Jump Cues make the shot.

My .02 cents ...

I agree with OnepocketChump.

The player makes the shot. Most of the time when a player attempts
a jump shot and DOES NOT make it, it leaves an easier shot for his
Opponent than if he had kicked at the ball, and just took his chances
on the leave (and I almost never shoot kick shots soft for that reason).

I play with a guy that is a little below me, but he shoots jump shots real
well. There are nights when he makes 95% of the attempted jump shots
he has, and believe me sometimes I have to try to tie him up. There are
also some other nights I play him that he will only make about 15% pf
his attempted jump shots, and when he misses I usually have a decent
shot to get out.

Jump sticks add to the mental complexity of the game, but they are legal
and making the right decision on a shot is just as important as executing
the shot. You advocates for not using jumpsticks still advocate using
a housestick, which I think is bogus because if you outlaw jumpers you
should not be able to use any other stick except your playing cue to make
a jump.

Jumpers aren't always an advantage. I was playing 1 night in a tournament,
using my Scorpion jumper and missed 3 jump shots in a row which left
sell outs each time. The next time I was presented with a jump shot, I said
to hell with it, used my playing cue and made the next 4 jump shots in a row.
So that was a night when my jump stick worked against me, but my decision to use my playing cue to jump was a good one.

It is about having the knowledge to make the best decision for a shot, and
the execution of that shot, NOT about the equipment.

That makes about as much sense as going back and outlawing metal bats
in major league baseball because you get more distance with one than a
wood bat.

I am only 5'7", and I am not always thrilled at having jump shots, especially
close ones, since it is a burden for me to have the proper form for it
because of my height. And I kick better than I jump. Plus I don't use the
dart style, just the normal style. But it is part of the game, so I work at it
the best that I can. Hell, I still would like having 2 shot out because the mental aspects of the game is one of my best strengths. I have had more
than player tell me that I had more mental toughness than anyone else
they had ever played.

The rules are the rules, get over it, and deal with them, and play the best
game you can within them.
 
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Mungtor said:
In nearly every instance I have seen, the primary goal when pulling out the jump cue is to simply make contact with the object ball. Pocketing it is incedental because all that is being avoided is giving ball in hand to an oppenent. Make the jump, make contact, hope to get lucky with position or a return safe. That's pretty much the extent of it at everything less than the touring Pro level. You're probably an exception since you obviously have a lot of time and practice invested in it.


But even with the task of jumping the ball to make contact you are talking about having to use the same skill sets as with any other shot plus deciding on how hard and at what angle to hit the cueball at. The cue doesn't set this up for the player. And in my experience there are thousands of players out there who are well below touring pro level who do practice jump shots and are quite proficient at them. When these players execute a jump shot there is no doubt that it is skill and not luck and certainly not the equipment doing the shooting.


It takes it too far IMO. You are better off going for the 10% shot than the 5% chance of the perfect safety. And as I replied to John above, it has been my observation that most of the time a jump shot (with or without a jump cue) is just a defensive reaction to try to make contact.



That may be your assessment, but I don't agree with it. I'm sure that most average bangers would much rather have the pockets be 7 inches wide so they could make some balls. Would that be an OK modification to the game to get the "average" person more interested?

I've been wresting with the right way to explain how I feel about jump shots and I can't quite come up with anything other than a sincere belief that they cheapen the game. They are a quick (and, with the right equipment) easy out of a saftey. People who can learn to jump easily will never think to try a 3-rail shot with inside english to hold it up a bit in order to escape a safety. The blending of english and speed is way more impressive to watch than somebody bouncing the cue down the table.

Agreed. I would prefer to watch a well executed shot period. I personally know how tough it is to make even the simplest jump shots under pressure. So when I see someone do it I am very appreciative of the skill displayed and the guts to pull the trigger on it.

John



Anyway, that's just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions..... :D
Click to expand...


Hate trying to repsond inside quoted text.
 
Mungtor said:
In nearly every instance I have seen, the primary goal when pulling out the jump cue is to simply make contact with the object ball. Pocketing it is incedental because all that is being avoided is giving ball in hand to an oppenent. Make the jump, make contact, hope to get lucky with position or a return safe. That's pretty much the extent of it at everything less than the touring Pro level. You're probably an exception since you obviously have a lot of time and practice invested in it.



It takes it too far IMO. You are better off going for the 10% shot than the 5% chance of the perfect safety. And as I replied to John above, it has been my observation that most of the time a jump shot (with or without a jump cue) is just a defensive reaction to try to make contact.



That may be your assessment, but I don't agree with it. I'm sure that most average bangers would much rather have the pockets be 7 inches wide so they could make some balls. Would that be an OK modification to the game to get the "average" person more interested?

I've been wresting with the right way to explain how I feel about jump shots and I can't quite come up with anything other than a sincere belief that they cheapen the game. They are a quick (and, with the right equipment) easy out of a saftey. People who can learn to jump easily will never think to try a 3-rail shot with inside english to hold it up a bit in order to escape a safety. The blending of english and speed is way more impressive to watch than somebody bouncing the cue down the table.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions..... :D
Click to expand...

The problem is, the safety is easy to play when it consists on nothing more then getting behind a ball and the penalty of ball in hand is far to great for the player having done nothing really in the way of a safety. The fact is, the game was ruined when the ball in hand was introduced and the jump cue has been somewhat of a remedy. 9-ball as it is played is not a championship quality game in my opinion. There needs to be some major rule changes. Just some small changes like no hill-hill games but win by two. Nine on the break re-spots and the player continues. Roll out unless the player calls safe before shooting, no more lucky leaves and so on. I am just saying these off the top of my head. If a bunch of knowledgeable people got together and rewrote the rules of 9-ball they could raise it to a championship quality game. It is a bit silly as it is now the rules the pro's play by.
 
Celtic said:
I am sorry but I just cannot agree with this (and dont want to bump the thread it was said on for the sake of this board).

One simply has to set up a full ball jump shot with about 6 inches to a foot and attempt the shot first with a jump cue, and then with a full length cue as players once were forced to do, it is night and day. Making a jump shot with a jump cue is trivial with a minimal amount of practice with the cues. This is evident by the Janette Lee/Robin Bell show where they grab every Tom Dick and Harry B level player from the crowd in the BCA trade show and have them making full ball jump shots within 5 to 10 minutes. These are not top players, these are players that would have a tough time going 1 or more rails to even hit the ball, yet the jump cue becomes not only the best chance to make the ball, but the best chance for these weak players to even hit the thing.

Jump cues like the frog are designed to basically make the jump, they are marketed as such and they are proved to make jumping the balls excesively easy as shown in the trade shows where a 12 year old kid starts making jump shots after only 5 minutes of practice with the cue instead of spending years learning the rail systems. To say that the players skill is making the shot is a joke, give the person a full length cue and see how well they do, 99% of people who can jump with ease with a jump cue dont have a hope of making a full length cue jumpshot.

This game is not golf, there is a purity of the game in the fact that we have one cue that we are able to make all the shots with. Masse, Jump shots, bank shots, draw, follow, ect... all makable with a single cue IF you have the required skill. This game should be played with a single cue, perhaps a break cue could be used as it is usually done for the sake of avoiding damage and wear and tear to the shooting cue, but with recent break cues comming out even that comes into question with the shaped ferrules and no tip.
Click to expand...


What a cry baby !!!!!
 
macguy said:
The problem is, the safety is easy to play when it consists on nothing more then getting behind a ball and the penalty of ball in hand is far to great for the player having done nothing really in the way of a safety. The fact is, the game was ruined when the ball in hand was introduced and the jump cue has been somewhat of a remedy. 9-ball as it is played is not a championship quality game in my opinion. There needs to be some major rule changes. Just some small changes like no hill-hill games but win by two. Nine on the break re-spots and the player continues. Roll out unless the player calls safe before shooting, no more lucky leaves and so on. I am just saying these off the top of my head. If a bunch of knowledgeable people got together and rewrote the rules of 9-ball they could raise it to a championship quality game. It is a bit silly as it is now the rules the pro's play by.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you said here. BIH is a huge penalty, and IMO the right way to address it would be to minimize the penalty not to introduce another piece of equipment like a jump cue. From what you and John have said, 9-ball could be a much better game if the way called and uncalled (lucky) safeties were handled.

So we could allow push out of a called safe, same rules as a push after break.

What gets done about an uncalled safe? Same push out? Something else?
 
onepocketchump said:
But even with the task of jumping the ball to make contact you are talking about having to use the same skill sets as with any other shot plus deciding on how hard and at what angle to hit the cueball at. The cue doesn't set this up for the player.
Click to expand...

I don't know. When I have made a jump shot, generally I aim at the OB and try to give the CB the minimum amount of air to clear the intervening balls. It does take some feel, and I'm not very good at it. Even so, I still feel there is more skill in making the CB go 19 feet to hit the OB than 4 feet + 3 inches high.

onepocketchump said:
And in my experience there are thousands of players out there who are well below touring pro level who do practice jump shots and are quite proficient at them. When these players execute a jump shot there is no doubt that it is skill and not luck and certainly not the equipment doing the shooting.
Click to expand...

You are a much more travelled player than I will ever be, so I will take your word for it. But I think that begs a question... Are they practicing their jump shots because they are ultimately easier to master than good kicking?

(sorry for the requoting format. makes it easier to read I think)
 
Snapshot9 said:
SNIP
That makes about as much sense as going back and outlawing metal bats
in major league baseball because you get more distance with one than a
wood bat.
SNIP
Click to expand...
I hope your entire argument isn't based on this. Metal bats have NEVER been legal for use in MLB.

-djb
 
Snapshot9 said:
Go to http://shop.mlb.com/info/index.jsp?categoryId=222833&infoPath=222974

and check it out .....
Click to expand...

Just because they will sell them to you don't make them legal in MLB play. They aren't, and there is serious talk of banning them at the college level because the ball comes back too fast and too hard for the pitcher to get out of the way. People have been killed by line drives off aluminum bats.

From http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/objectives_1.jsp

1.10 (a) The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 2 3/4 inches in diameter at the thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length. The bat shall be one piece of solid wood. NOTE: No laminated or experimental bats shall be used in a professional game (either championship season or exhibition games) until the manufacturer has secured approval from the Rules Committee of his design and methods of manufacture. (b) Cupped Bats. An indentation in the end of the bat up to one inch in depth is permitted and may be no wider than two inches and no less than one inch in diameter. The indentation must be curved with no foreign substance added. (c) The bat handle, for not more than 18 inches from its end, may be covered or treated with any material or substance to improve the grip. Any such material or substance, which extends past the 18 inch limitation, shall cause the bat to be removed from the game. NOTE: If the umpire discovers that the bat does not conform to (c) above until a time during or after which the bat has been used in play, it shall not be grounds for declaring the batter out, or ejected from the game. (d) No colored bat may be used in a professional game unless approved by the Rules Committee.


edit: found the rule, emphasis mine.
 
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Mungtor said:
Just because they will sell them to you don't make them legal in MLB play. They aren't, and there is serious talk of banning them at the college level because the ball comes back too fast and too hard for the pitcher to get out of the way. People have been killed by line drives off aluminum bats.
Click to expand...

Munkey(j/k),

Yeah, but has anybody been killed by a jumping cueball? This whole issue is about tradition vs new age. You appear to be a traditionalist. I agree with you about baseball bats. Jumping on the other hand has been around awhile and has been gaining acceptance in play (at least on the pro level). If there is jumping allowed I think equipment made for jumping should be allowed. You may want to ban jumping in play but your just going to piss off a lot of people who invested in jump cues. Personally I prefer not to jump except as a last resort but I like at least having the option.

Terry
 
Tbeaux said:
Munkey(j/k),

Yeah, but has anybody been killed by a jumping cueball? This whole issue is about tradition vs new age. You appear to be a traditionalist. I agree with you about baseball bats. Jumping on the other hand has been around awhile and has been gaining acceptance in play (at least on the pro level). If there is jumping allowed I think equipment made for jumping should be allowed. You may want to ban jumping in play but your just going to piss off a lot of people who invested in jump cues. Personally I prefer not to jump except as a last resort but I like at least having the option.

Terry
Click to expand...

I don't really see it as tradition, but you may be right. I see it as people not bothering to learn any diamond systems or how to kick because for $125 they can buy a stick which basically makes it much less imprtant. I think that the game as a whole suffers for it and as macguy pointed out, the solution may be to reduce the situations where BIH fouls occur. Cut down on BIH, and the times where people feel forced to jump will decline as well.
 
onepocketchump said:
That's my point. I could have said that I have personally seen a lot, dozens of otherwise very good players, who couldn't make a jump shot using a jump cue UNTIL I taught them the proper technique.

John
Click to expand...

That pretty much proves my point. In 5 minutes you can take a lower level player who cannot shoot overly well and teach them to use the gimmick jump cue with the proper technique that would otherwise take years of practice to get out of using rail shots.

With rail shots all kicks are different dependent on the distance of the cueball to the rail and the object ball from the rail, and then the angles come into play and that is only even on single rail kicks, nevermind multiple rail shots. The jump cue on the other hand does not take working out an angle such as learning proper kicking technique, once you get the Onepocketchump crash course in jumping you can get out of a huge amount of good safeties simply by pulling out a jump cue and doing what it took 5-10 minutes to learn. Jumping is a very repetitive action and one jump shot to the next are not that different, kicking balls is FAR more taxing to knowledge and it takes alot more then 5-10 minutes to get profficient at kicking. There are ALOT of lower level players that can effectively jump balls that cannot kick out of a safety to save their life. Kicking is far harder to learn, it is not the quick fix easy way out that jump cues are to alot of players out there.

That you can actually come onto this forum and say people cannot jump "until you teach them how to do it" proves the point. You will never hear "he could not kick until I taught him how to do it" because teaching a person effective kicking takes years, not minutes. Jump cues are a quick fix, and I would far rather have a person kicking out of a safety against me then pulling out the jump cue.
 
The people who are inclined to learn to kick and bank will always do so. I very much doubt that there are any more or less people learning to kick than there were befoer jump cues became so popular. If anything there are more people reading books and watching videos about banking and kicking and all aspects of the game as evidenced by the profileration of instructional media and the sales volume of them.

As far as what most players who use a jump cue do vs. what good players do, most B level and below players who are using jump cues also routinely miss relatively easy shots, hardly ever run out, miss kicks and banks and safeties as well. Most A players and above that I know are somewhat accomplished at all these aspects of the game as well as jumping both with a full cue and with a jump cue.

I propose a petition to standardize the rules of all games everywhere. Make the rules such that jump cues are not needed. Tonight I lost a match because my opponent missed his object ball badly and hooked me with no good kick or jump shot. Why should I be penalized for his poor play? My solution, you either call a pocket OR call a safety not both. If you miss the ball then it's ball in hand. It is my theory that this practice will lead to better players because it will force them to be aggressive and try to run out. You will see a lot more players learning to RUN OUT rather than play dinky safes or two-way shots. Players will be forced to learn to kick and bank early on and so you will see in several years that the C-level player then will be equivalent to the A-level player of today.

Woudn't it be nice to go to the local tournament and see everyone running five packs? All of us do this because we like to make the balls disappear. Woudn't it be cool to have five packs be commonplace? Then you would see some pool.

John
 
Celtic said:
I would far rather have a person kicking out of a safety against me then pulling out the jump cue.
Click to expand...

I am sure you would. In many cases all it takes to play a safety is to drive a ball up table stopping the cue ball behind another ball, for that you want ball in hand? I know you are going to say, "well then learn to kick". There in lies the problem, a good kick is much harder to accomplish most of the time then the safety was to play. Your reward for doing almost nothing is too great. How about if you play me safe and I choose to kick, all I have to do is make a hit and I win the game. After all, if I don't make a hit I probably lose the game so why should you not be under the same jeopardy as me? Maybe play if you call safe and don't get me behind a ball I get ball in hand. It is probably no more ridiculous then the current ball in hand rule. Rules have to be fair to both players and ball in hand for a half assed safety or a lucky missed ball is just not fair. The jump cue makes it a little more fair. I am not an advocate of the jump cue or an opponent, I just objectively see it's value based on how the game is currently played.
 
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onepocketchump said:
Woudn't it be nice to go to the local tournament and see everyone running five packs? All of us do this because we like to make the balls disappear. Woudn't it be cool to have five packs be commonplace? Then you would see some pool.

John
Click to expand...

If everyone were running 5-packs, how would you make the game more challenging for the pros. If the pros were putting together 12-packs on a regular basis, the races would have to be to 21 or something crazy like that. Thanks in advance for your input.
 
Celtic said:
That pretty much proves my point. In 5 minutes you can take a lower level player who cannot shoot overly well and teach them to use the gimmick jump cue with the proper technique that would otherwise take years of practice to get out of using rail shots.

With rail shots all kicks are different dependent on the distance of the cueball to the rail and the object ball from the rail, and then the angles come into play and that is only even on single rail kicks, nevermind multiple rail shots. The jump cue on the other hand does not take working out an angle such as learning proper kicking technique, once you get the Onepocketchump crash course in jumping you can get out of a huge amount of good safeties simply by pulling out a jump cue and doing what it took 5-10 minutes to learn. Jumping is a very repetitive action and one jump shot to the next are not that different, kicking balls is FAR more taxing to knowledge and it takes alot more then 5-10 minutes to get profficient at kicking. There are ALOT of lower level players that can effectively jump balls that cannot kick out of a safety to save their life. Kicking is far harder to learn, it is not the quick fix easy way out that jump cues are to alot of players out there.

That you can actually come onto this forum and say people cannot jump "until you teach them how to do it" proves the point. You will never hear "he could not kick until I taught him how to do it" because teaching a person effective kicking takes years, not minutes. Jump cues are a quick fix, and I would far rather have a person kicking out of a safety against me then pulling out the jump cue.
Click to expand...


May I ask you what your level of experience is in pool? I mean, how well do you play, have you ever taken a lesson or given one?

Have you ever been to an exhibition by Tom Rossmann? He has people doing two and three rail kicks in minutes, not years.

It's all about knowledge. Once Tom or I impart 'that' gimmick to someone else THEN they have a foundation to build upon.

Saying that jump cues do all the work is like saying that the diamonds make the kick.

Celtic, I guess we'll just have to agree that we won't agree on this one. I have a lot of money to put up to prove my points. If you ever care to actually bet something on this I'll take a rank beginner off the street and within one hour I will have them kicking out of most safeties you play on them and within two hours I'll have them jumping out of most safeties you can play. Why two hours for the jump shots? Because, unlike with the kicks shots, they will need a good stroke for the jump shots.

Until you walk in my shoes you will never understand. You wil never experience the absolute wonder that a player experiences when they learn a new skill, especially jumping. Many of the people I have taught have said to me that they had been trying to learn for years, had tried other jump cues and had no success. My "crash course" as you call it, is filled with knowledge of how to quickly assess a player's deficiencies and correct them just as quickly. This library of knowledge comes from working with many other talented players who have each added something from their own methods of teaching. It is a genuinely good feeling to take someone who is essentially helpless and fix their stroke so that you know when they walk away they are a better player.

You know, I never really thought about the balance of effort vs. reward in quite the way that Macguy put it. The more I think about it them more I believe it's true that the vehemently anti-jump crowd are truly just frustrated when they can't get a huge reward for little effort anymore. The so-called "good safeties" they talk about are nothing to an A-player who knows how to kick safe right back. Are you one of those people Celtic? Are you hating on jump cues because you used to win more by dinking the balls around? Do you hate Tom Rossmann for teaching people to kick in five minutes? Are you frustrated because you spend years on something other people can do in five minutes?

John
 
zeeder said:
If everyone were running 5-packs, how would you make the game more challenging for the pros. If the pros were putting together 12-packs on a regular basis, the races would have to be to 21 or something crazy like that. Thanks in advance for your input.
Click to expand...

It would become the first one who blinks. The pros and everyone else would be forced to learn and execute shots that they hardly ever "have" to play under the current rules.

Since people couldn't away with missing a shot and getting rewarded with ball in hand they would have to run out. The PROS would do what pros do now, which is run out more. Everything would simply shift more towards an offensive game in which shots that are now 'spectacular' would become commonplace and people would expect to see the player go for it rather than bunt safe. There would still be safeties, called ones. This would add a huge element of strategy to the game as well and the safety play would get really good.

John
 
Mungtor said:
I don't know. When I have made a jump shot, generally I aim at the OB and try to give the CB the minimum amount of air to clear the intervening balls. It does take some feel, and I'm not very good at it. Even so, I still feel there is more skill in making the CB go 19 feet to hit the OB than 4 feet + 3 inches high.



You are a much more travelled player than I will ever be, so I will take your word for it. But I think that begs a question... Are they practicing their jump shots because they are ultimately easier to master than good kicking?

(sorry for the requoting format. makes it easier to read I think)
Click to expand...


It okay to have the opinion that it takes more skill to go a longer distance. The fact is however that if I know the diamond system then it doesn't matter whether the kick is two inches or twenty feet. The method used is the same on both shots. A player can learn the diamond system and be hitting the ball on most kick shots in minutes with the right instruction. Learning the nuances will take quite a while longer. The same thing applies to jump shots. you can learn to jump fairly quickly. Learning to do it proficiently takes practice. In my opinion it takes more skill to feather a ball just right and make the cueball go up table and nestle up behind another ball than it does to kick. There is no system I can learn for that shot.

I believe that players are not learning to jump because jumping is easier than kicking. It's not. They are learning to jump because it is part of the game and a skill that is vital to success at pool under the current rules. Any player who is serious about their game learns all aspects of the game.

John
 
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