Ivory in cues, now What?

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have never seen an elephant in the wild. If they disappear just like 99% of all species that have ever existed on this planet I doubt I would shed a tear for them or in any way be affected. Polar bears too. I have never encountered a tyrannosaurus rex either. They used to be around too I heard.

Humans have a way of glorifying everything that seems bigger than us. I catch a couple of rats a week in my trap out on the back deck. Why is no one crying about them? They have feelings too. They are just under foot instead of over head. If elephants didn't want to be part of our food chain they should have armed themselves. Humans are the ultimate hypocrites. Especially soy ones.

The issue with humans currently is that we are way outside of the natural order of things when it comes to our environment. Nothing stands a chance of living with us around if we decide to go into their area. What we became with our brains and technology is nothing the balance of nature can handle. I actually think a line from the Matrix was right about what humans are, a virus. We go into a place, use it up, move to the next place, we never reach a balance with our surroundings. All the prior changes in nature were natural, with limits placed on the population growth, where they can get to for food, how many zebras can support how many lions. We travel everywhere in protected metal tubs that can fly or swim to almost any corner of land to start colonies there, rip out vegetation, we even had to make artificial hunting areas called farms to support our growth. Nope, humans are nothing like anything else ever, we are the giant meteor, glacier and super-volcano of the land.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A "taking" in the legal, constitutional sense. If the government deprives you of your property rights to something, including whether you can sell it or use it (including travel with it), it's a taking, in my opinion, and they owe you compensation.
Read the 'Regulatory Takings' section. Quite informative. Apparently they look at one having a'bundle' of property rights and just removing one straw of the bundle, selling it for example, does not amount to a reg. taking. The SC ruled this way, unanimously. https://www.animallaw.info/article/...ivory-trade-ban-united-states-and-china#stake Because you are still able to own/use/enjoy an item there is no case for a taking because you can't sell it.
 

terpdad

Registered
A "taking" in the legal, constitutional sense. If the government deprives you of your property rights to something, including whether you can sell it or use it (including travel with it), it's a taking, in my opinion, and they owe you compensation.
I understood what you meant. I took takings in property law & again on my state's bar exam. Property law is not my area, but I feel confident if you asked an attorney in your state you would find your opinion is not 100% correct.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I understood what you meant. I took takings in property law & again on my state's bar exam. Property law is not my area, but I feel confident if you asked an attorney in your state you would find your opinion is not 100% correct.
That's why we have courts and lawyers, and why we have appeals, and why even precedent is overturned. I consider the constitution to be cast in stone, but not the decisions of courts, and much less the opinions of individual lawyers (not referring to you specifically).
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's why we have courts and lawyers, and why we have appeals, and why even precedent is overturned. I consider the constitution to be cast in stone, but not the decisions of courts, and much less the opinions of individual lawyers (not referring to you specifically).
Can't go much higher than the Supreme's. They've ruled on this topic before. It was unanimous. Look, i own a cue with two ivory ferrules. I use it and enjoy it. I have zero plans to sell it but if that day ever comes it will be a face-2-face transaction. I may just give it away seeing that's how i got it in the first place.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can't go much higher than the Supreme's. They've ruled on this topic before. It was unanimous. Look, i own a cue with two ivory ferrules. I use it and enjoy it. I have zero plans to sell it but if that day ever comes it will be a face-2-face transaction. I may just give it away seeing that's how i got it in the first place.
Agreed, but SCOTUS has made some pretty bad decisions before, like Plessy v. Ferguson, and more recently Kelo. Hope springs eternal! (I haven't yet read the material you provided, but thank you!)
 

Bobjagcam

New member
As we all know, most top end cues from top end cue makers are loaded with pre ban ivory. But your loving Uncle Sam say's for the most part you can't sell that beautiful cue to a fellow American over state lines because that would be bad and wrong. So how does that affect the market value of super awesome collectible cues? Your all law abiding citizens no matter what the law..Right?? So now what if you want or need to make a sale? Civil disobedience? Suck it up butter cup? Cry like a baby? Break out that closet queen and shoot a few games? realize you just lost your ass? or?
If that is my biggest problem in life I am in good shape.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are 50 states comprising our nation, plus territories, like Puerto Rico, etc. under our jurisdiction.
Ivory is not banned in all 50 states, nor in 25 states, or even a dozen states. It is only banned in 10 states
and District of Columbia. And two of the states only ban the sale of ivory harvested from living elephants
(Oregon & Washington). Interstate sales of ivory is perfectly legal as long as the ivory is pre-ban and the
buyer and seller reside in states that allow the sale of ivory. Bottomline is if you live in a state with an ivory
ban, learn firsthand what the law says. Likelihood is you can’t sell or buy within your own state when a cue
has any ivory. There is no de minimus exception or CITES certificate that applies but read the law first. Don’t
take my word for it. Do the research. You’ll confirm what I’ve been posting on the Forum since 2015 is true.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interstate sales of ivory is perfectly legal as long as the ivory is pre-ban and the
buyer and seller reside in states that allow the sale of ivory.
That is absolutely incorrect. Are you just making this up, or did you read it somewhere? If you read it, please supply the reference.

From the Fish and Wildlife website:

The sale of African elephant ivory items across state lines (interstate commerce) is prohibited, except for items that qualify as ESA antiques and certain manufactured or handcrafted items that contain a small (de minimis) amount of ivory and meet specific criteria.

Interstate commerce is always prohibited for the following:

  • sport-hunted trophies
  • items imported under the exception for a household move or inheritance
  • items imported as law enforcement or scientific specimens
To qualify for the ESA antiques exemption, an item must meet all of the following criteria [seller/importer/exporter must demonstrate]:

A: It is 100 years or older.
B: It is composed in whole or in part of an ESA-listed species;
C: It has not been repaired or modified with any such species after December 27, 1973; and
D: It is being or was imported through an endangered species “antique port.”

D: It is being or was imported through an endangered species “antique port.”
Under Director’s Order No. 210, as a matter of enforcement discretion, items imported prior to September 22, 1982, and items created in the United States and never imported must comply with elements A, B, and C above, but not element D.

To qualify for the de minimis exception, manufactured or handcrafted items must meet (i) or (ii) and (iii) - (vii) of the following criteria:

(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use;

(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;

(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 % of the value of the item;

(iv) The ivory is not raw;

(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 % of the item by volume;

(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams; and

(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before July 6, 2016.

For items made of African elephant ivory that qualify as an ESA antique or meet the de minimis criteria, you do not need a permit from the Service to sell ivory across state lines. However, if you are offering African elephant ivory for sale, you should be prepared to provide appropriate documentation to the Service, if asked. We would also suggest that you pass along all documentation to the buyer of your elephant ivory items. For detailed information on documentation requirements, please refer to Director’s Order 210.

Some states have laws prohibiting or restricting sale of ivory. Check to make sure that you are also in compliance with local and state laws. Contact the state to check on their requirements.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jviss is correct......I was mistaken about pool cues.
He stated it correctly whereas I did not. Listen to him.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jviss is correct......I was mistaken about pool cues.
He stated it correctly whereas I did not. Listen to him.
Thank you! Now I feel bad about being so strident. The rules and laws are confusing, and unfair, in my opinion.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
The issue with humans currently is that we are way outside of the natural order of things when it comes to our environment. Nothing stands a chance of living with us around if we decide to go into their area. What we became with our brains and technology is nothing the balance of nature can handle. I actually think a line from the Matrix was right about what humans are, a virus. We go into a place, use it up, move to the next place, we never reach a balance with our surroundings. All the prior changes in nature were natural, with limits placed on the population growth, where they can get to for food, how many zebras can support how many lions. We travel everywhere in protected metal tubs that can fly or swim to almost any corner of land to start colonies there, rip out vegetation, we even had to make artificial hunting areas called farms to support our growth. Nope, humans are nothing like anything else ever, we are the giant meteor, glacier and super-volcano of the land.
Very true of most humans but not all! The native Americans knew how to live in harmony with the land and the animals they shared it with. The White man was too busy to pay attention to the knowledge they possessed and were only intent on getting them out of the way. Which they managed to do very effectively over the course of 150 years. I for one am glad to see the "Indians" regaining some independence and financial security thanks to the creation of hundreds of casinos on their "reservations." It is truly ironic that most of their income is derived from people who are descendants of their oppressors.
 

Snakewood19

New member
I have a Scruggs, two Blacks, and a Gina. What would happen if I go into a large pawn shop and said I wanted to sell them. Truthfully, I AM the original owner, had them for well over twenty years, but I have no proof. How might this play out ?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a Scruggs, two Blacks, and a Gina. What would happen if I go into a large pawn shop and said I wanted to sell them. Truthfully, I AM the original owner, had them for well over twenty years, but I have no proof. How might this play out ?
Anyone dumb enough to sell those in a pawnshop deserves whatever happens imo. Just sayin.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I have a Scruggs, two Blacks, and a Gina. What would happen if I go into a large pawn shop and said I wanted to sell them. Truthfully, I AM the original owner, had them for well over twenty years, but I have no proof. How might this play out ?
I missed where "original owner" comes into play.
 

Snakewood19

New member
I agree and I never would. I was just wondering HOW they would verify authenticity and value. I will be passing them on to my son, a Marine.
He and I USED to play before this Covid thing. now, they just stand at attention. too bad.
 

9ballscorpion

Active member
As we all know, most top end cues from top end cue makers are loaded with pre ban ivory. But your loving Uncle Sam say's for the most part you can't sell that beautiful cue to a fellow American over state lines because that would be bad and wrong. So how does that affect the market value of super awesome collectible cues? Your all law abiding citizens no matter what the law..Right?? So now what if you want or need to make a sale? Civil disobedience? Suck it up butter cup? Cry like a baby? Break out that closet queen and shoot a few games? realize you just lost your ass? or?

If you are shipping a cue within the USA to another address within the USA, then what are the odds of the package you shipped being inspected for some sort of illegal material? I think highly unlikely to get inspected, and confiscated.
 

9ballscorpion

Active member
So how is anyone going to know that there is a cue in a shipping box? I would just stay away from USPS for higher end cues in the future. How many Fed Ex overnight boxes are opened and inspected? If you are selling a $3000 cue - just do overnite Fed Ex- that does not give anyone much time to stop a box and open it for inspection.

Also, would it matter if you are sending it as a Gift? That is something you would only mark on a Customs form though.
 
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