Jump Cues make the shot.

[Mungtor]

It okay to have the opinion that it takes more skill to go a longer distance. The fact is however that if I know the diamond system then it doesn't matter whether the kick is two inches or twenty feet. The method used is the same on both shots. A player can learn the diamond system and be hitting the ball on most kick shots in minutes with the right instruction. Learning the nuances will take quite a while longer.

If by "nuances" you mean "how do I modify my english and aim point to clear obstacle balls" then I agree. Anybody can learn to kick fairly quickly on an open table. Blocker balls make it much tougher to "tweak" the system. I'm not sure if jumping 6 inches to get over a ball vs jumping 2 feet to get over a ball has as many variables involved as the different spin, speed, and aim points to try to get a 3 rail shot through traffic. I don't think it does, but I certainly can't say authoritativelty.

The same thing applies to jump shots. you can learn to jump fairly quickly. Learning to do it proficiently takes practice. In my opinion it takes more skill to feather a ball just right and make the cueball go up table and nestle up behind another ball than it does to kick. There is no system I can learn for that shot.

I believe that players are not learning to jump because jumping is easier than kicking. It's not. They are learning to jump because it is part of the game and a skill that is vital to success at pool under the current rules. Any player who is serious about their game learns all aspects of the game.
John

I agree with what you and macguy have said about making the game call-safety and allowing push outs of unintentional ones. Getting BIH in reward for an unintentional safety is somewhat unbalanced, even though I am sure that the law of averages would show that it happens to everybody about the same number of times. You don't feel that you should be penalized for your opponent's poor play, but I am sure that there are a lot of players out there who don't mind when it happens in their favor.

I am sure you would. In many cases all it takes to play a safety is to drive a ball up table stopping the cue ball behind another ball, for that you want ball in hand? I know you are going to say, "well then learn to kick". There in lies the problem, a good kick is much harder to accomplish most of the time then the safety was to play. Your reward for doing almost nothing is too great. How about if you play me safe and I choose to kick, all I have to do is make a hit and I win the game. After all, if I don't make a hit I probably lose the game so why should you not be under the same jeopardy as me? Maybe play if you call safe and don't get me behind a ball I get ball in hand. It is probably no more ridiculous then the current ball in hand rule. Rules have to be fair to both players and ball in hand for a half assed safety or a lucky missed ball is just not fair.

Unintentional safeties are one thing, but called ones (in my hypothetical world) are different. If I call it, you have to shoot out of it no matter how easy it was for me to put you there. That's just playing the table and assessing the situiation. Complaining about that (IMO, obviously) is as silly as complaining that the 1 - 9 combo was left as a duck after the break and should be moved somewhere to make the shot harder. If the table lends itself to a good safety and the player sees it, calls it, and executes it then that's just playing smart IMO.

And before anybody asks, on an average day I would consider myself a strong C/weak B player at this point. Given a decent table I can generally run out from 5 balls, even though I won't jump to do it. I do kick better than a lot of players that I consider "better" than me, but that is probably because I need to. So take that into account when weighing my opinions.

 

[catscradle]

... John

John, I think when all is said and done some people like jump cues and some done, some people like jump shots and some don't. I don't really think there is anything to debate, it is just a matter of likes and dislikes. I don't like either, but as long as they are legal, I'll own a jump cue and make jump shots to the best of my ability.

I don't think anybody can argue with your statement that the jump cue doesn't make the jump, but it does make it easier and it does open the door to lesser skilled players to jump. You should be able to understand why somebody like Earl Strickland who can jump with a broomstick would be irritated with jump cues.

I also think that jump cues can short-circuit the learning process for younger players who are enchanted with the jump shot. I've seen plenty of young players pass by a beautiful (almost easy) kick oppourtunity to go for the jump because they just like to jump. They'll never learn to kick with or without a diamond system, admittedly to the detriment of their own game.

As far as your statement about Efren using a jump cue, I think that is a relatively recent development and clearly something he had to do in self-defense.

As the old saying from the 60's went "different strokes, for different folks."
Steve.

 

[Snapshot9]

debate ...

All this debating won't probably changes the rules.
I am sure many of these arguments were voiced
prior to the last set of Texas Express rules coming
out. Some of this rings like you are trying to get
9 ball to a cross of 1 hole and 14.1 in some ways.
If you get the cue ball closer enough behind the ball,
the person can not jump and will be forced to kick.
If they can not hit the object ball, you will get
ball in hand ... period

I think many people argue for kicking when they
can not jump, and many argue for jumping when
they can not kick (especially more than 1 rail).

The rules are made for everyone, not just a partisan
group that prefers one thing or another.

What is it, you can't win or feel cheated in some way,
so you want to change the rules .... Yes, I have
had people get lucky rolls against me, but it part of
the game, just like any other sport. That's just the
breaks ...

Question - If you have to call a safety, and don't get
safe, then would the incoming player have ball in hand.
You have to play the flip side of that coin too.

What about people that kick at a ball and pocket some
other ball? Does that count or not? I have seen a lot
of people get luckier with kick shots than jump shots.

Most players get lost on kicking when it goes beyond
1 rail anyway, except real good players.

 

[fxskater]

I don't speak up about this much, but i 100% agree with John (onepocketchump) here. Although i will also say that in the few games i seen him play he did pull out the jump cue on a few shots that he could have likely kicked out of better. But i will also say, it was in his promotional booth, everyone was having fun, he was demonstrating product, and in a MATCH situation there is no telling what he would have done.

Jump cues make jumping easier, it also makes the sellout easier if you just get the HIT and don't pocket it. If i kick and touch it, at the correct speed, i generally have a better chance of playing a safe, depending on the shot of course. If i am jumping i have a better chance of pocketing the ball, but an increased chance of selling out if i miss. There is a balance. Anyone that dislikes the Jump cue, obviously isn't imaginative enough to use one in the first place. I have played, jump to kick to safes, jump to a stop shot sending the OB around for a safety (well controlled), jump draw to get perfect shape. Guess what, most times there were other options, were they better? Sure, for someone that doesnt know how to use a jump cue corectly, the kick shots were better, easier shots. I spend a little time with a jump cue, and now a kick shot that i maybe would have 60% success with has been replaced with a jump shot i have a 70% chance of success. Anyone that thinks that the Jump cue has no place in pool, is mis-informed. Does it make the game easier? In some cases, and in some cases the kick is easier. What is your guys major problem with the Jump Cue? Why are break cues allowed? You can damage your playing cue just as easily with a jump shot as you can with a break shot. If your worried about hurting your cue on the break, break softer, that way we can save the history and purity of the game. In fact, lets not allow leather tips, chalk, or anything post 1900.

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, the best players are gonna win with or without jump cues. Look at Efren, jump cues are availiable, yet he chooses (mostly) not to use one. How about everyone that whines about JUMP CUES goes the EFREN route, DONT USE THEM. For me, I'm not going to take a lower percentage shot, if a higher percentage shot is there, and sometimes, thats a jump shot.

 

[onepocketchump]

John, I think when all is said and done some people like jump cues and some done, some people like jump shots and some don't. I don't really think there is anything to debate, it is just a matter of likes and dislikes. I don't like either, but as long as they are legal, I'll own a jump cue and make jump shots to the best of my ability.

I don't think anybody can argue with your statement that the jump cue doesn't make the jump, but it does make it easier and it does open the door to lesser skilled players to jump. You should be able to understand why somebody like Earl Strickland who can jump with a broomstick would be irritated with jump cues.

I would agree with you if Earl didn't use a "jump" cue himself. He has a CueTec that is shorter that he picks up for jump shots. There are two points that shouldn't be missed here. #1 is that if the equipment works then it works for everyone and the better player will be able to do more with it. #2 is that so-called "normal" pool cues are all different when it comes to jumping balls, and for most other shots as well. The poor jumping characteristics of Predator cues is ledgendary. Thus it is a fallacy to say that Earl "can jump with a broomstick. What you are seeing when you see a player who is good with a 58" cue is a player that has a cue with good characteristics for jumping and a good technique. Couple that technique with a cue not suited to jumping then you will see a drastic reduction in successful jump shots. Conversely, put a cue with good characteristics in the hands of someone with mediocre technique and they will have more success.

The answer is to provide the same tool for all. Modern jump cues have evolved to this point. So the tool is the same for all and someone of Earl's caliber will certainly benefit more than someone of my caliber.

I also think that jump cues can short-circuit the learning process for younger players who are enchanted with the jump shot. I've seen plenty of young players pass by a beautiful (almost easy) kick oppourtunity to go for the jump because they just like to jump. They'll never learn to kick with or without a diamond system, admittedly to the detriment of their own game.

As far as your statement about Efren using a jump cue, I think that is a relatively recent development and clearly something he had to do in self-defense.

As the old saying from the 60's went "different strokes, for different folks."
Steve.

I disagree with you here. Anyone who is serious about their game will learn everything there is to the game. Some people might prefer to jump over kicking and that is their right. I have had many young (and older) players seek my advice about how to kick balls. I have also seen the fools that would jump at anything. Great, that's just more money in the tournament pot from someone who is no threat to win it. Just like the guy who wants to juice the ball everytime instead of playing centerball shape. The tip makes it possible but the player is the one that either chooses the practical shot or not.

In what way can Efren's use of a jump cue be construed as a defensive measure? If we go from the premise that Efren is the best kicker in the game then he is none the worse for not using a jump cue. I prefer to think that he is using a jump cue to give himself more options when he comes to the table. I find that it is often preferable to be shooting directly at the object ball than kicking even one rail. On most jump shots you have a better shot at making the ball than with a kick shot no matter how good you kick. So Efren simply uses another tool to add more shots to his already impressive arsenal. Every time he comes to the table every kick shot he knows is still there for him to choose from AS WELL AS a whole bunch of jump shots.

I agree that some people don't like jump cues nor even jump shots. That's fine, but they shouldn't treat them as if there is some hallowed tradition that is being destroyed by the advent of jump cues.

I don't like the APA, the rules suck, the handicap system is flawed in my opinion, but you won't see me crusading about how they are ruining the traditional game of pocket billiards. I just don't play in their system. I am cutting myself our of the "chance" to win thousands and get free trips to Vegas but that's my choice. Same thing with jump cues - if you don't like them don't use them - just don't berate others for doing so.

Does this thread ever end? Does this debate? Go practice some pool.

) John

 

[Mungtor]

Jump cues make jumping easier, it also makes the sellout easier if you just get the HIT and don't pocket it.

That is somehow easier for your opponent than getting BIH? There is at least a chance that with a hit you won't leave your oppenent anything to shoot at either. One of those "accidental" safeties that seem to burn John so much. Or should it be BIH for your oppenent if you don't pocket the ball on your jump shot?

What is your guys major problem with the Jump Cue? Why are break cues allowed? You can damage your playing cue just as easily with a jump shot as you can with a break shot. If your worried about hurting your cue on the break, break softer, that way we can save the history and purity of the game. In fact, lets not allow leather tips, chalk, or anything post 1900.

For my part, I have nothing against jump cues in particular. It's the jump shot that IMO shouldn't be allowed. There is no jumping in snooker, and there is some real money and popularity for snooker players. I don't know about the money in 3C, but no jumping there either and it seems to be a popular game. Jumping is something that might catch the interest of an audience that doesn't really care anyway, but who does that help?

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, the best players are gonna win with or without jump cues.

Great. Let's get rid of them and the jump shot right now. It saves everybody money and it's one less thing to carry to the pool hall. The best players will still be the best, and everybody will win just as much as they did before.

Does this thread ever end? Does this debate? Go practice some pool.

) John

I'll let it die, but I'm generally here because I'm tied to the computer all day and can't go play anyway.

 

[T.Cox]

I have to disagree with the original post that Jump Cues make the shot. Yes a jump cue does make a 2 foot jump shot much easier than a full cue, but to be able to jump with accuracy is completely different. I can get over a full ball with OB and CB a little over a chalks width apart with my Jumpin' James. I learned how to do that from many hours of practice. Take an APA 2 or 3 and see how long it takes them to learn that. I have also seen Larry Nevel jump a full ball with them less than a chalks width apart. It unbelievable!!! Now take an OB hanging in the corner pocket and the CB by the same side pocket and you can teach that player how to make that kick in about 30 seconds. Each shot has its own art that you have to appreciate. The same way some people bank better and some cut better. The player needs to decide what they are comfortable with.

Pool needs all the glamour it can get if we want to get rid of its stereo type, adding the dimension of jump shots makes it a more exciting sport to watch for non-pool players. The more excitement you can add to the sport, the better off the sport is in my opinion. That just means bigger and better tournaments.

 

[catscradle]

...
Does this thread ever end?

Possibly it will, but another will start in 2 months.

Does this debate?

Absolutely not, but it would be nice if it did. I ultimately agree with you, I'll play according to whatever the rules dictate and I think the rules will always allow jump shots and most rules will always allow jump cues.

Go practice some pool.

) John

The best idea I've heard yet, and god knows I need the practice. As soon as I get home tonight, well after saying "hi" to the wife, I'll do just that.