Judd Trump, Snooker Star Using BHE

Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have noticed Judd Trump using a swipe variation of Back Hand English quite a few times, particularly on screw shots when reversing off the rail, as snooker players refer to it.

Here's an example, in shot 3 of this video at around 52 seconds. The link should take you straight to it.

https://youtu.be/0PlhkHVgqss?t=52s

I photoshopped the image below which shows his alignment prior to backswing his alignment just prior to hitting the CB. There is a significant pivot into his body with the back hand.

Note that his initial alignment is pretty much spot on for a draw shot without any side english.

While he swipes, I've noticed that on these firm shots, the swipe has negligible effect on the application of BHE.

I doubt he is aware of BHE, but he and some other players discover this method for certain shots.

Colin
 

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Colin Colenso said:
I have noticed Judd Trump using a swipe variation of Back Hand English quite a few times, particularly on screw shots when reversing off the rail, as snooker players refer to it.

Here's an example, in shot 3 of this video at around 52 seconds. The link should take you straight to it.

https://youtu.be/0PlhkHVgqss?t=52s

I photoshopped the image below which shows his alignment prior to backswing his alignment just prior to hitting the CB. There is a significant pivot into his body with the back hand.

Note that his initial alignment is pretty much spot on for a draw shot without any side english.

While he swipes, I've noticed that on these firm shots, the swipe has negligible effect on the application of BHE.

I doubt he is aware of BHE, but he and some other players discover this method for certain shots.

Colin
Click to expand...
Pretty hard to tell - he hits the shot so hard that it could just be his tip glancing off the CB from the off center hit.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Pretty hard to tell - he hits the shot so hard that it could just be his tip glancing off the CB from the off center hit.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
I downloaded the video and played it frame by frame and used photoshop overlays and the pivot is very clear, with his bridge remaining stable until the CB is struck, after which point things fly everywhere.

He is very restricted doing it this way, and has to even move his head a little as his back hand comes toward his chest to create the pivot offset.

Colin
 
It looks like a swipe to me, and a quality one at that.
His accuracy with power is up there with anyone who has ever held a cue stick in any discipline.
He strikes the cue ball so raw, reminds me of Earl on steroids.
He clears the cue as well and as natural as anyone I have ever seen.
A phenomenal talent.

Sincerely:SS
 
Patrick Johnson said:
"Raw"? Is this another one of those British terms like "pure"?

pj <- speaks 'Murcan
chgo
Click to expand...
Well, I think he is one of the best potters the world has seen, so many adjectives seem apt.

I have noticed, through study, that he doesn't use side english much, he is more a master of using speed and depth of draw to create the angles he likes to move around the table.

I would think, if he got to know a little more about this BHE swipe habit, and how to adjust for a few variables, he'd adapt it much more, to open up several more pattern positional options.

Colin
 
SmoothStroke said:
It looks like a swipe to me, and a quality one at that.
His accuracy with power is up there with anyone who has ever held a cue stick in any discipline.
He strikes the cue ball so raw, reminds me of Earl on steroids.
He clears the cue as well and as natural as anyone I have ever seen.
A phenomenal talent.

Sincerely:SS
Click to expand...
Thanks for you comment SS!

I have the advantage of having watched it in frame by frame, which is hard for me to present, without googling animations and setting up a massive 20 frame file, but what I observed is Judd pulling the cue back from his initial line to way inside, then delivering the cue to the line of sot with about 1 tip of left english, while his bridge remained almost perfectly fixed, except for about 1-2mm leftward movement of the thumb tip, which would hardly effect the cue V position in my estimation.

I would say it is a beautiful stroke, though a little cramped for my liking.

Colin
 
BHE Type of English

Several of those shots definitely appear to be a BHE type of adjustment from setup. I set up for a great deal of my spin shots for FHE as most are fairly slow and I add spin for additional distance so I really don't feel the need for BHE or the stronger stroke. I'm more comfortable with Parallel Applied English for what I do at this point but this is overwhelming evidence of the power of the BHE type of adjustment and what it can produce. Simply amazing results and a great shot maker indeed.

Thanks Colin, your point is well made.
 
336Robin said:
Several of those shots definitely appear to be a BHE type of adjustment from setup. I set up for a great deal of my spin shots for FHE as most are fairly slow and I add spin for additional distance so I really don't feel the need for BHE or the stronger stroke. I'm more comfortable with Parallel Applied English for what I do at this point but this is overwhelming evidence of the power of the BHE type of adjustment and what it can produce. Simply amazing results and a great shot maker indeed.

Thanks Colin, your point is well made.
Click to expand...
Glad you appreciate it Robin!

In US pool games there are many more softer shots where it makes sense to apply side english, and many of these require some adjustment in aim, which can be done via BHE with adjusted (thinner usually) aim, or adjustment of FHE, which is essentially the same thing.

In snooker, accuracy requirements are so high that side, when used in potting, is usually used at higher speeds, where induced throw is minimized, and part of achieving reduced throw is using a very firm stroke.

I'm not saying snooker players are experts as using side, because most of them avoid it like the plague, but there is evidence that some of them have intuitively picked up the BHE method on some shots that they regularly encounter.

I've also observe many of the top pros pivoting 1/8th to 1/4 tip for outside gearing english. Something all the expert coaches frown upon and a method that is rarely seen in the aspiring pros who are indoctrinated with hit the CB where you aim methodologies.

Many of the greats also use partial BHE, where they align with say 1/3rd tip english, then deliver the stroke with a swipe/pivot to a full tip of english.

At 3.06 in this video, Neil Robertson demonstrates this partial BHE method for applying heavy english: https://youtu.be/sUOufk8fPJw?t=3m6s

Colin
 
No doubts about gearing English

Colin,
Thank you for the YouTube examples, excellent evidence of he power of spin and the prowess of the spinner. When I have to pot to an exact line I always use Outside English for obtaining an exact line on shots using half a pocket. Makes me want to go play snooker!.

Colin Colenso said:
Glad you appreciate it Robin!

In US pool games there are many more softer shots where it makes sense to apply side english, and many of these require some adjustment in aim, which can be done via BHE with adjusted (thinner usually) aim, or adjustment of FHE, which is essentially the same thing.

In snooker, accuracy requirements are so high that side, when used in potting, is usually used at higher speeds, where induced throw is minimized, and part of achieving reduced throw is using a very firm stroke.

I'm not saying snooker players are experts as using side, because most of them avoid it like the plague, but there is evidence that some of them have intuitively picked up the BHE method on some shots that they regularly encounter.

I've also observe many of the top pros pivoting 1/8th to 1/4 tip for outside gearing english. Something all the expert coaches frown upon and a method that is rarely seen in the aspiring pros who are indoctrinated with hit the CB where you aim methodologies.

Many of the greats also use partial BHE, where they align with say 1/3rd tip english, then deliver the stroke with a swipe/pivot to a full tip of english.

At 3.06 in this video, Neil Robertson demonstrates this partial BHE method for applying heavy english: https://youtu.be/sUOufk8fPJw?t=3m6s

Colin
Click to expand...
 
Here is another example. Ronnie O'Sullivan is playing a slow rolling 7/8ths pot. At this speed, the Contact Induced Throw is significantly higher than if he were playing the same pot firm, and as such, it is prone to kicks / skids also.

Ronnie aligns pre-stroke along the blue line, which I would assume is the required line for a firm pot. During the back and forward stroke there is a pivot which eventuates in the cue following the yellow line.

Interestingly, in addition to the pivot, he drops his bridge thumb, which shifts the bridge and cue tip a little to his right, adding to the touch of outside component that his rear hand pivot contributes.

Video of the shot is here: https://youtu.be/ni19WuCIaXM?t=25m28s
25 mins 28 seconds if the link doesn't take you directly there.

I notice a lot of the top pros doing this on slow rolls and soft to medium speed stun shots 1/2 ball to 7/8th cut shots as a way of compensating for shots that have high CIT which significantly thickens the pot angle from the line of centers (LOC).

Note that I've never seen instructors teach this, but I see more of the top pros doing it than the top amateurs, who tend to strike all shots like pistons, making these shots by either aligning CCB and trying to judge the CIT, or by aligning with the OE component and straight stroking it.
 
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By way of commentary, I think this method of compensation is very intuitive. We see it in the pubs and clubs all the time with amateurs. Unfortunately, they're also doing it to try to correct poor alignment too, for all sorts of shots.

It seems some of the greats didn't care to take the advice of the instructors who try to beat this method out of most aspiring students.

This is, in fact, a practical application of BHE, with a slight twist with the thumb drop, which I doubt is essential anyway. It might be better for instructors to get a grasp of the mechanics of these adjustments, such as amount of pivot offset for different shots, different distances between CB and OB, different bridge lengths and their relation to the pivot point.... rather than just say pivoting / swiping off the aim line is always bad.
 
Colin Colenso said:
By way of commentary, I think this method of compensation is very intuitive. We see it in the pubs and clubs all the time with amateurs. Unfortunately, they're also doing it to try to correct poor alignment too, for all sorts of shots.

It seems some of the greats didn't care to take the advice of the instructors who try to beat this method out of most aspiring students.

This is, in fact, a practical application of BHE, with a slight twist with the thumb drop, which I doubt is essential anyway. It might be better for instructors to get a grasp of the mechanics of these adjustments, such as amount of pivot offset for different shots, different distances between CB and OB, different bridge lengths and their relation to the pivot point.... rather than just say pivoting / swiping off the aim line is always bad.
Click to expand...

Slight twist with the thumb drop? Erm...?:confused:
 
BHE adjustments

Colin Colenso said:
I see Ronnie does the thumb drop quite a bit, some other pros do, but less so. It's effectively a kind of front hand english. I guess this is how he adjusts to the required aim line mid-stroke.
Click to expand...

Colin,
It seems to me I read somewhere where you might have said that you found that the use of BHE did seem to need a small allowance. Perhaps the thumb drop is another way of making an allowance and BHE can be fairly sensitive to deal with but dealt with effective.
 
336Robin said:
Colin,
It seems to me I read somewhere where you might have said that you found that the use of BHE did seem to need a small allowance. Perhaps the thumb drop is another way of making an allowance and BHE can be fairly sensitive to deal with but dealt with effective.
Click to expand...
Yes Robin,
I have mentioned that BHE requires allowances, though I've never gone into complete detail, as it would bore most readers to tears and the best way I hope to present these is in video I think. I hope to produce such a video in the next year or so on a free use, copyright free, donation model... though I don't expect to profit from it... I have a biz and can't imagine coaching such things would be profitable, especially being based in Australia.

Anyway, the allowances I have referred to mainly involve adjustments in aim for throw, in bridge length for swerve and elevation and when hitting high on the CB, which causes early swerve and hence a longer effective or squerve pivot point, and because most instructor's knowledge of these aspects is so vague, they rarely even attempt to investigate the variable of induced throw.

I don't use FHE and don't think it is necessary, though I understand why some players use it. Without detailed BHE adjustment knowledge it is necessary.

I can also appreciate that players may choose to use feel, via a combination of BHE and FHE to adjust for side and even shots that throw thick, but I think in the future, the BHE related knowledge will become a fundamental in aiming adjustment for side and throw effects.

In snooker, while it requires higher accuracy, they play fewer shots with side english than the pool games. That said, even they will become familiar with the relation of the cue's pivot point to stroking and aiming.

Ask your pro instructor if, when aiming for center cue ball, you swipe and hit left of the center, where the CB goes, and you'll get a blank stare most of the time. They want to say the CB goes left, but also know hitting left squirts right... what they lack is knowledge of the pivot point. If they could understand these aspects, they'd be in a much better position to start advising on the almost unspoken variable, which is Induced Throw. The silence is deafening, because our licensed expert coaches are only about a third of the way to working out the variables that come before that in the aiming/stroke paradigm.

Colin
 
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