ is very good, and you would quantify that by his Fargo score to exactly how good, he is a 690. It's just whoever is doing those tournaments does not understand how the ratings work, so they make up their own scale. I likened it in another post to how the time used to be kept with each small area having their own time before the time zones came into being. It can be 7PM in your town but town next to you it's 7:35 PM, another town over its 7:45. Then they standardized time and put in time zones to allow for the sun positions which removed all the confusion. When each place has their own definition of what a B player is, that is just confusing and arbitrary, not to mention a lot of times the ratings defy logic. In your case for that B tournament, if the player is a 725, which makes him pretty much a low-level Pro, that makes a Pro a B+ or an A- player? No it does not, so the logic just breaks down immediately. So the guy running the tournament is way out of the loop and may as well call his ratings "Soup" "Car" "Pencil" instead of ABC since they make as much sense in relation to the actual skill. Whoa! Who let this Car into the Soup tournament? No one has any idea what those ratings are anymore if you do that.

 

[MattPoland]

In general ABCD needs to die. In Michigan it looks about like this.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I just pay money and play. If I don't like the promoters or the way they do things, I don't play.

If I believe I have a better idea I do it myself or talk directly with the people who are going to run it.

No need to complain, cry, winge, or bitch.

 

[9BallKY]

It not even anything to do with Faro, it's just a number to show how good a player is, and it's very recent in relation to the DCBA rating system. It's like saying a guy is super heavy, vs saying he is 400 lbs. A A+ is very good, and you would quantify that by his Fargo score to exactly how good, he is a 690. It's just whoever is doing those tournaments does not understand how the ratings work, so they make up their own scale. I likened it in another post to how the time used to be kept with each small area having their own time before the time zones came into being. It can be 7PM in your town but town next to you it's 7:35 PM, another town over its 7:45. Then they standardized time and put in time zones to allow for the sun positions which removed all the confusion. When each place has their own definition of what a B player is, that is just confusing and arbitrary, not to mention a lot of times the ratings defy logic. In your case for that B tournament, if the player is a 725, which makes him pretty much a low-level Pro, that makes a Pro a B+ or an A- player? No it does not, so the logic just breaks down immediately. So the guy running the tournament is way out of the loop and may as well call his ratings "Soup" "Car" "Pencil" instead of ABC since they make as much sense in relation to the actual skill. Whoa! Who let this Car into the Soup tournament? No one has any idea what those ratings are anymore if you do that.

The thing is when you know how the TD runs his tournaments you know what to expect when you get there. If I go there to play in a B tournament I know there is going to be at least two 700 plus players there and probably 8-10 players over 650. It’s a tough tournament. Every TD runs their tournaments a little different

 

[hang-the-9]

In general ABCD needs to die. In Michigan it looks about like this.

View attachment 708434

They forgot there is also a minus to the ratings LOL, and they made the D players too good, so they are forced into using multiple letters like BB or AA to fill in the holes they created. Again, made up their own rating vs using the known one, and caused their own issues and confusion when compared nationally. Not too hard to fix by adding in the minus ratings and dropping the D- player to a 250. Then you have a nice clear rise in skill, I think the ratings for Fargo to ABCD scale are around 100/120 points a level give or take a 20 point buffer. 300 = D, 400 = C 500 = B 600 = A, 700 = Open/A+ 730 = Open/Pro 750 = Pro 800 = top Pro. That is a bit rough but fits what I view as correct going by player skill and logically fitting the player skill into the rating without having to make up things like AAA or A-10 or having a B player be a 700 Fargo LOL

 

[Sheldon]

I've seen it happen, the TD is lazy or ignorant. If you're going to use ratings, why not use them properly?
It's not hard to use the fargo charts.

 

[MattPoland]

They forgot there is also a minus to the ratings LOL, and they made the D players too good, so they are forced into using multiple letters like BB or AA to fill in the holes they created. Again, made up their own rating vs using the known one, and caused their own issues and confusion when compared nationally. Not too hard to fix by adding in the minus ratings and dropping the D- player to a 250. Then you have a nice clear rise in skill, I think the ratings for Fargo to ABCD scale are around 100/120 points a level give or take a 20 point buffer. 300 = D, 400 = C 500 = B 600 = A, 700 = Open/A+ 730 = Open/Pro 750 = Pro 800 = top Pro. That is a bit rough but fits what I view as correct going by player skill and logically fitting the player skill into the rating without having to make up things like AAA or A-10 or having a B player be a 700 Fargo LOL

I’ve never seen a minus to ratings be used in Michigan. There are so few D tournaments that when they did have one I don’t think I ever even saw D+ used. They just throw them all in together and say “go have fun you little rascals.”

And a lot of it is certainly regional. Wisconsin ratings are way different. Their cutoff for Cs is a lot lower. Most Michigan Cs are Wisconsin Bs. I think Michigan pre-Fargo had a tendency of people whining to keep their rating low. “I haven’t cashed in anything, why should I be moved up.” That’s why the pluses exist was to let people stay in the bracket but need to give up a game (or limit you to only one plus per team).

That’s why Michigan never needed minuses. It wasn’t driven to create them organically. Same reason BBs exist was people whining that they weren’t an A. BB really is A- because they play with the As and get a game. Pre-Fargo there were a ton of people in brackets they shouldn’t be in.

 

[MattPoland]

I've seen it happen, the TD is lazy or ignorant. If you're going to use ratings, why not use them properly?
It's not hard to use the fargo charts.

I think a lot of small/regional tournament directors are hesitant to have vary their race lengths by much for uncertainty the event will progress predictably.

 

[Sheldon]

I think a lot of small/regional tournament directors are hesitant to have vary their race lengths by much for uncertainty the event will progress predictably.

Yeah, possibly. The matches progress pretty well though, in my experience.

 

[SEB]

I've seen it happen, the TD is lazy or ignorant. If you're going to use ratings, why not use them properly?
It's not hard to use the fargo charts.

It actually IS hard to use FargoRate... The FargoRate app doesn’t spell it out for you, has nonfunctional features, and is not user friendly or educational at all.

Your charts here are better and more explanatory than anything on the app.

 

[Sheldon]

It actually IS hard to use FargoRate... The FargoRate app doesn’t spell it out for you, has nonfunctional features, and is not user friendly or educational at all.
Your charts here are better and more explanatory than anything on the app.

Yeah, it would be a pain to have to look up every match in the app. I'm not sure why the charts are not much more easily accessed or widespread.
It would take a little time, but wouldn't be very hard to create a chart to suit a particular tournament or its director.
I pulled the one I shared off of facebook years ago.

FargoRate

Here are some race charts using HOT handicaps. Typically a handicapped tournament might specify a chart and a handicap level, like Chart R3 - HOT, and then individual races are determined from R3...

www.facebook.com

 

[hang-the-9]

It actually IS hard to use FargoRate... The FargoRate app doesn’t spell it out for you, has nonfunctional features, and is not user friendly or educational at all.

Your charts here are better and more explanatory than anything on the app.

I have print-outs of the charts folded in my case LOL

I am going to print them out also for my local pool hall, our in-house league uses Fargo and the players are liking it a lot. They are playing head to head matches using the Fargo handicaps for fun outside of league and it's working out very well, most of the sets are right on the spot. My son is playing a 60-8 race with someone over several days LOL, so far he is up 10-1 which is about right in line with the prediction.

 

[easy-e]

A C+ being over a 600 is beyond ludicrous. Does anyone have common sense and logic anymore? The scale is DCBA/Open/Pro. D- at one end is a beginner, A+ at the other is an expert just under the very top where the Open and Pro levels are. We can use thinking to fill in everything in between. A 677 is easily in the expect level, he would be pretty much an A+. Using any amount of brain cells, one would see that no way can a C+ be anything other than a 450ish Fargo.

I played in a place in Florida that had almost everyone in as an A level player, they had to make a bunch of extra A levels go account for the real ratings LOL I played in it as an A-6 or something, and they had A-9s, I was told a Pro would be in as an A-12. Just silly, because they made up their own rating scale. If you had players in as a B that was a B and a C was a C instead of putting him in as an A, you don't need to have 12 levels of A players.

You've been pushing the ABCD system for years on here. Even Mike Page made a lengthy post once (with examples from different regions) showing you why it's not some universally accepted system. It's only "common sense" to you, and maybe the other players in your area. Fargo is the way to go, even if we have to wait a while before it is in every pool hall.

 

[hang-the-9]

You've been pushing the ABCD system for years on here. Even Mike Page made a lengthy post once (with examples from different regions) showing you why it's not some universally accepted system. It's only "common sense" to you, and maybe the other players in your area. Fargo is the way to go, even if we have to wait a while before it is in every pool hall.

I am not pushing for the system, just for proper use of it so there is no confusion going from pool hall to pool hall and finding out that an A player in one place is a C player in another, or everyone is an A player, but some are A players and others are A+++gold-star purple-tier players.
Not sure why it's hard to figure out how the progression goes, D- is bad, A+ is very good, but bellow a Pro player; fill in the middle using known skill and logic, pretty simple if we stop the stubbornness of using whatever the local room decided to do. It's about as bad as the random bar rules we run across, there is no good logic to them, they are used because Billy Bob did it 30 years ago and then Billy Joe learned it from him and he taught the other guy.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I am not pushing for the system, just for proper use of it so there is no confusion going from pool hall to pool hall and finding out that an A player in one place is a C player in another, or everyone is an A player, but some are A players and others are A+++gold-star purple-tier players.
Not sure why it's hard to figure out how the progression goes, D- is bad, A+ is very good, but bellow a Pro player; fill in the middle using known skill and logic, pretty simple if we stop the stubbornness of using whatever the local room decided to do.

So, do you talk to the people who run the tournaments and have actual conversations or just complain off to the side?

 

[hang-the-9]

So, do you talk to the people who run the tournaments and have actual conversations or just complain off to the side?

It usually goes like this, I enter as a B+ player because that is what I am then see someone else as a B that should be an A, I tell them "this guy is not a B player because of this and than reasons" the reply is "well he is a B player here". I give up a spot to a guy that shoots better than me because when they say B they actually mean "our local definition of a B" that is an A using the scale logically. It's like going to a fabric store, ordering a yard of cloth, getting two feet and being told that "our local yard is two feet". Or when an Amish guy tells you he bowls a 270, except it's over 15 frames not 10 LOL.

Or another example, if we use DCBA for a person's height, D- would be the very short of the scale, say 4' 10" which is the limit at which a dwarf height would be, and say 7" at the other side. That is about the full range of human sizes down to like 1% or less. So we set 4' 10" as a D-, 7 feet as an A+ and we can fit the rest in the middle. If we have some local island where people are only 5' 10" to 6' 6" and they make their local shortest person as a D-, now their "shortest" measurement is a foot taller than what the standard is, and things get confusing. Sure, we have many short people they tell you, but when you see them, they are all almost 6 feet tall, obviously not "short".