Jump Cues make the shot.

[Celtic]

FOR THE LAST TIME (not really) THE JUMP CUE DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOT - THE PLAYER USING THE JUMP CUE MAKES THE SHOT.

I am sorry but I just cannot agree with this (and dont want to bump the thread it was said on for the sake of this board).

One simply has to set up a full ball jump shot with about 6 inches to a foot and attempt the shot first with a jump cue, and then with a full length cue as players once were forced to do, it is night and day. Making a jump shot with a jump cue is trivial with a minimal amount of practice with the cues. This is evident by the Janette Lee/Robin Bell show where they grab every Tom Dick and Harry B level player from the crowd in the BCA trade show and have them making full ball jump shots within 5 to 10 minutes. These are not top players, these are players that would have a tough time going 1 or more rails to even hit the ball, yet the jump cue becomes not only the best chance to make the ball, but the best chance for these weak players to even hit the thing.

Jump cues like the frog are designed to basically make the jump, they are marketed as such and they are proved to make jumping the balls excesively easy as shown in the trade shows where a 12 year old kid starts making jump shots after only 5 minutes of practice with the cue instead of spending years learning the rail systems. To say that the players skill is making the shot is a joke, give the person a full length cue and see how well they do, 99% of people who can jump with ease with a jump cue dont have a hope of making a full length cue jumpshot.

This game is not golf, there is a purity of the game in the fact that we have one cue that we are able to make all the shots with. Masse, Jump shots, bank shots, draw, follow, ect... all makable with a single cue IF you have the required skill. This game should be played with a single cue, perhaps a break cue could be used as it is usually done for the sake of avoiding damage and wear and tear to the shooting cue, but with recent break cues comming out even that comes into question with the shaped ferrules and no tip.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[pete lafond]

I am sorry but I just cannot agree with this (and dont want to bump the thread it was said on for the sake of this board).

One simply has to set up a full ball jump shot with about 6 inches to a foot and attempt the shot first with a jump cue, and then with a full length cue as players once were forced to do, it is night and day. Making a jump shot with a jump cue is trivial with a minimal amount of practice with the cues. This is evident by the Janette Lee/Robin Bell show where they grab every Tom Dick and Harry B level player from the crowd in the BCA trade show and have them making full ball jump shots within 5 to 10 minutes. These are not top players, these are players that would have a tough time going 1 or more rails to even hit the ball, yet the jump cue becomes not only the best chance to make the ball, but the best chance for these weak players to even hit the thing.

Jump cues like the frog are designed to basically make the jump, they are marketed as such and they are proved to make jumping the balls excesively easy as shown in the trade shows where a 12 year old kid starts making jump shots after only 5 minutes of practice with the cue instead of spending years learning the rail systems. To say that the players skill is making the shot is a joke, give the person a full length cue and see how well they do, 99% of people who can jump with ease with a jump cue dont have a hope of making a full length cue jumpshot.

This game is not golf, there is a purity of the game in the fact that we have one cue that we are able to make all the shots with. Masse, Jump shots, bank shots, draw, follow, ect... all makable with a single cue IF you have the required skill. This game should be played with a single cue, perhaps a break cue could be used as it is usually done for the sake of avoiding damage and wear and tear to the shooting cue, but with recent break cues comming out even that comes into question with the shaped ferrules and no tip.

I agree with you, but as explained to me they are here to stay. Worst is that you see so many players look for a jump first before a good defensive kick. I do think with a wild 9 ball, nine on the break and jump cues we are making this game to simple giving the lessor player in a match a chance to win without appying the highest level of skill.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

Celtic, I agree 100%. Tony Annigoni's position paper on the USPPA website is right on target. I suggest people read it if they haven't already.

Web article: http://usppa.com/jumpcues.htm

 

[onepocketchump]

LIke I said, to you and to Tony Annigoni, whose "position" paper I responded to;

Please show me ONE jump cue that makes the shot by itself. If the Frog or any other jump cue makes the shot by itself then why does it take 5-10 minutes for a player out of the crowd to do it under Robin's instruction? Would you care to bet a VERY VERY LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY that we can take ALL of the brands of jump cues to an APA event and lay them on the table and INVITE ONLY handicap level 2s to try them with no instruction whatsoever and the results will be that less than half of these people will be be able to make the cueball jump over the object ball much less make a shot with it? Would Tony? I know he likes to gamble, I will bet $10,000 that less than ten out of 20 APA 2s are able to jump a ball using a jump cue on their first attempt.

If the jump cue does all the work then this ought to be an easy bet to win. The only reason I won't bet more is that by this time most people who have played any organized pool at all have been exposed to jump techniques so they could at least mimic the proper stance and get lucky.

As for all shots being made with a single cue, you are wrong on that point as well. First, all cues have different characteristics. Some draw better, some jump better, some masse' better. I can take two cues and with one you will think that I am the greatest jumper in the world with a full length cue and with the other you will think I never jumped a ball in my life. Same thing with masse' shots. And if you don't believe this then I have another 10,000 to bet on that as well. Why do you think billiard players have so many different cues? Why don't snooker players play with 19oz maple cues? Secondly, if you really feel this way, then why don't you advocate that everyone play with the same cue? Shouldn't everyone be required to play with a 19oz black Cuetec with a synthetic tip? That way everyone is on equal ground with the equipment they use. I will bet you another $1000 that if I went up an challenged Mr. Annigoni to a gambling match with the stipulation that I get to pick his cue, (the specs being that it is a 2 piece pool cue with a leather tip) that he would decline. Why is that? Obviously his superior skill ought to be able to overcome anything I hand him.

So, in conclusion I have provided several ways for you to earn 21,000 dollars while proving your statements. Conversely, if you decline then perhaps you ought to try and see the logic in mine. Mr. Annigoni's position paper is rife with innaccurate comparisons and examples. It has been thoroughly discredited in my opinion and he is using his position unfairly to impose his will on the USPPA players. Doing this denies them the opportunity to use new equipment and compete with the rest of the world. If he were fair he would let the USPPA players vote. But he is not and so he remains in the minority.

Lastly, I will be in Las Vegas from the 19th - 27th of August. There will be tons of APA 2s and 3s there. I will be more than happy to prove to anyone on this group the validity of my statements and the absurdity of Mr. Annigoni's and Celtic's.

The JUMP CUE DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOT, the player makes the shot.

John Barton

 

[onepocketchump]

I agree with you, but as explained to me they are here to stay. Worst is that you see so many players look for a jump first before a good defensive kick. I do think with a wild 9 ball, nine on the break and jump cues we are making this game to simple giving the lessor player in a match a chance to win without appying the highest level of skill.

Pete, I don't know if you gamble on pool or even play in tournaments. I can tell you, as one who does both, that the lessor player loses as much or more with the use of the jump cue as when there weren't any jump cues. A lessor player is just that. That s WHY they are a lessor player.

A better player knows when to jump and how to jump. He knows when to kick and how to kick. This applied before jump cues were around as well.

I have never beaten a better player because I use a jump cue. I have beaten a lot of players because I use a jump cue better. That's because I invested the time to learn how to use the tool. I also have studied kicking and banking from videos and books. Do the videos and books make the shot for me? Do the diamonds make the shot for me? No, my knowledge, practice and proper execution make the shot.

Should books and videos about how to play pool be banned? Surely it's an unfair advantage if one player is armed with that knowledge while another may not have it.

I know you want desperately to take the other side of this. The data just doesn't add up. For all you anti-jump folks, please walk a mile in my shoes. When you start to sell jump cues and you end up teaching people how to jump because they won't buy a jump cue unless they are able to use it. After you do this thousands of times over a period of many years you will come to the same conclusions that I have. It is easy to dismiss the jump cue as a gimmick, when you don't have the level of experience that I do.

Anyway, I said my piece. Y'all have a nice now.

John

 

[Mungtor]

The JUMP CUE DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOT, the player makes the shot.
John Barton

Of course the player makes the shot, but the cue makes the shot much easier. I think the major contention that people have is that it changes the game in a way which is ultimately detrimental to the sport. An entire dimension of strategy and safety play has been removed because the ability to jump is now purchasable by anybody.

To clarify a little, I really don't have much problem with jump cues in themselves as much as jumping at all. When people were using full length cues there were far less people who would attempt jumping, much less be successful at it. People learned to kick instead.

Some people feel that jump shots are an exciting dimesion in pool that allows new things. I don't agree. Jumping is a boring, easy way out of a difficult situation made easier by the availability of jump cues. If I had my way, intentionally jumping the cue ball in any way would be a ball in hand foul.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Jump Cues Banned

Jump Cues are banned in a lot of the West Coast tournaments.

Not one person/players has complained, rather, quite the opposite.
Most playes like the idea of "No jump cues allowed"

The players rely on skill out west. Lock up safties.

If you have to jump, you must use your 'regular' playing cue, or a wall cue.

I understand some of the East Coast regional tours have also banned jump cues.

 

[onepocketchump]

Of course the player makes the shot, but the cue makes the shot much easier. I think the major contention that people have is that it changes the game in a way which is ultimately detrimental to the sport. An entire dimension of strategy and safety play has been removed because the ability to jump is now purchasable by anybody.

To clarify a little, I really don't have much problem with jump cues in themselves as much as jumping at all. When people were using full length cues there were far less people who would attempt jumping, much less be successful at it. People learned to kick instead.

Some people feel that jump shots are an exciting dimesion in pool that allows new things. I don't agree. Jumping is a boring, easy way out of a difficult situation made easier by the availability of jump cues. If I had my way, intentionally jumping the cue ball in any way would be a ball in hand foul.

So just get the rules changed to disallow jumping. I played where jumping a ball at all is not allowed and where masse' shot are not allowed at all. I don't agree with those rules but I played under them. All I ask for is the return of two foul nine ball so the incoming player can push out of a lucky safe.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Jump Cues are banned in a lot of the West Coast tournaments.

Not one person/players has complained, rather, quite the opposite.
Most playes like the idea of "No jump cues allowed"

The players rely on skill out west. Lock up safties.

If you have to jump, you must use your 'regular' playing cue, or a wall cue.

I understand some of the East Coast regional tours have also banned jump cues.

That's because all of you on the West Coast are brainwashed by Tony Annigoni I will tell you this though, just about every time I see a West Coast player matching up in the east they always seem to have a jump cue and know how to use them. Efren uses a jump cue. Just because some people are being dictatorial about imposing their bias on the players doesn't mean that it's right. You wonder why pool won't get big, here's a reason. Everyone who runs a tournament, tour, or league thinks they are God's goft to pool and they know HOW it should be done and they are going to do it the way they see fit and screw anyone else who thinks differently.

Forget about the fact that the BCA rules are made by a rules committee that debates them on VOLUNTEER time to come up with rules that makes sense. Forget about the fact that the WPA does the same.

You know what, I think that in my tournaments I am going to require everyone to play with a 19oz Cuetec, a synthetic tip and no chalk. It's going to be called the "No-Spin to Win" Tour.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Of course the player makes the shot, but the cue makes the shot much easier. I think the major contention that people have is that it changes the game in a way which is ultimately detrimental to the sport. An entire dimension of strategy and safety play has been removed because the ability to jump is now purchasable by anybody.

To clarify a little, I really don't have much problem with jump cues in themselves as much as jumping at all. When people were using full length cues there were far less people who would attempt jumping, much less be successful at it. People learned to kick instead.

Some people feel that jump shots are an exciting dimesion in pool that allows new things. I don't agree. Jumping is a boring, easy way out of a difficult situation made easier by the availability of jump cues. If I had my way, intentionally jumping the cue ball in any way would be a ball in hand foul.

Sorry I didn't respond to the first part. I think that the jump cue adds a dimension to the sport. It forces a higher level of strategy and safety play. It adds a plethora of new shots to the game. Such a variety of new shots was only added once before with the introduction of the leather tip and chalk.

I feel that jumping is the furthest thing from a boring easy way out. It may seem that way to an observer but pool played properly looks boring and easy as well. Played the right way there is nothing but easy shots to the casual observer.

My question which NO ONE will answer, is how can a jump shot be considered a less skilled shot than any other when the player must DO EVERYTHING required on a non-jump shot PLUS calculate angle and bounce as well? Yes the jump cue makes a lot of jump shots possible, but it is the skill of the player which ultimately makes or misses the shot.

A chalked tip makes Mike Massey's circular draw shot possible. Using the same cue Mike can make it and I can't. I can go and get a different cue that "draws" a little better but it still won't be enough to compensate for Mike's superior skill. The point being that the tool is not the problem. It is merely there to address a need. How it it used and how well depends on the player. You all are flat wrong about thinking that player's are not learning kicks because of jump cues. Any player that is even halfway serious about their game learns everything they can.

John

 

[Tbeaux]

I think the major contention that people have is that it changes the game in a way which is ultimately detrimental to the sport. An entire dimension of strategy and safety play has been removed because the ability to jump is now purchasable by anybody.

1. The use of jump cues does not remove safety play, it just makes it more difficult.
2. It may weaken an aspect of defensive play but it adds an entire dimension to offensive play.
3. How is any of this a detriment to the sport? The average person interested in learning pool will probably be more attracted to the idea of learning how to jump a ball than anything else.....later someone can tell them they're not the next Mike Massey.

Terry

 

[pooltchr]

INVITE ONLY handicap level 2s to try them with no instruction whatsoever and the results will be that less than half of these people will be be able to make the cueball jump over the object ball much less make a shot with it?
John Barton

John,
not disagreeing with the point of your post....but,Hell, You can give most of the sl2's i've seen ball in hand with the ob 12 inches from the pocket and half of them will miss, or let the cue ball follow the shot into the pocket.
Steve

 

[Cory in DC]

Would Tony? I know he likes to gamble, I will bet $10,000 that less than ten out of 20 APA 2s are able to jump a ball using a jump cue on their first attempt. [snip]

That doesn't seem very sporting. Even in Vegas, half the APA 2's can barely hold a cue or run 3 balls on an open table more than 1/3 of the time. Are you seriously trying to define "skill" as anything that's not immediately accomplishable by 50% or more APA 2's?

My 2 cents on jump cues (worth exactly that much, or less) is that I'd prefer the game without them. But of course, I own one and use it fairly often because I'm not going to unilaterally disarm.

Cory

 

[onepocketchump]

John,
not disagreeing with the point of your post....but,Hell, You can give most of the sl2's i've seen ball in hand with the ob 12 inches from the pocket and half of them will miss, or let the cue ball follow the shot into the pocket.
Steve

That's my point. I could have said that I have personally seen a lot, dozens of otherwise very good players, who couldn't make a jump shot using a jump cue UNTIL I taught them the proper technique.

John

 

[macguy]

I am sorry but I just cannot agree with this (and dont want to bump the thread it was said on for the sake of this board).

One simply has to set up a full ball jump shot with about 6 inches to a foot and attempt the shot first with a jump cue, and then with a full length cue as players once were forced to do, it is night and day. Making a jump shot with a jump cue is trivial with a minimal amount of practice with the cues. This is evident by the Janette Lee/Robin Bell show where they grab every Tom Dick and Harry B level player from the crowd in the BCA trade show and have them making full ball jump shots within 5 to 10 minutes. These are not top players, these are players that would have a tough time going 1 or more rails to even hit the ball, yet the jump cue becomes not only the best chance to make the ball, but the best chance for these weak players to even hit the thing.

Jump cues like the frog are designed to basically make the jump, they are marketed as such and they are proved to make jumping the balls excesively easy as shown in the trade shows where a 12 year old kid starts making jump shots after only 5 minutes of practice with the cue instead of spending years learning the rail systems. To say that the players skill is making the shot is a joke, give the person a full length cue and see how well they do, 99% of people who can jump with ease with a jump cue dont have a hope of making a full length cue jumpshot.

This game is not golf, there is a purity of the game in the fact that we have one cue that we are able to make all the shots with. Masse, Jump shots, bank shots, draw, follow, ect... all makable with a single cue IF you have the required skill. This game should be played with a single cue, perhaps a break cue could be used as it is usually done for the sake of avoiding damage and wear and tear to the shooting cue, but with recent break cues comming out even that comes into question with the shaped ferrules and no tip.

Quote
"Making a jump shot with a jump cue is trivial with a minimal amount of practice with the cues."

Making a jump shot of any value is not at all a trivial accomplishment. I saw two guys play a game of straight pool with jump cues, every shot had to be a jump and you got ball in hand on every shot. They open broke the rack and the breaker got the first shot and after he missed the balls that went in on the break were spotted up before the next guy shot. The skilled player won if I remember right 25 to like 1, it may have been Pat Fleming now that I think about it. A jump cue is of little value to a player without the skill to use it and that goes WAY beyond just getting over the ball. I would say there are VERY few players who use a jump cue effectively, even among the top players. Most just jump and sell out, end of story. I never worry much when I see a guy pull out a jump cue. I figure I have the best of it no matter how you look at it. As long as the game is played with rules like ball in hand, ( A huge penalty by the way, usually resulting in the loss of the game), often achieved as a result of a nothing safety or even luck after a miss, the jump cue has it's place as an equalizer. The guys who don't like the jump cue are mostly guys who are addicted to getting ball in hand with cheap safeties and they resent it. Want to solve the problem, go back to push out. Trust me, when the guy pulls out the jump cue, you are still the favorite. You just may have to run the balls out with out your precious ball in hand.

 

[onepocketchump]

That doesn't seem very sporting. Even in Vegas, half the APA 2's can barely hold a cue or run 3 balls on an open table more than 1/3 of the time. Are you seriously trying to define "skill" as anything that's not immediately accomplishable by 50% or more APA 2's?

My 2 cents on jump cues (worth exactly that much, or less) is that I'd prefer the game without them. But of course, I own one and use it fairly often because I'm not going to unilaterally disarm.

Cory

Cory, this thread started with someone using Robin's booth as an example of how the cue does all the work because people who try the cue at her booth are able to jump "within five to ten minutes". I know from experience that there are APA 4s,5s,6s and 7s that can't jump a ball using a jump cue UNLESS they are taught HOW to use one. It is a fallacy to say that the jump cue does the work, makes the shot or makes a weaker player into a better one.

I would prefer the game without jump cues as well. I play very well without them. But the rules are set up so that a player needs every chance to avoid ball in hand that he can get. So jump cues evolved to fill that need. I personally think nine-ball ought to be call-shot and call-safe. That way missing a shot and getting a lucky safe doesn't penalize the incoming player.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Quote
"Making a jump shot with a jump cue is trivial with a minimal amount of practice with the cues."

Making a jump shot of any value is not at all a trivial accomplishment. I saw two guys play a game of straight pool with jump cues, every shot had to be a jump and you got ball in hand on every shot. They open broke the rack and the breaker got the first shot and after he missed the balls that went in on the break were spotted up before the next guy shot. The skilled player won if I remember right 25 to like 1, it may have been Pat Fleming now that I think about it. A jump cue is of little value to a player without the skill to use it and that goes WAY beyond just getting over the ball. I would say there are VERY few players who use a jump cue effectively, even among the top players. Most just jump and sell out, end of story. I never worry much when I see a guy pull out a jump cue. I figure I have the best of it no matter how you look at it. As long as the game is played with rules like ball in hand, ( A huge penalty by the way, usually resulting in the loss of the game), often achieved as a result of a nothing safety or even luck after a miss, the jump cue has it's place as an equalizer. The guys who don't like the jump cue are mostly guys who are addicted to getting ball in hand with cheap safeties and they resent it. Want to solve the problem, go back to push out. Trust me, when the guy pulls out the jump cue, you are still the favorite. You just may have to run the balls out with out your precious ball in hand.

Tap Tap. I will often just give ball in hand to players who play a safe on me when they have a clear run out. This confuses them and they then try to run out leaving me with an easy out when they miss.

John

 

[Mungtor]

My question which NO ONE will answer, is how can a jump shot be considered a less skilled shot than any other when the player must DO EVERYTHING required on a non-jump shot PLUS calculate angle and bounce as well? Yes the jump cue makes a lot of jump shots possible, but it is the skill of the player which ultimately makes or misses the shot.
John

In nearly every instance I have seen, the primary goal when pulling out the jump cue is to simply make contact with the object ball. Pocketing it is incedental because all that is being avoided is giving ball in hand to an oppenent. Make the jump, make contact, hope to get lucky with position or a return safe. That's pretty much the extent of it at everything less than the touring Pro level. You're probably an exception since you obviously have a lot of time and practice invested in it.

1. The use of jump cues does not remove safety play, it just makes it more difficult.
2. It may weaken an aspect of defensive play but it adds an entire dimension to offensive play.

It takes it too far IMO. You are better off going for the 10% shot than the 5% chance of the perfect safety. And as I replied to John above, it has been my observation that most of the time a jump shot (with or without a jump cue) is just a defensive reaction to try to make contact.

3. How is any of this a detriment to the sport? The average person interested in learning pool will probably be more attracted to the idea of learning how to jump a ball than anything else.....later someone can tell them they're not the next Mike Massey.

That may be your assessment, but I don't agree with it. I'm sure that most average bangers would much rather have the pockets be 7 inches wide so they could make some balls. Would that be an OK modification to the game to get the "average" person more interested?

I've been wresting with the right way to explain how I feel about jump shots and I can't quite come up with anything other than a sincere belief that they cheapen the game. They are a quick (and, with the right equipment) easy out of a saftey. People who can learn to jump easily will never think to try a 3-rail shot with inside english to hold it up a bit in order to escape a safety. The blending of english and speed is way more impressive to watch than somebody bouncing the cue down the table.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.....

 

[telkwa]

just thought id add a comment to this...

im not a very good player but i can easily jump balls with my playing cue.