Ivory Cue Joints

[Bavafongoul]

This same thread is posted in the Main Forum.......FYI.
It just seems like the Cue-Maker Section should be a more knowledgeable Forum.

There are two types of ivory cue joints in my opinion........Flat Faced & Piloted.

I know that there are ivory sleeve over steel cue joints but I view those to be faux ivory joints. Frankly, I 'd rather have
a joint made of Juma instead of an ivory sleeve if I had to choose between the two. But ivory cue joints have become
a pre-requisite for me and personally speaking, it's the only cue joint for me nowadays.

As you can see, I own a flat faced ivory joint Scruggs cue......Wow.....what an amazing hit and feel. I also own a Paul
Mottey cue that has one of his famous "piloted" ivory cue joints.......incredible play & feel as well. I have a new custom
being made that's due to be completed by March and it has a flat faced ivory cue joint. I can't imagine what the heck an
ivory sleeve offers versus the two ivory joints I play with.

There's a difference in the feel of my Scruggs and Mottey cues and I favor the feel of the flat faced ivory joint on my
Scruggs cue over my Mottey cue just a wee bit. And both cues weigh the same & have ivory ferrules with Kamui tips so
the comparison is very fair. That's why I ordered a flat faced ivory joint for my new cue with a Kamui tip. I know what I
like and what feels best to me so when it's a winning combination, you had better stick with it.

So I am asking what does a thin ivory collar over a stainless steel joint really accomplish? Is it essentially for the cue's
overall esthetics rather than performance and feel? I mean if you want the feel of an ivory joint, why not get one instead
of a just the look of an ivory cue joint. Maybe the ivory sleeve joint is more durable? However, my Mottey cue is 23 years
old and is in "perfect" condition so obviously piloted ivory joints are very durable, or at least Mottey's are.

So my conclusion is the ivory sleeve just attempts to change the appearance of a steel joint cue. From a performance
perspective, I'm imagining that an ivory sleeve cue basically plays the same as a stainless steel piloted joint and does not
come close to the feel of a flat faced ivory cue joint and most piloted steel joints.......I say most because Paul Mottey cues
are praised about having the best piloted ivory joint made but I do not know that to be factual.

I'd appreciate any knowledgeable AZers commenting on the difference of an ivory sleeve cue joint and AZers not in the know,
chime in any way as most of us, myself included, tend to do when we find the topic of interest. Everyone is entitled to their
opinions and but the bottom-line is that some matter a lot more than others.

 

[BLACHEART42]

Your post seems as though you have thought this out very carefully....BUT you base your conclusions on faulty facts. You are definitly compairing apples to oranges. You are comparing 2 different joint designs, from 2 different Qmakers. Reguardless of the joint material or design of the joint, the 2 CUES are totally different, as far as the hit is concerned. It would be like comparing a Chevy to a Dodge, because they have the same brand of tires. Hit is a product of tip, ferrule design & material, shaft wood hardness, taper etc. Unless ALL things are equal, it is really hard to compare. In 28 years of making Qs I have made dozens of Qs from the same materials & there can be differences in the hit from one to another. There are deffinitly ones that hit better than others...JER

 

[qbilder]

IMO, joint collar material and style doesn't matter nearly as much as precision & solid adhesion between the shaft & butt. Steel joints add weight to the front and can affect balance positively or negatively, but otherwise shouldn't affect the way the cue feels upon impact. Again, IMO, if you can actually tell the difference in feel of hit between one type of joint or another, then one or both of those cues lack in quality at some level.

Things that contribute most to hit & feel are wood quality and characteristics, construction solidarity, and overall dimensions. The exception to that rule is the ferrule. The ferrule length, thickness, material type, and installation technique play as much role in feel as any other component of the cue. I have said it before & will say it again, even the bumper plays a role in how your cue feels, reacts, and even sounds. As a matter of fact, the way a cue sounds directly relates to the way it plays. It is an indicator, if you will. Don't believe it? Take the bumper from your cue & play a rack without it. I bet if you are any level of player, then you will easily note a difference. Does that mean bumperless cues are better? Nope, just different. In the end, your builder must have a knowledge of all things cue construction related in order to create an end result that is what he/she feels best.

None of us are ever quite that knowledgeable, so we instead find a formula that we prefer, and that is the type of hit our cues are known for. Other builders are what I consider "generic", meaning they build what the customer wants &/or have not yet found the formula they prefer best. And some have such a lock on their formula that they will not deviate from it no matter what. Most can deviate slightly here & there to accommodate the customer, and make up the difference in another area. Each cue has a personality as dynamic as the builder who created it.

Point being, every component factors into the hit & feel & performance of the cue. If you can actually feel the difference between a solid piloted ivory joint and an ivory sleeved over steel, then you are almost certainly attributing that difference to the wrong area. It's most likely that there are other major differences in construction quality, wood quality, and dimensions that you are ignoring or neglecting to notice, that make the up the major difference that you notice.

Of course this is all very hard to prove because no two cues are the same no matter how similar, and changing the joint from solid ivory to steel on a single cue will affect balance & weight distribution enough to fog your perception of feel. So anything I say is opinion, based only on my own experience.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Thank you qbilder for the thoughtful, expertly worded reply.
I can see there are some things I have not given sufficient
consideration which Blacherat42 was also pointing out with
his reply.

 

[cueman]

Which joint is best is totally subjective to each individual players taste.
But I would think you are pretty much right about the ivory sleeve over the stainless joint hitting like a stainless joint. The only difference would be that the Ivory would reduce the front weight of the joint, so it would still hit like stainless with a little less front weight. There may be some minute change in the hit, feel and sound, but I doubt many of us are sensitive enough to tell the difference.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Thanks Cueman.....I never considered that the ivory sleeve would render the cue a little lighter than a steel joint......excellent observation.
And so in turn, I guess that it would move/change the cue's balance point for play versus the same identical cue with a stainless steel piloted
cue joint. At that point, it would be the player to say which version felt best.