If I was Thomas I would construe that as a threat.
Ivory Ban 2014 - June 9th Meeting Results
- Thread starter Joe Barringer
- Start date
If I was Thomas I would construe that as a threat.
Chris,
You're absolutely correct. However, I don't "assume", I state fact.
There were many Asian buyers at the shows and many of them had their cues confiscated BUT.... I'm not talking about many Asian buyers. I am discussing one Asian buyer in particular - Lucky. The culprits who participated in Lucky's import/export scheme are the real problem and who brought the light upon the whole ivory issue in cues. The reason I'm bringing this out is due to TW who ignorantly believes we're the reason for the ban and I quote, “but when guys like you break the import/export laws and get caught”, so you can all thank him for not knowing when to keep his trap shut and uttering nonsense.
The cue makers in question were arrogant and in your face. They stuck it up the government's butt with how outrightly blatant they were. In fact, they discovered exactly how to circumvent the entire system and where not to ship cues and how not to do it. TW is aware of the exact shipping methods these culprits used to defeat the export process. We all know it was done, we all know who did it and we all know why they did it. Furthermore, whether they shipped them or Lucky came in to pick them up as he did on occasion, they were a party to the scheme because they knew well where the cues were going and how they were getting there.
You see early on, many cuemakers were shipping the cues out of the USA to Lucky in Japan. Lucky in turn was displaying them on his web site for the whole world to see as if nothing was wrong and as though it was perfectly legal. There were ivory raids in 2004 (Ohio) which started the ball rolling. That raid led to the Skokie Clowns raid in 2006. By 2008 or so, the word was out not to ship cues to Lucky and from that point forward Lucky was coming into the states to do the leg work. Eventually the whole scheme fell apart as did the market and Lucky rode off into the sunset.
So, you see it was the many cue makers themselves who brought all this upon us. Cue makers like TW. And the more TW persists, the more enlightened the world will become. He needs to know when to keep his trap shut, the self righteous pompous (fill in the blank) or Click Here.
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Actually, Joe, I never HAVE shipped a cue to Japan - ivory or otherwise. Never had to or wanted to and I have no idea how anyone else did it either. Lucky has never bought a cue directly from me, and my Japanese customers who HAVE bought from me have always done so at cue/billiard shows.
Thank you, however, for publicly accusing me of a crime I've never committed. Between that untrue (and therefore unprovable) accusation and the derogatory statements you've published about me on your website I'm sure I have enough for a successful counter-suit - should you ever follow through with your threats. You're probably not aware of it, Joe, but you don't seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer.
TW
It doesn't hold water and I said what I had to say but...
We have it on very good authority that you have shipped cues to Japan. Let's put that aside. You admit having Japanese customers and you admit selling to them at "cue/billiard shows". So, what did you think they were going to do with them; play long distance pool. You were fully aware and an accomplice in the import/export scheme just by selling to them. And, if you don't believe that, you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Derogatory statements? You're the one who started the whole damn thing by not being able to take a joke about the 'Merry Wayne Patriots'.
And one more thing Tommy Boy.... lawsuits in many cases are not about who is right, who is wrong or who has the stronger case. It's about breaking your opponent. Once again, perhaps you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
The brain cells I burned out, you have yet to grow. Let's move on.
Aside from the fingerpointing, My question to whomever is, What is the Elephant Protection Association actual plan? Just going to meetings that are already decided against them, or is there a plan to fight this in the courts? Before I give money, I want to know if this association will actually make a difference. To me, going to those meetings is a waste of time and money as the powers that be, seem to already have their agenda set. The next step should be EVERYONE contacting their US senators / Representatives and their local offices of the FW and barrage them with public outrage, followed by threats of Court Challenges, and then followed with actual action if this goes into effect.
Just my 2 cents from the cheap seats...
BTW Thanks to Joe for bringing the lack of progress to our attention, rather than leaving it to behind the scenes.
Dave
Just my 2 cents from the cheap seats...
BTW Thanks to Joe for bringing the lack of progress to our attention, rather than leaving it to behind the scenes.
Dave
Well of course you want to move on now, Joe.. I have published nothing libelous about you but you've published PLENTY libelous about me. Anything I've posted here is thoroughly available (and therefore proven) in public records, so your frivolous lawsuit wouldn't even survive preliminary motions. Forget about defending myself in Florida, I wouldn't have to leave my own house to make you go away. But you have truly libeled me, in deed and in spirit, and that's a completely different matter. Furthermore, I know for an absolute fact you cannot prove (or even demonstrate the likelihood) that I've EVER shipped a cue to Japan - so good luck trying.
More importantly, do you really want to sit in a deposition, under oath, detailing all the minutiae of your entire criminal history, various aliases, and other sordid details - all for potential public record? You've got no Fifth Amendment rights to fall back on in a civil case, Joe, so I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one.
As for "breaking your opponent", I prevailed in the last lawsuit I filed, and my opponent's wealth would make whatever you've got look like pocket lint. They thought they'd break me too, but they found out different.
Now, feel free to post the last word you so desperately need. I'll just be here copying and archiving.
TW
Actually, Dave, that IS the current next step - which you'd know had you bothered to join the effort. No financial contribution is required to get on the Elephant Protection Association's email list - simply go to the website and click on the "JOIN" button.
As for what our plan is, would you really expect to be handed the complete strategy in a public forum? If it's not enough to realize that the founders and core members have their very livelihoods to lose in this battle, and are fighting with everything they can... then maybe EPA membership isn't for you.
Administrative law is a very complex subject, and fighting an unfair and unconstitutional regulation requires a good amount of knowledge as to how the system works and what is necessary to fight it.
Contrary to what you say, the "first step" is to be actively and openly involved in the various "comment periods" required by the Administrative Procedures Act ("APA"). While you see that step as "just going to meetings that are already decided against them", it's actually very necessary. Another important step is to register one or more "Request
Under the rules governing administrative law the single fastest way to have a legal challenge thrown out of court is "failure to exhaust all administrative remedies" before raising a legal challenge - something you would know if you knew what you think you know.
Again, if you want to join a group working hard to defeat this ban then I recommend you do so. On the other hand, if you first want some guarantee of success before joining then maybe it's better if you sit this one out. If we lose it won't be for not giving it everything we've got, and if we win you will benefit no matter what.
TW
Tom,
Yes, sue me! Let's do depositions! I'd love to see you sweat and squirm under the pressure as your skeletons come out. Now, you're a lawyer too! I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you have a fool for a client. You are so full of yourself it's amazing you have an Yvette in your life.
You keep harping on the same crap; get a life! You're so pompous! What I will say is that I have two concealed weapons permits in two states which are hardly given to criminals as you allege. This fact is widely known throughout the billiard world. I won't deny that I've had an exciting life (unlike you) but the permits speak volumes on my behalf. I stand by all my statements about you including your thievery, verbal abuse of customers, lies and innuendo.
I stand behind what was published on our web site including the complimentary picture of you. I think it makes you look more natural. Thank you Larry Flint for defending our rights for that satire.
You’ve sent SPAM email to fellow cue makers about us. You’re not a man and I stand by that. You were the culprit.
You have purposely published libelous material about us in a forthright and in an underhanded purposeful backhanded manner on here and on other forums as well. Your antics have been “copied and archived”. You are purposely trying to hurt our business. Let me know how that works out for you.
I truly believe you libeled us with your statements like “smuggled and “illegal ivory” to name just two. So, what do we do? Well you can file a law suit against me or me against you. Depositions are fine with me as I have nothing to hide. Do you want to be deposed! The skeletons run deep in your life too. Your call or we can continue this. You libeled me; perhaps I libeled you. Most people would call that even. I'm fine with leaving this thread up for eternity and then we can just move on.
I have a better idea. Next time you're in Florida, stop by as you did last time and we can discuss this face-to-face like men. Or do you just enjoy being a man just sitting there in your underwear fondling your cues. (where do I come up with this stuff)
Tom – you need to ride off into the sunset. Let me know when you're done.
To Dave38:
Oh and one more thing – Dave38 asked a valid question as a concerned citizen and you answered in a condescending tone and manner.
Dave, email the people at EPA and have them put you on their mailing list for updates so you can monitor their activity. Then, at some point you can make a more informed decision about donations. That should have been TW answer but he has no people skills. Was it that hard to provide a humanistic answer.
News Flash
Click On Over For Our Updated Version Of the Thomas Wayne Story
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Mr. Wayne, I'd be happy to join this association If I feel it's the right basket to put my money into, but I put forth a real question, in my own words, and you speak to me like I'm an idiot. I have asked the same of various gun advocacy groups, and have received really nice answers and explanations, and treated like a person and I have contributed and they have done well to protect my rights. They have never come off as pompous azz's like you have in this thread. You answered me like a di#k....thanks, but no thanks. All you have really done on this subject, on a couple of forums is ridicule people and say, we have top people working on it, and it seems to be a big secret and only you're in the know and everyone else with an opinion is an idiot or stupid. Maybe someone else from your group should come on here and reply to our questions, as your not doing anything good for that group, and only doing name calling and threatening lawsuit bullshit and doing a pissing contest with Joe. I do have a really good grasp of what it takes to get things done, so I do take offense at your condescending attitude. I personally don't use ivory, (no really good reason, just don't) but I do believe in our rights to use a legally gotten product, and don't like the government taking our rights away in small chunks like this. But I also don't want to spend what little money I can spare to fund an association that has no real agenda stated other than' we want to refocus efforts on a strategy that will actually save elephants'. That's a nice thought, but doesn't sound anything like a real plan. Sounds more like what a liberal group would say just before they take your money and then say sorry, didn't work out. The fact that their only apparent spokesman here is you with a severely condescending attitude and an axe to grind along with it doesn't help either. The fact that your pissed off at Joe for posting this in the first place sends a message also...wouldn't you want to post the meetings results here with cuemakers? Keep them informed? Sometimes people of all types have to band together no matter what...to win the battle to win the war... people like you will split the support and will have a hand in losing the war. Just my views.
(from a no name cuemaker)
Dave
This is typical behavior. I like Joe and his straight forward way he deals with things. Straight forward and blunt. Joe put out good info, whether second hand or not, was informative. Mr. Wayne as always has to be the center of attention and belittle others in his special little way. It is clear Mr. Wayne does not like Joe. We get it already. Honestly from the ask the cue maker round table from Tar, I wasn't to impressed with you Mr. Wayne, as you were doing the same type of belittling there also and seem to want center stage.
This is what hurts pool the most in my opinion. Instead of sharing info, and being mentors, people like Mr. Wayne would rather belittle people. It is sad really, you have talent at cue making, But from your posts and hearing you speak, I for one would not value your cues as much.
Some ego's are just to large, while others are more humble. Just my 2 cents, take it , leave it, or belittle me as well. Ivory sales and the new laws WILL damage the cue business as a whole. Especially many high end maker's that have built with Ivory as their go to bread for years. It will freeze the value of such cues in their particular area and state, such damaging the true value or market value of such cues.
I also hope they get this resolved and work it out to where many people will not suffer from a total ban.
This is what hurts pool the most in my opinion. Instead of sharing info, and being mentors, people like Mr. Wayne would rather belittle people. It is sad really, you have talent at cue making, But from your posts and hearing you speak, I for one would not value your cues as much.
Some ego's are just to large, while others are more humble. Just my 2 cents, take it , leave it, or belittle me as well. Ivory sales and the new laws WILL damage the cue business as a whole. Especially many high end maker's that have built with Ivory as their go to bread for years. It will freeze the value of such cues in their particular area and state, such damaging the true value or market value of such cues.
I also hope they get this resolved and work it out to where many people will not suffer from a total ban.
http://duckbeater.tumblr.com/post/56991521622/do-you-morons-understand-that-some-notes-on
When I google pool cues and illegal ivory.. this is what I find. The only time I have seen the Atlas situation is usually in reference from Cue Components. I have seen only a few complaints about ivory shown on websites featuring pool cues, or even pool cues mentioned in general, and there are literally thousands of pages of cues, and pro-elephant websites.
I would be very careful playing the blame game..... For the record.. google "ivory in pool cues" just check out the first 4 pages. Tell me what you see.
I do believe the fight is probably lost, and probably was never able to be won. The minds were made up before this even started. There are going to be some very large collections in storage till the elephants make a come back, or are no longer here. Not just cues, ivory has been used in a lot of collected items. I have read from collectors of chess sets, netsuke, and canes and the money they have spent rivals that of some cue collectors, and they aren't happy either.
JV
When I google pool cues and illegal ivory.. this is what I find. The only time I have seen the Atlas situation is usually in reference from Cue Components. I have seen only a few complaints about ivory shown on websites featuring pool cues, or even pool cues mentioned in general, and there are literally thousands of pages of cues, and pro-elephant websites.
I would be very careful playing the blame game..... For the record.. google "ivory in pool cues" just check out the first 4 pages. Tell me what you see.
I do believe the fight is probably lost, and probably was never able to be won. The minds were made up before this even started. There are going to be some very large collections in storage till the elephants make a come back, or are no longer here. Not just cues, ivory has been used in a lot of collected items. I have read from collectors of chess sets, netsuke, and canes and the money they have spent rivals that of some cue collectors, and they aren't happy either.
JV
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I did and this item is as truthful as it gets - http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougban...-ivory-rules-put-elephants-at-increased-risk/
What the Skokie clowns pled guilt to is beyond comprehension in comparison to the misdemeanor we pled to but we're chastised because I'm vocal, which is fine. I feel as though I help those people who would ordinarily have no life to feel as though they do have a life. It provides them with a sense of importance and self worth so we're happy to be able to assist them in their otherwise mundane lives.
Here's the links to the Skokie Bozo's.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2012/pr0110_01a.pdf
http://www.fws.gov/midwest/news/495.html
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You're not chastised because your vocal, your chastised because you're not the best when it comes to making smart choices when all the facts are laid on the table.
Atlas is in a predominately blue (liberal) state where they were basically given two options in all likely hood and took the lesser of two evils. Florida on the other hand has been primarily a red state and could care less about what you actually did. However had you been caught smuggling ivory and tobacco in NY, you would be in Sing Sing or Attica at the moment.
BUT now get back to websites... Do you really think that Lucky's, Grassleys, Dick Abbott, or our cues sites does more to hurt ivory usage than some guy standing there holding two tusks looking like Speedy Gonzales after ripping out two incisors from a cat? Seriously, then on top of that talking about how much money you'll pay for them, which btw ANYONE with half a brain will connect the dots and know if you're paying the best, you're making a killing off of them. Really Joe, don't you think that is the case?
You don't think toning down your website AFTER getting caught selling internationally (Smuggling) wouldn't have been in order? What your doing is saying look at me they caught me, I pled out, and I am going to do it again. If you cannot make the connection then my friend, you truly have ZERO sense.
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2014/06/meryl_streep_urges_christie_to_sign_ivory_trafficking_bill_into_law.html#incart_most-comments
JV
Atlas is in a predominately blue (liberal) state where they were basically given two options in all likely hood and took the lesser of two evils. Florida on the other hand has been primarily a red state and could care less about what you actually did. However had you been caught smuggling ivory and tobacco in NY, you would be in Sing Sing or Attica at the moment.
BUT now get back to websites... Do you really think that Lucky's, Grassleys, Dick Abbott, or our cues sites does more to hurt ivory usage than some guy standing there holding two tusks looking like Speedy Gonzales after ripping out two incisors from a cat? Seriously, then on top of that talking about how much money you'll pay for them, which btw ANYONE with half a brain will connect the dots and know if you're paying the best, you're making a killing off of them. Really Joe, don't you think that is the case?
You don't think toning down your website AFTER getting caught selling internationally (Smuggling) wouldn't have been in order? What your doing is saying look at me they caught me, I pled out, and I am going to do it again. If you cannot make the connection then my friend, you truly have ZERO sense.
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2014/06/meryl_streep_urges_christie_to_sign_ivory_trafficking_bill_into_law.html#incart_most-comments
JV
I’m not good at making smart choices; I won’t dignify that with a reply.
Atlas is blue, Florida is red, Sing Sing, Attica prison. Wow you’re great at setting the stage as misinformed as you are. It had no bearing whether we were in Florida, Illinois, California, New York or Alabama. It was a Federal issue. The Feds did not have nor could they prove any purchasing or selling of any illegal ivory and this is common knowledge. We didn’t “smuggle” or own any “illegal ivory", yet this does not serve the anti Barringer forces. We get that. There are a lot of ignorant people out there.
We had all legal ivory as was stated by the Feds and the only thing we lacked was an export and re-export certificate. Do you get that. We lacked a permit. We pled guilty to a misdemeanor for not having a permit. That was it; period. They tried to make it more than it was but had no evidence of any wrong doing other than shipping 3 cues to England without a permit.
Next up – I don’t know why you felt the need to involve people that were never an issue with any of this. Grassley, Abbott or Costello were never mentioned so I don't know why you felt the need to include them. I mentioned one name - Lucky. And yes, I believe Luckys web site did the most harm with mega dollar illegally exported/imported cues displayed on a web site in Japan stating that the USA made ivory cues were purchased by him and were now in Japan and for sale. How did they get there? DUH! There were pictures blasted all over the place showing the cues and him sitting there with them as the proud owner. We have the pictures printed out from the web site showing them back then. Some pretty impressive cues. Let’s not play dumb here; you know it as well. Lucky was instrumental for making many cue makers famous. Hey, the import/export scheme lasted a long time and Lucky got away with it. Years later the chickens are coming home to roost and the loudest, most vocal opponents are the ones who were the biggest offenders. Tell them to look in the mirror and not point their finger at us for their greed and illegal activity that many of them were guilty of.
As far as me standing there like speedy Gonzales. I don’t think there was a need for condescending name calling but I can’t expect anything other than that. After all this is billiards. So, on that note, I don’t see anything wrong with it. The tusks are legal, we’re not doing anything wrong and we are entitled to market our wares however we damn well choose. What we pay has no bearing on anything; it’s America and a free market. However, displaying ivory laden cues made in the USA for sale in Japan on a web site in Japan where all the cues are from USA cue makers – now that’s the real problem! Wouldn't you agree? Well, that actually took place and we all know it so stop pointing fingers.
If buying and selling pre ban ivory was so simple there would be many more doing it. Truth is, few have the knowledge and cash to lay out and inventory the material and then wait for a buyer. Sort of like you buying a cue for $12k and selling it for $15k or $25k. We’re all entitled to make a profit otherwise we wouldn’t be doing it so I failed to see your point nor do I care to see it at this point.
Then, as misinformed as you are, you talk about me toning it down “AFTER getting caught selling internationally (Smuggling) wouldn't have been in order”?
The answer is absolutely not because we never “smuggled” anything but you and others like you are either too ignorant or don’t wish to see the truth because it doesn’t serve your agenda whatever that may be.
The Feds raided us with over 40 agents and conducted a 3 year long investigation and the best they could come out with was a misdemeanor for not having a permit. You bet your damn ass we have the good sense to display our wares and we do.
We find it incredible that ignorant people still feel the need to call it "illegal ivory”, "smuggled" etc when our own Government never used those words. But, be that as it may, I'm done now and time to count some cash so I can whistle and smile all the way to the bank in the morning. It's a wonderful business when done correctly and we do it correctly. Our friends in Skokie on the other hand no longer sell ivory and were caught with their pants down for their acknowledge “illegal” activity.
Perhaps if we spell it out as quoted from the Feds own agreement with us, press releases and news clippings, maybe some will become enlightened.
1) The plea agreement said there isn't evidence to establish whether or not the ivory was illegally smuggled into the U.S., though Barringer obtained statements from sellers indicating the ivory he bought was lawful. Hmmm, nothing illegal there
2) Barringer was charged with a misdemeanor violation of the Endangered Species Act for knowingly engaging in trade of ivory specimens, contrary to the provisions of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), and without a CITES export permit and re-export certificate as a result of his sale of the pool cue containing ivory to the undercover officer in England. Hmmm, only not having a permit huh
3) No sentencing has been announced but the charge is a misdemeanor violation... Hmmm, misdemannor huh
The anti Barringer forces feel the need to lie, and use innuendo to cast doubt with "illegal ivory", "smuggling", "criminal record" and the rest of the nonsense.
BTW….
You complained about us showing our wares; do you see anything wrong with this picture of Warther displaying his wares. It’s standard practice in the business to display what we are dealing in and give the customer a sense of security. We do it on a larger scale. Don't fault us for being successful.
FYI, here’s the AZ story on the Skokie clowns:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=259823
And, here is what the Feds stated in their plea agreement with the Bozo’s. Notice the word "illegal" as in what they did and pled to.
”During the course of a Fish and Wildlife Serive investigation into ATLAS’ illegal wildlife shipments, the Fish and Wildlife Service expended approximately $1,428 in official funds to purchase wildlife products that were illegally shipped by ATLAS”.
So, you see my friend it was the Bozo's who participated in illegal activity and paid the $160k fine. Us, a simple misdemeanor for not having a permit and we're still selling the stuff whereas they were prohibited. And BTW - Warther was their supplier when they were illegally shipping it all over the world. And you don't think their investigation went right back to Ohio! Actually, it went from Ohio to the Bozo's but few people know that.
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Amazing how the Man with all the bs and fingerpointing has remained silent for about 24 hours now.........must be busy with all the secret meetings....I would like an apology, but that doesn't seem to happen with his highness. He is quick to cut down someone that disagrees with him, but really slow to do anything else. He may build a beautiful cue, but seems to be deficient in building anything in the realm of trust and respect. I really hope he isn't the one to negotiate or challenge the ongoing battle over the ivory ban, if so...we're f$%Ked
Dave
Dave
I for one find this whole Ivory Ban thing to be overkill on the government's part. They now want to use the RICO act to prosecute violators like they were career criminals involved with the mob. I have seen how RICO has been misapplied to take people's cars and homes when the charged have made a profit from some illegal activity. Often they take people's only mode of transportation for possession of illegal substances whether they were selling it or not. That is over stretching the use of RICO.
So think about it. You have a pool cue or other ivory collection that was perfectly legal to sell last year and next month you could possibly lose your home and all assets you own if you sell it, if they over aggressively prosecute you.
I have already quit selling any Ivory in cues until I find out what kind of proof of preban status they will require.
So think about it. You have a pool cue or other ivory collection that was perfectly legal to sell last year and next month you could possibly lose your home and all assets you own if you sell it, if they over aggressively prosecute you.
I have already quit selling any Ivory in cues until I find out what kind of proof of preban status they will require.
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If someone were let's say, importing illegal ivory in sacks of coffee and the Feds decided this was part of a larger ongoing illegal enterprise then yes, RICO would most certainly apply.
If this was Charlie Cue Maker from Bumfork, Iowa selling a $1000 cue then it's doubtful that the Feds would apply RICO unless it was part of a continuing ongoing enterprise to market illegal ivory.
We have been in communications with our attorney, FWS, dealers, artisans, etc over the past couple months. We are going to continue business as usual through the June 26th date as noting has changed for us and all of you out there. If fact, we were told by another dealer that the almighty grand Poohbah up in Ohio, is also resuming sales.
What type of proof did you have and/or provide 6 months ago? Well, that's what you need to provide today. Same law, same proof. The 'use after' clause doesn't apply to us as we don't buy post ban and 'use after' never existed for pre ban. Therefore, you cannot supply something that never existed nor is required as per the new regulation for pre ban.
Interstate sales as usual until further notice. No restrictions as of today.
I don't live far from Bumfork, Iowa. Its just across the border from where I'm at in Nebraska. Charlie is a pretty good guy...
So Joe since it was just a case of missing paperwork.. Did you get all your ivory back? Your cigars? or did they have Cuban Cites paperwork?
JV
JV