jump cue in 2005

ericksakti

Registered
hi everyone...
first let me introduce myself...
im new to this forum...
ok lets get to the point...
I just bought a jump cue and I loved it really much...
Also I lived in indonesia just for your info...
But yesterday...
The owner of the pool hall told me that it's useless to buy it because he said that jump cue will be banned in 2005,is it true?

Sakti
 
ericksakti said:
hi everyone...
first let me introduce myself...
im new to this forum...
ok lets get to the point...
I just bought a jump cue and I loved it really much...
Also I lived in indonesia just for your info...
But yesterday...
The owner of the pool hall told me that it's useless to buy it because he said that jump cue will be banned in 2005,is it true?

Sakti

Man i i hear something about it.That will blow, cause some people can't jump with a whole cue ... :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
yes its very sad knowing that i can't use my jump cue anymore in 2005... :( :(
And the worst thing it means that i can only use it for about 3 month :mad: :mad:
 
ericksakti said:
I just bought a jump cue ...But yesterday...The owner of the pool hall told me that it's useless to buy it because he said that jump cue will be banned in 2005, is it true?

Well, let's hope it's true, but it's more likely that the pool hall owner is indicating that some sanctioning body, and not all sanctiong bodies of pool, may ban the jump cue.

Perhaps APBU (Asian Pocket Billiard Union) or some other Asian sanctioning body for pool is considering banning the jump cue, but it seems most improbable that the jump cue will be banned by WPA, BCA, WPBA, etc.

If the jump cue is banned from all pro competition around the world in 2005, it will put me in such a good mood that I'd be happy to refund to you the cost of the jump cue you just bought. Just private message me when that day comes to pass and I'll mail you a check.
 
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If people use the modification I added to the cue makers section on jump cues, you'll jump fine with a full cue and it is legal in all aspect of the rules
 
I dont see a total ban in the near future, and even if there was many people would still use them in casual play.

Are you sure he didnt mean he was going to ban them in his room in 2005?
 
i think what he meant is that the jump cue will be banned in my country...dunno too...but well...I will still use it anyway...
 
sniper said:
It's all irrelevant...cause I jump just fine with break cue.
Sniper, from what I've seen, when a tournament bans jump cues they won't let you jump with your break cue either (only your playing cue)
 
I think pros should use thier playing cue, on the other hand pool can't afford to loose any sponsers.
 
Well...................here's what I think. Go to the search function and type in "jump cues" to get a week's worth of reading on the jump cue debate. As for the original question of whether jump cues will be banned universally in 2005 the answer is probably not. The WPA and the BCA both have rules which define what type of cue construction is allowed and as long as jump cues fit within those specifications I doubt that they will be banned.

It would be non-sensical for any organization to ban a cue that is used by millions of people all over the world and which fits within the established guidelines.

There are always going to be some tours, leagues and tournaments that ban the things they don't like. This is their right to do so. It is indicative of the fact that there is no real world or national body with the influence to enforce the same ruleset for all tours, tournaments and leagues.

My advice is don't worry about it. It will be legal. And even if it is banned then it will be legal in match play as the rules there are established by those matching up. Since there is no one group that can ban anything universally in pool the jump cue will always be legal somewhere. :-)

There you go Doom. Short and sweet. ;-)

John
 
onepocketchump said:
Well...................here's what I think. Go to the search function and type in "jump cues" to get a week's worth of reading on the jump cue debate. As for the original question of whether jump cues will be banned universally in 2005 the answer is probably not. The WPA and the BCA both have rules which define what type of cue construction is allowed and as long as jump cues fit within those specifications I doubt that they will be banned.

It would be non-sensical for any organization to ban a cue that is used by millions of people all over the world and which fits within the established guidelines.

There are always going to be some tours, leagues and tournaments that ban the things they don't like. This is their right to do so. It is indicative of the fact that there is no real world or national body with the influence to enforce the same ruleset for all tours, tournaments and leagues.

My advice is don't worry about it. It will be legal. And even if it is banned then it will be legal in match play as the rules there are established by those matching up. Since there is no one group that can ban anything universally in pool the jump cue will always be legal somewhere. :-)

There you go Doom. Short and sweet. ;-)

John
So i guess it will be bad to buy a breack jump cue then ???????
what is the no kicking players going to do >???? :mad:
 
deadstroke32 said:
So i guess it will be bad to buy a breack jump cue then ???????
what is the no kicking players going to do >???? :mad:
Learn how to kick. Buy Dr. Cue's Foundation for banking & kicking and you will love learning how to kick 1 2 3 4 & 5 rails to make legal contact. It really is a fantastic part of the game. When your opponant locks you up with a good safe and walks away from the table with a grin on his face and then you kick 3 rails and safe him right back (THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN THAT)
 
deadstroke32 said:
So i guess it will be bad to buy a breack jump cue then ???????
what is the no kicking players going to do >???? :mad:


The military has a great saying:
Adapt, improvise
Basic rule of thumb (LEARN )
 
deadstroke32 said:
So i guess it will be bad to buy a breack jump cue then ???????
what is the no kicking players going to do >???? :mad:

Buy a book and learn the Diamond System. Then when everyone knows that any sucker can be as good as any Pro who is 500% better than them just by buying a book with the Diamond System in it - the "purists" will call for a ban on rail sights (diamonds). After all, if a player executes a shot that was diagramed in a book then everyone knows that the book made the shot and not the player.

Ban the diamonds, ban the videos, ban anything that smacks of knowledge and innovation. Burn the printing press, keep the power in the hands of the elite..........

:-)) No, somebody will invent a 58" cue that jumps as well the best jump cue, breaks as well as the best break cue and plays as well as the best "normal" cue. Then the so-called "purists" will have to figure out a way to ban it.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
Buy a book and learn the Diamond System. Then when everyone knows that any sucker can be as good as any Pro who is 500% better than them just by buying a book with the Diamond System in it - the "purists" will call for a ban on rail sights (diamonds). After all, if a player executes a shot that was diagramed in a book then everyone knows that the book made the shot and not the player.

OPC, I cetainly respect you and the arguments you generally propose on the matter of jump cues and jump shots, but on this occasion I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

Serious three cushion billiard players realize that knowing the billiard systems is only a small step on the way to being able to judge multi-rail cue ball paths. As so many different strokes and speeds are possible, the number of permutations is somewhat disheartening to the average three cushion player.

Pool players know this, too. In nine ball kicking, at high levels of play, managing cue ball speed and object ball angle and having a plan for the final placement of both the cue ball and object ball is necessary. This means that the pool player must learn how to kick using many different speeds and many different strokes, and the billiard theory adjustments are sometimes quite tricky. Contrastingly, in jumping, the number of ways of hitting the cue ball is very finite, and shot selection and planning is far less complex when you don't have to judge the cue ball action off the rail(s). That's why I've seen several "C" and even "D" players who jump as well as "A" players, but I have never seen one that kicked as well as an "A" player.

System knowledge isn't nearly enough to make you a good kicker, and that's the truth of it. Becoming a good kicker takes enormous skill, but even some of the weakest players manage to develop reasonable proficiency in jumping. Like you, OPC, I sense the jump cue is here to stay, and that's fine, but let's not suggest that kicking can be just as easily mastered as jumping.
 
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sjm said:
OPC, I cetainly respect you and the arguments you generally propose on the matter of jump cues and jump shots, but on this occasion I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

Serious three cushion billiard players realize that knowing the billiard systems is only a small step on the way to being able to judge multi-rail cue ball paths. As so many different strokes and speeds are possible, the number of permutations is somewhat disheartening to the average three cushion player.

Pool players know this, too. In nine ball kicking, at high levels of play, managing cue ball speed and object ball angle and having a plan for the final placement of both the cue ball and object ball is necessary. This means that the pool player must learn how to kick using many different speeds and many different strokes, and the billiard theory adjustments are sometimes quite tricky. Contrastingly, in jumping, the number of ways of hitting the cue ball is very finite, and shot selection and planning is far less complex when you don't have to judge the cue ball action off the rail(s). That's why I've seen several "C" and even "D" players who jump as well as "A" players, but I have never seen one that kicked as well as an "A" player.

System knowledge isn't nearly enough to make you a good kicker, and that's the truth of it. Becoming a good kicker takes enormous skill, but even some of the weakest players manage to develop reasonable proficiency in jumping. Like you, OPC, I sense the jump cue is here to stay, and that's fine, but let's not suggest that kicking can be just as easily mastered as jumping.
sjm, opc and I disagreed on jump cues in another thread so no he just wants to follow me around to different threads and take childish shots at me.
 
Nino, please don't flatter yourself that I would follow you anywhere for any reason. You have not made a statement in this thread that I disagree with. I was repsonding to another post. Although it appears as though I am responding to your book post the truth is I didn't even see it until a few minutes ago. But my post would have been the same.

John
 
sjm said:
OPC, I cetainly respect you and the arguments you generally propose on the matter of jump cues and jump shots, but on this occasion I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

Serious three cushion billiard players realize that knowing the billiard systems is only a small step on the way to being able to judge multi-rail cue ball paths. As so many different strokes and speeds are possible, the number of permutations is somewhat disheartening to the average three cushion player.

Pool players know this, too. In nine ball kicking, at high levels of play, managing cue ball speed and object ball angle and having a plan for the final placement of both the cue ball and object ball is necessary. This means that the pool player must learn how to kick using many different speeds and many different strokes, and the billiard theory adjustments are sometimes quite tricky. Contrastingly, in jumping, the number of ways of hitting the cue ball is very finite, and shot selection and planning is far less complex when you don't have to judge the cue ball action off the rail(s). That's why I've seen several "C" and even "D" players who jump as well as "A" players, but I have never seen one that kicked as well as an "A" player.

System knowledge isn't nearly enough to make you a good kicker, and that's the truth of it. Becoming a good kicker takes enormous skill, but even some of the weakest players manage to develop reasonable proficiency in jumping. Like you, OPC, I sense the jump cue is here to stay, and that's fine, but let's not suggest that kicking can be just as easily mastered as jumping.


I understand your points but I must also respectfully disagree with you as well. Let me share my qualifications before I answer your points.

I have been playing pool, billiards and snooker for 24 years, since I was 12 years old. In Europe I was a pool instructor. I have devoured most books and tapes on how to play pool. My high run in three cushion is a ten. My average in 3-cushion is however a dismal .00000000001 :-) since I do not play it at all and have played very rarely. My high run in straight pool is 98 and I have run five racks in nine ball and eight ball several times. My high run at banks is ten. I have run eight and out many times in one pocket. Basically I am an above average player with a solid understanding of the game but far from world class.

My point about jump shots is that they require as much nuance as any other shot. Everything you said about kick shots applies to jump shots and especially to jump shots using the jump cue. I can take any rank beginner and teach them the diamond system in a few minutes and have them making three rail kick shots. I can take the same person and teach them the mirror system and have them hitting just about any one rail kick shot in a matter of minutes. And they don't even need a particually good stroke to do the kick shots. In fact, they can perform most of them with a lousy bridge. I don't even have to do anything other than ascertain that they can propel the cueball in a straight line and hit a spot on the rail. (in fact Tom Rossman does this type of instruction at every exhibtion he does)

Conversely, if I took the very same beginner who I taught in minutes to make three rail and one rail kick shots using the sytems I mentioned, and hand him a jump cue he most likely would not be able to jump a ball using just the description of jump technique. The reason is that he would not have any idea how to hold the cue nor how to stroke it nor how to judge speed and spin. He would not know how hard to or soft to hit the ball nor whether to follow through or punch the ball.

More than likely I would have to first help this player to develop a proper stroke and follow through before he would be able to make the cueball jump over another ball legally. This exact scenario has been played out hundreds of times at my jump cue demonstrations/lessons over the past five years. Even good solid A players have come up to the booth and NOT been able to jump a ball using a jump cue until I corrected their stroke and explained the nuance.

Now, that same player who learned the diamond system a few minutes ago will of course NOT be able to adjust for the variables such as cloth speed, blocked pathways and so on UNLESS he develops the proper stroke technique and understanding that goes along with any system.

I can certainly see where it might sometimes appear as though a C player can jump as well as an A player when the jump cue is in use. The truth is though that the A player is a better judge of the nuances and better able to execute the shot with the correct speed/spin and therfore is more likely to get a desireable result than the C player. Just because once in a while I hit a three rail kick shot with perfect accuracy in no way equates me with Efren or Torbjorn Blohmdahl, (with whom I have played on pool leagues with BTW - shameless name drop). A book or tape on kicking only gives one the knowledge of how to do it not the ability. A jump cue only gives one the possibility to jump a ball not the ability to do so. In conclusion, I am sticking to my original statement that both the jump shot and the kick shot require a high degree of skill to master and that they are equal in difficulty.

I will be more than happy to demonstrate this at the Midwest Expo in October. Look me up in the FURY booth.

John
 
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onepocketchump said:
I understand your points but I must also respectfully disagree with you as well. Let me share my qualifications before I answer your points.

I have been playing pool, billiards and snooker for 24 years, since I was 12 years old. In Europe I was a pool instructor. I have devoured most books and tapes on how to play pool. My high run in three cushion is a ten. My average in 3-cushion is however a dismal .00000000001 :-) since I do not play it at all and have played very rarely. My high run in straight pool is 98 and I have run five racks in nine ball and eight ball several times. My high run at banks is ten. I have run eight and out many times in one pocket. Basically I am an above average player with a solid understanding of the game but far from world class.

My point about jump shots is that they require as much nuance as any other shot. Everything you said about kick shots applies to jump shots and especially to jump shots using the jump cue. I can take any rank beginner and teach them the diamond system in a few minutes and have them making three rail kick shots. I can take the same person and teach them the mirror system and have them hitting just about any one rail kick shot in a matter of minutes. And they don't even need a particually good stroke to do the kick shots. In fact, they can perform most of them with a lousy bridge. I don't even have to do anything other than ascertain that they can propel the cueball in a straight line and hit a spot on the rail. (in fact Tom Rossman does this type of instruction at every exhibtion he does)

Conversely, if I took the very same beginner who I taught in minutes to make three rail and one rail kick shots using the sytems I mentioned, and hand him a jump cue he most likely would not be able to jump a ball using just the description of jump technique. The reason is that he would not have any idea how to hold the cue nor how to stroke it nor how to judge speed and spin. He would not know how hard to or soft to hit the ball nor whether to follow through or punch the ball.

More than likely I would have to first help this player to develop a proper stroke and follow through before he would be able to make the cueball jump over another ball legally. This exact scenario has been played out hundreds of times at my jump cue demonstrations/lessons over the past five years. Even good solid A players have come up to the booth and NOT been able to jump a ball using a jump cue until I corrected their stroke and explained the nuance.

Now, that same player who learned the diamond system a few minutes ago will of course NOT be able to adjust for the variables such as cloth speed, blocked pathways and so on UNLESS he develops the proper stroke technique and understanding that goes along with any system.

I can certainly see where it might sometimes appear as though a C player can jump as well as an A player when the jump cue is in use. The truth is though that the A player is a better judge of the nuances and better able to execute the shot with the correct speed/spin and therfore is more likely to get a desireable result than the C player. Just because once in a while I hit a three rail kick shot with perfect accuracy in no way equates me with Efren or Torbjorn Blohmdahl, (with whom I have played on pool leagues with BTW - shameless name drop). A book or tape on kicking only gives one the knowledge of how to do it not the ability. A jump cue only gives one the possibility to jump a ball not the ability to do so. In conclusion, I am sticking to my original statement that both the jump shot and the kick shot require a high degree of skill to master and that they are equal in difficulty.

I will be more than happy to demonstrate this at the Midwest Expo in October. Look me up in the FURY booth.

John

Got it, OPC. By the way, I have never had even the slightest doubts regarding your credentials as either a player of theorist of the game we love. By coincidence, it seems we play around the same level. My three cushion high run is nine, and my straight pool high run is 91. Just like you, I've been around pool forever --- thrity five years since I first chalked up. For the record, though, I view all posters as qualified to have a serious opinion on this or any other pool-related matter.

Thanks for your post, you have definitely sensitized me to some subtelties of jump shots that I guess I hadn't been sufficiently aware of. Sounds like there are more "flavors" of the jump shot than I realize. I will try to broaden my horizons here and start paying a little more attention to some of the finers points of jumping.

Wish I were going to the Midwest Expo, but not that lucky. Thanks for offering me the demo on jump shots --- that was generous. I am really glad we are able to pursue our debates on the forum with mutual respect, and I do hope that I'll get to meet you at some point.
 
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