Jump cues in tournements

[instroke]

Jump cues are a joke. Players should be allowed two cues - a break cue and a playing cue, and that is that. Just the way that a golfer is limited to 14 clubs (the USGA DOES enforce limits that those clubs fall must within). There should be something, such as a longer minimum length, or a minimum weight, to preserve some aspects of the game. What if they designed cues that could make every part of the game easier. For example, what if they made a cue that made all thin cuts hangers. Or a cue that made drawing your ball the length of the table a cinch. Or a cue that never missed a bank! Should those cues be allowed in tournament play too (this might sound like an unfair comparison, but some of these jump cues make it so easy that *anyone* can jump their ball)? Hell no! There should be SOMETHING to preserve the integrity of the game. There should be SOMETHING in these tournaments to reward the guys who put a lot of time and effort into their games, rather than rewarding the guys with the best equipment. Obviously, the better players still win the majority of the tournaments, so it isn't like people are out there winning tournaments simply because they own a jump cue, but the line should be drawn somewhere, and I think jump cues are outside of where that line should be drawn.

Did someone invent a jump cue that makes all jump shots hangers? I also have not noticed a trend wherin the players with the most/best equipment are winning most of the tournaments. I know my jump cue doesn't help me much when I am mostly sitting and watching my opponent run racks.

How about a rule change - NO SAFETIES - you MUST pocket a ball or it's ball in hand for the opponent. That way no one will have to fade the guy who misses and the balls go fifteen rails, carom off six balls and wind up safe.

I'll make just about ANY kick you can dream of with a jump shot in front of it. That takes some practice and "some" skill.

Sorry for the rant but the cue does NOT make the player.

John

 

[instroke]

Doomcue,

I say make the tips leather just to have some consistency in equipment standards. Right now it seems that anything goes. The specs are not specific. I still don't know what "pliable" means. They make a rule and don't define the words they use. If they mean "easily bent" then I think many of the tips out there are in violation.

I have heard that the ferrule material makes a good jump tip. That way you could just shape the end and not glue anything on the end. Is the ferrule material pliable? Maybe some of the plastics they use can be bent but "easily bent"? I don't think ivory is easily bent.

Someone is going to test every material known to man to find the best one for jumping. It becomes a farce when the jump cue sellers are involved with making the rules.

If you like other materials and the rule says it should be fibrous then make sure it is. If it just has to be pliable then how pliable? Many playing tips are not pliable as far as I can see but they are leather and they are fibrous.
Ken in CT

My opinion is that players should be allowed to use ANY material they want to to contact the cueball as long as it follows the following requirements;

The material must not harm any of the other equipment.
The material must leave no markings on any of the other equipment that is distracting or is not easily removed.
The material must not be distracting in it's use, such as a loud bang every time it contacts the cueball.

Within these criteria let the players use whatever they want to. Materials that work will find acceptance while those that don't will not.

There was a time when leather tips were new and radical and now you are advocating using "only" leather tips. No matter what materials are used a ball must be struck accurately to propel it into another ball to achieve a desired outcome. This process must be achieved by the activation of an inert piece of equipment manipulated by a person and repeated hundreds of times a day for success. If someone does invent something that allows a player to improve his range of shots and shotmaking ability then we should embrace that because it will raise the level of the game overall.

Just my opinion,

John

 

[rackmup]

I will fight to the death for my rights to carry a jump cue into any pool hall, pool tournament, pool league, swimming pool, car pool, car lot, Big Lots!, betting pool, betting parlour, hair parlour, etc.

I love my JC. I need my JC. I AM my JC.

Regards,

Ken (used the JC last night for a four foot hop to pocket the three, had enough draw on it to stop it cold for shape, blasted in my last remaining ball and drilled the eight, all to "Earl-Like" whining. They hated it. I loved it.)

 

[Gabber]

This whole problem can be solved by extending the minimum length of cues. Playing jump shots with a normal cue requires much more skill. There are probably more players who can jump , than can clear 1 to 9. That cant be right.
Ban the Munchkin cues!
Gabber.

 

[manlyshot]

Maybe it's time to go back to the push out rule ?
I think this produced some great shot making and adds another element of strategy the current game is a little short on.

This would be an interesting concept. Keep the jump cues, bring back the two-shot/push-out rule, and after a safety is executed, if the opponent pulls out his jump cue and does not pocket the ball successfully, the shooter who played the safety gets ball in hand.

ManlyShot

 

[instroke]

This would be an interesting concept. Keep the jump cues, bring back the two-shot/push-out rule, and after a safety is executed, if the opponent pulls out his jump cue and does not pocket the ball successfully, the shooter who played the safety gets ball in hand.

ManlyShot

Isn't this what Thorsten Hohmann did against Alex in the WPC? He pushed to a jump shot and Alex gave it back and Thorsten made it?

Two foul nine ball is better anyway because it is ALWAYS challenging. You push to a shot you think you can make but that you think your opponent won't. I personally think that with the current rules there should be NO PUSH OUT AFTER THE BREAK. Why? Because there is no need since every shot afterward is do or die.

John

 

[instroke]

This whole problem can be solved by extending the minimum length of cues. Playing jump shots with a normal cue requires much more skill. There are probably more players who can jump , than can clear 1 to 9. That cant be right.
Ban the Munchkin cues!
Gabber.

LOL

There are also more players that can draw the ball table length than can clear a table so perhaps we should have a skill test to determine who is allowed to play what games and what equipment they are allowed to use. IIRC Walter Lindrum was only allowed to use one ball for a long time until his father was satisfied that Walter could control the speed of the cueball. (Walter Lindrum was a world champion English Billiards player)

I say sell more jump cues to more players complete with a map to my house. )

John

 

[Snapshot9]

Jump cues

They are here for good, get used to it..
I played a lot of 2 shot out. Anybody can not make a jump shot. I watched 2 guys for 45 minutes last night, and good players, try to make a dart style jump shot, and neither one pocketed the object ball. The bartender finally told them no practicing jump or masse shots on the tables, which is a rule most places have.

Just be glad that there are standard rules for jump cue length, tip size, etc. Mastering the jump shot, and I have not seen anyone that has completely mastered them takes skill, smarts, and poise. It adds another dimension to the game. A good jumper will beat the good kicker because all of the balls are not hangers, some are quite a ways from the closest pocket.

The complainers about jump cues are the ones that can't jump and are getting beat by someone that can.
Quite bellyaching and learn how to jump. For once and all, it is NOT a legal way to cheat ..... it is part of the game.

I have 2 jump cues, and a 3rd is on the way as we speak, A Scorpion SCjump,
11 ozs. (lighter than a Bunjee at 13 oz.), with brass ferrule, and flat brass ring joint, fiberglass coating, 41" long, with proprietary tip. Got it for $80 with free shipping and the $15 butt case free too.

Now ... Can you do the alley oop jump shot ... over the top of the cue ball for long jumps ...... <smile>

 

[Keith Talent]

I hate em, too. Should never have been allowed to get a foothold. But since I've got one waiting at UPS -- blame Hohmann! -- I think I should get the chance to learn how to use the evil thing and frustrate at least one old-school kick specialist in a tourney somewhere.

 

[rackmup]

Jump Cues...(long)

I bought my first (and only) jump cue over 15 years ago at Kolby's Corner Pocket in Tempe, AZ. It is a Meucci Original SJ-21 (endorsed at the time by Sammy Jones, hence the "SJ".)

Like most everyone in the poolroom, no one had ever seen one so it just sat there in the display case. Apparently, the Meucci Rep had done a good job of convincing Corky (one of the owners of the room at the time) that it would sell "easy." Well, it didn't.

It was offered to me for $50.00 so at the risk of further damaging my marriage, I coughed up the cheese.

I put that cue in my case and rarely, if ever used it because I DIDN'T KNOW HOW! I tried a regular stroke (underhand) and couldn't get whitey off the ground! I don't think I had ever even seen a "dart stroke" so that effort was never expended. So the cue was relegated to the confines of my case for many, many years, only to be brought out occasionally to show it off.

Glenn Bond (a great player and instructor) out of Arizona tried to hop with it and after several futile attempts, said, "Sell it. Throw it away. It's worthless." Tracy, the Tourney Director at Kolby's said the same thing. I was hardheaded and chose to hang onto it.

A little over a year ago, I moved to Texas and met a guy who had a Bunjee JC. I watched in amazement, as he made jump-after-jump, ball-after-ball. I showed him my JC and he couldn't get the cue ball up high enough to clear a relatively easy jump.

It was the tip. It had a plain old medium hardness leather tip. While at a 9-ball tournament over at CJ Wiley's place in Dallas, I met a guy from south Texas who was there selling cues. I showed him my JC and explained my inability to use it. He suggested installing a "rock hard Bunjee tip" on it.

$20.00 lighter and about 15 minutes later, I left with a renewed interest in my JC.

I can now jump a ball with ease. Short jumps, long jumps, cut jumps, bank jumps, jumps with spin, english, draw and "stop" are all fairly easy now. It took a few weeks of practice (using an extra piece of old billiard cloth to protect the table) to master the "Dart" stroke but it was worth the time.

I get razzed about the use of the JC from time-to-time but I'll tell you this: Those who play against me in leagues and local tournaments know that if they are going to hook me, they had better freeze whitey snug against something or it just isn't "safe."

This gets them rattled and I sort of enjoy that.

The debate over the legality of the cue, its "damage" to the game and the whining will live on. The sniveling will eventually be replaced when something else is introduced to the game.

Those who think the JC is an "instant answer" to being hooked are at best, novice players. Good players know the time needed to master the use of the JC. Hopping a ball is one thing. Making a ball is another. That is what separates the "men from the boys."

Regards,

Ken (been offered $450 for that Meucci JC. Wouldn't sell it for
twice that amount.)

http://www.discountpoolcues.com/meuccijumpcues.htm

 

[Bluewolf]

Re: Jump Cues...(long)

Here I was, a new APA player in my first session, and my sl7 hubbie was proudly trying out his new stealth jump cue he had bought from our instructor, Scott Lee.

Ray, insists, 'I bet you can learn to jump really easily'. He uses the stealth, the cb pops over the intended OB. I try it, not even really knowing how to hold it, the cb just runs into the ob.

I insisted that I really thought that there were more important things I needed to be working on. GEEZ.

Living with an sl7 is interesting to say the least. Sometimes I just have to say that I am not ready to learn this or that yet. I still cannot jump the ball. Maybe in a year, I will try again.

Laura

PS Whenever this wolf sees rackmup, it is safe all around because Ken is funny.

 

[Celtic]

Jump cues are a crutch for people who have no kicking skills. The jump cues built nowadays are so designed to that specific purpose that a monkey could learn to jump with one. Go to the expo's or the booths during the VNEA and BCA and you can watch the salespeople teaching a person to jump over a full ball two inches away in 5-10 minutes. The salespeople of course are awesome at jumping due to doing it so often yet the majority of them cannot play the rest of the game nearly as well, they are like the guy at the fair that tries to sell you 3 balls for 5 bucks, "all ya gotta do is throw em in the basket, see how easy it is!".

Learning to kick well enough to survive against good competition is an art and has tons of factors that must be learned, it takes years to get good at it and is never mastered. Learning to jump instead with a jump cue takes a fraction of the time, a very small fraction at that. A guy can be profficient at jumping balls in a matter of minutes once shown the right technique. It is not a stroke that takes a long time to learn as the jump cue does pretty much all the work.

For all you people that think jump cues are fine and they should be legal I ask you what about shaft jumps? I remember when there was no rule against taking your cue apart and using the shaft to dart jump the cueball, a person could get over a ball as close as one inch from the ball. They changed the rules and cues now have to be a certain length, 40 inches I believe. They can change those rules again and say a cue must be at least 55 inches long and you must shoot with the same cue you took the first shot after the break with. The reason for having a break cue is totally different to the reason for having a jump cue, while one just protects the main shooting cue from damage and adds little to no advantage to the actual game the jump cue totally changes strategy and the way the game is played. I dont see the "well you should outlaw break cues as well then" arguement as valid in the slightest.

The kicking game is a very interesting part of pool and should not be destroyed by cues such as the Frog, Bunjee, Archers new Scorpion jumper, or any other fancy jump cue out there. People say things like "well you should have played a better safety". Yeah thats great, except for the jump cues that are being built now are able to jump a ball from 2 inches away, who knows how good they will be in 10 years with even better technology. Right now a person has to play a GREAT safety to force someone to use the rails instead of pull out the jump cue. Why should getting out of safeties be so much easier then putting a person into one? There should be a balance but there is not, playing safe has gotten alot harder then it once was while escaping safeties is now alot easier. I dont think this shift is a good thing for pool at all. You just took most of the "Chess" component of pool out of the game. Jumping over balls is not "chess", it is the slamball jumping off a trampoline version of pool and cheapens the game.

That brings me to my most important point and somthing I loved about pool. The game was basically the player and his cue. People used one cue and learned to master as large a variety of shots that would help them defeat their opponent. People learned to shoot a masse shot with their playing cue, they learned to kick multiple rails with their playing cue, they learned to play fancy juice shots, they even learned to jump with their normal full length playing cue. This was the great thing about the game, the great players became so good at doing so many cool things and they used a single piece of equippment and learned to make it do so many different things. The jump cue changed this alot and took alot of shots out of the players repitoire. Players will rarely play a masse shot anymore, they will rarely play tough kick shots as well, the jump cue is a crutch that allows them to avoid the more traditional escapes the game used to make the players master.

As I said, the break cue exists for the simple reason to protect the main players cue. If it is believed that it should also be outlawed (not my belief, these cues are totally differently implemented in the game) then so be it, we can all carry two+ shafts around for our playing cue and use it to break as well as shoot. We can make this game pure again and have a player play an enitre game with a single piece of equipment. This is NOT golf, we do not need a bag of various cues that do every trick in the book. Whats next, a cue that is made solely to masse and makes it alot easier due to some funky design? A cue that is built solely to hit huge draw shots off the rail due to some odd building technique? A bag of cues for a different purpose is not pool. One of the great things about this game is it's simplicity of having a single piece of equipment and learning to master all the various uses of it. If you want to jump then learn to use your normal playing cue to do it. If you cannot jump with your normal cue because it is too close or because you lack the skill then relize that the banks can be used, or maybe you should learn to masse, this is what pool is all about, learning these tough techniques to keep yourself in the game. Learn to walk without your crutch.

 

[Bluewolf]

Jump cues are a crutch for people who have no kicking skills.
People learned to shoot a masse shot with their playing cue, they learned to kick multiple rails with their playing cue, they learned to play fancy juice shots, they even learned to jump with their normal full length playing cue. This was the great thing about the game, the great players became so good at doing so many cool things and they used a single piece of equippment and learned to make it do so many different things. keep yourself in the game. Learn to walk without your crutch.

I am not into all of this debate stuff, but i did tell my husband even recently that i wanted to learn to masse before I learned to jump. Reason: no particular one. I just thought masse shots were kool. And I figure I needed to be about to do 3 rail kicks too, where now I can do one rail ones if it is easy, just ocasionally luck out on a two rail one.

I guess I thought every body did it this way. I assumed that since I am bad on masses and kicks, then I was not advanced enough yet for jumping. It would never have occurred to me that people did not learn things in this order.

Laura

 

[Micktmason]

outlaw jumping, it ruins strategy, makes it too easy to make a legal hit not necessarily making the shot

 

[BHAMKID]

outlaw jump cues?????

sorry but i dont think that there is going to be any outlawing going on anytime soon. way to many players would be pissed because they wasted money on the thing. (like me) plus i can also jump with a full cue. and i play rotation alot and i have also learned to kick pretty sporty. i use to be just like you guys that say they should be banned until i got my bunjee and learned how to use it. and im not trying to get on to anyone with this post. im just saying dont knock it until you try it. everyone is allowed there own oppinion and i respect that. but dont blame the jump cue. if you lock someone down to the back of a ball then they arent going to be able to use the jump cue.

 

[Snapshot9]

In rebuttal with Celtic ...

There is a slight hint in your arguments
that you might originally been a snooker player converted to pool.....

I have played Pool, all games of it, for over 40 years. Played snooker and billiards too when younger. I would suggest to you Celtic that if you are against the Jump Cue, then you play more 1 Pocket or Straight Pool because how often do you see a jump cue used in those games.

You self-defeated your own argument..
Learning to masse a ball, or learning kick shots, especially more than 2 rails, learning to throw balls, learning good draw, learning to bank balls are all things that help a player to learn to overcome obstacles in playing the game. Every sport has evolved over time, and much more equipment is used nowdays, not just for safety reasons, but to play the sport with more expertise and better than they could before. Jump shots do the same thing.
It overcomes obstacles. Players now have to rearrange their thinking (chess moves) when playing safeties to counteract someone that can jump a ball.

I did not like jump cues either when I was getting beat by someone who pulled out a jump cue and finished off the table, but I accepted it as part of the game, and adjusted my thinking enough to counteract it. Sorry, but this is not a David and Goliath type world anymore, where one can take a simple slingshot, put 1 stone in it, and defeat an opponent simply because one is accurate. Some people 'duck' and then what do you do? A good player is one that can adjust for almost any condition, slow vs fast tables, bad rails,
opponents that are good at a particular aspect of the game, etc.. It is simply a matter of optimizing your strengths, and minimizing your weaknesses. If you have a working brain, you should be able to figure out how to do that.
I remember when safeties were called cheating, don't you? They are now a common factor in playing the game well now, and many times allow a less talented player to defeat someone generally considered better. You have to maximize your odds of winning the game with each shot. How many times do you see someone go for an out that only has about a 15-20% chance of making it per their skill level, when they could shoot a safety that has a 85-90%
chance of winning the game for them if they would just be patient for 1 more trip to the table.... many many times...

Jumping the ball is not always the answer. Most jump shots are missed, and many failed attempts leaves his opponent able to run out the table and win. As skill levels improve, so does the chance of being able to get out, but also does the ability of the opponent usually to leave a person where they can not jump a ball. Nothing is a given in Pool, everything is relative, and you should keep your thinking about the game relative too to be a good or great player. I still find the game fascinating after 40+ years, and for your information, I love the 'chess' part of the game, and it is one of my biggest strengths in playing, but I keep an open mind, remain flexible in my thinking, and I know how to win within the rules of the game .... Attitude and discipline is what separates the great players from the good ones....

By the way, I have taken 9th before in the Valley International Championships in Vegas in 8 ball singles (1,000 entries) and I am the current Kansas State BCA 8 ball Champion.

 

[rackmup]

Jump cues are a crutch for people who have no kicking skills.

While this statement might hold true for the minority of players it simply isn't true for the majority. I know several top level players and just as many average amateurs who can kick better than they can jump. Jumping, like breaking or any other skill on the table is one that must be practiced for it to be of aid to one's game.

While I respect the right to feel a certain way about any subject, it seems to me the majority of those who would like to see the cue banned are those who kick because they can't or don't know how to use a JC.

The statement

Go to the expo's or the booths during the VNEA and BCA and you can watch the salespeople teaching a person to jump over a full ball two inches away in 5-10 minutes

is also greatly embellished. A two inch hop for anyone is difficult and simply cannot be mastered without hours of practice.

The jump cues built nowadays are so designed to that specific purpose that a monkey could learn to jump with one.

Mine was built by Meucci over 15 years ago. Again, this statement is full of holes. A jump cue only needs three components:

• Light weight
• 41" long
• A rock hard tip.

The only thing they hadn't figured out years ago was the hard tip.

I've quoted Celtic on several points here and it's not in an attempt to bash him. I respect his feelings and he makes some good points. The absolute bottom line is this and it isn't likely to change anytime soon:

JC's are legal. JC's will be in the cases of some of your future opponents. If you don't have one; get one. If you can't use one; learn.

And if they ban them tomorrow, oh well. Progress is an ever moving forward machine. Call the JC progress or call it damaging to the game but whatever you call it, for now you have to call it LEGAL.

Respectfully,

Ken

 

[Gabber]

While this statement might hold true for the minority of players it simply isn't true for the majority. I know several top level players and just as many average amateurs who can kick better than they can jump. Jumping, like breaking or any other skill on the table is one that must be practiced for it to be of aid to one's game.

While I respect the right to feel a certain way about any subject, it seems to me the majority of those who would like to see the cue banned are those who kick because they can't or don't know how to use a JC.

The statement is also greatly embellished. A two inch hop for anyone is difficult and simply cannot be mastered without hours of practice.




Mine was built by Meucci over 15 years ago. Again, this statement is full of holes. A jump cue only needs three components:

• Light weight
• 41" long
• A rock hard tip.

The only thing they hadn't figured out years ago was the hard tip.

I've quoted Celtic on several points here and it's not in an attempt to bash him. I respect his feelings and he makes some good points. The absolute bottom line is this and it isn't likely to change anytime soon:

JC's are legal. JC's will be in the cases of some of your future opponents. If you don't have one; get one. If you can't use one; learn.

And if they ban them tomorrow, oh well. Progress is an ever moving forward machine. Call the JC progress or call it damaging to the game but whatever you call it, for now you have to call it LEGAL.

Respectfully,

Ken

This exactly the response one would expect from someone who cant kick .


Ban the Pygmy cues. I wouldnt use one on principal .

Jump cues, finger extentions. Where will it stop.


Maybe with the use of technology , in the future , skill will be less important than what kind of gimicks that you use.

lets get back to real pool. Mano e mano. "Me and my cue , thats all , thats all I need . "
Is that not what its all about ?

Gabber

 

[Celtic]

Re: In rebuttal with Celtic ...

You self-defeated your own argument..
Learning to masse a ball, or learning kick shots, especially more than 2 rails, learning to throw balls, learning good draw, learning to bank balls are all things that help a player to learn to overcome obstacles in playing the game. Every sport has evolved over time, and much more equipment is used nowdays, not just for safety reasons, but to play the sport with more expertise and better than they could before. Jump shots do the same thing.

I didn't self-defeat my own arguement. I never stated that jumping over balls should be illegal, you should just have to use a normal playing cue to do it and not some short little 41 inch cue specifically made for the purpose. I own a break jump cue, I use it to jump, I jump pretty bloody well with it, I will virtually always make the jump and often make the ball with that cue, and I hate the bloody thing and would be happy to have it outlawed. I am not stubborn enough to get burned and lose matches by not using one while it is legal, but I yearn for the day when I cannot use the thing anymore and neither can my opponent.

For the record I think jumping should be a legal shot in pool just like masse is legal, just like kicking is legal, just like banking is legal. You should have to jump with your normal cue though. That was my whole point of my post. The jump cue is alot like the trampoline effect golf drivers that were outlawed on the PGA. They decided enough was enough and equippment should not have such a huge effect over skill and make the game that much easier. I am a traditionalist when it comes to pool and believe in the purity of the game, we dont need 1001 gadgets making their way into this game and taking away from it's simplicity in form.

Jump shots are possible with a full length cue. If you cannot jump the ball with a full length cue then dont jump the ball at all, figure something else out. The game and jump shots are balanced as long as people have to jump with their full length cue. There are few instances where people would jump and safeties would not have to be nearly so perfect to keep a person from jumping over the ball with ease. It takes real skill to jump with a full length cue, about as much skill as playing good kicks and good masse shots. In that way the game was balanced. The jump cue made it far easier to jump and therefore made it far less common to play those other two escape shots over the jump. Why should it be that easy? A game or sport is meant to challange the players.

 

[bruin70]

i don't think there should be jumping period. it might be a spectacular shot, but it's a cheat shot.

when wilt chamberlain was very young,,,,,college,,,high school???,,,he couldn't shoot free throws(never could). so he started taking running leaps to the basket, taking off from the freethrow line and dunking. they changed the rules. now,,,whether this is true or not, this is the closest thing i can think of to jumping the CB. there's no rule against it, it's perfectly legal as a defined shot, but,,,,,,,,,,,,