Jumpers

[JB Cases]

At last! A rational, well concieved way to prove your claims. Sorry I can't take you up on your suggested bet though, for two reasons. 1. It's just a not very well concealed attempt at bullying me that I won't put up with. 2. I am just a poor dirt farmer from out west, and can't risk my seed money on that kind of thing. However I would be willing to accept the results of your proposed test as proof of your claims. Just do it with your own money. It should only cost you $800-$1000 dollars to have the table covered twice. Once for the test and once after. Then, if you are proven correct, you will enjoy some real satisfaction in victory, and as a bonus I will post a new thread with a very sincere and humble apology for any and all pain I may or may not have caused you during this discussion. I'll bump said post every day for a month just so everyone will be able to see how wrong I may have been. You do the same if I'm right. BB

I already have the satisfaction of selling thousands of jump cues in full knowledge that they brought a plethora of new shots to the game AND don't harm the table or balls.

Since you are so convinced then it's not a risk. You can bet the farm literally and double your yield in one shot.

You didn't cause me any pain. You have said nothing that hasn't been said many times before and been rebuffed equally as much.

I have said this a hundred times, if jump cues had been invented 50 or 100 years ago then they would be an accepted part of the game now with no debate. People like you and Shawn would be praising them as part of the integrity of the game.

 

[busby busybody]

I already have the satisfaction of selling thousands of jump cues in full knowledge that they brought a plethora of new shots to the game AND don't harm the table or balls.

Since you are so convinced then it's not a risk. You can bet the farm literally and double your yield in one shot.

You didn't cause me any pain. You have said nothing that hasn't been said many times before and been rebuffed equally as much.

I have said this a hundred times, if jump cues had been invented 50 or 100 years ago then they would be an accepted part of the game now with no debate. People like you and Shawn would be praising them as part of the integrity of the game.

Thank you, and good day. BB

 

[JB Cases]

If anyone cares to see some of the CONTROLLED shots that can be made using a jump cue then check out the videos I made many years ago -

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jbideastoo&search_type=&aq=f

Unfortunately we had a lot more footage that was even better with better shots that have been lost somewhere. One of these days I will make a new video with all those shots and more.

 

[JCurry]

This does happen when people aren't taught correctly. With a correct shot the tip doesn't contact the cloth ever.

I am sure that you have it down now though

That was the problem. I was never really taught how to jump. I more or less had to figure it out on my own. Watching Tom Rossman, Mike Massey and those guys on ESPN Trick Shot Magic helped quite a bit because I could see how they were setting up, where they were striking the bal, etc... After that it was just a lot of practice and then some new Simonis.

Yes, I have it down now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcRl0429WLU

 

[JB Cases]

That was the problem. I was never really taught how to jump. I more or less had to figure it out on my own. Watching Tom Rossman, Mike Massey and those guys on ESPN Trick Shot Magic helped quite a bit because I could see how they were setting up, where they were striking the bal, etc... After that it was just a lot of practice and then some new Simonis.

Yes, I have it down now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcRl0429WLU

Well, you sort of do.

We used to jump 2 liter bottles for fun with the standard Bunjee jumper.

The thing is while these types of videos are neat and fun to make they are what the anti-jump crowd uses to deny the validity of the cue. I wish more people would make videos showing how to use the cue in game situations and focus on controlling the cue ball. Then it would show that the shot is not a trick that is only possible with a gimmick cue.

In the video link above I show five game-situation jump shots. I show jump shots with spin and position. I have lost the bulk of the footage where we had so many great position shots on video and this was in 2002.

In your video you are focusing on the jump part of the shot more than the execution of the shot. If you notice the cue ball stops when you do three and four layers but is all over the place when you do the one and two layers. This is because you are forced to hit the cue ball well below center on the shots where you must get more height.

In the short jump shot you can do this shot without a Dr. Popper. You don't need an ultralight jump cue for this. We used to do chalk's width jump shots with a normal standard Bunjee, it's all in the stroke.

In fact I had someone show me how to jump a ball with a dollar bill's width in between. I can't do it consistently but it's possible.

Try focusing on cue ball control at the normal height. I think that you will find a lot more pleasure in figuring out how to stop, follow, draw, and add side spin to your jump shots. If you have already done this then show them off.

My dad gave me a sports camera for Christmas. When I get home and have time then I will try and do some videos with this camera strapped to the cue. Should be interesting. I will also be producing a more professional video with jump instruction since no one else has done it yet to my knowledge.

 

[mark smith]

I had to add my 2 cents to this thread. The tip of the cue does NOT have to come in contact with the cloth for cloth damage to occur. 1) The physics of downward force applied to to the cue ball combined with the friction between the ball and the cloth means that heat is generated. 2) This heat is concentrated on a very small amount of surface area (contact patch between the ball and the cloth). 3) This heat melts the cloth (as evidenced by the little white spots). Worn cloth has a tendancy to display more side to side movement on slow rolling balls and I think these little spots contribute to that. Did you ever notice how there is a divot where the '1' ball sits for the break, the same process is occurring with the cue ball striking the '1' ball above centerline, not only does the cloth take a beating, so does the slate, it actually becomes divoted also. We actually spun our tables around a couple of years ago for this reason. To sum it up in my opinion, any time the ball is struck with a downward stroke it will cause at least some small amount of damage to the cloth, but hey, nothing lasts forever.

 

[bazkook]

The owner of the local pool hall I frequent banned jump shots and masses several months ago after the cloth on one of the best tables had to be replaced twice within a year. There was one particular player who came in and would perform extreme masse shots with house cues just for the hell of it and I would cringe every time I heard the tip slam into the bed of the table. Ironically the primary reason for the ban of the jump shots and masses was not due to the fact that people were performing them and ripping the cloth(although eventually an inexperienced player would have ripped the cloth). The main reason for the ban was due to one of the more experienced players breaking and digging his break cue with a phenolic tip into the cloth.
I understand the reasons why some room owners would want to ban jumping and masses,but in the hands of a player who knows what they are doing,the jump cue is highly useful in getting out of spots where kicking is next to impossible. I agree with a previous poster's point about a good player knowing when to kick or jump. Too many people run to get their jump cue when they are hooked. Hell since the ban,my kicking skills have drastically improved. I still masse but not at an extreme angle like less experienced players do. I miss the ability to jump though,especially when I'm gambling and I know I can hit the object ball more likely with a jump shot than a kick shot.
Anyways that's just my $0.02. :wink:

 

[realkingcobra]

Where's the beef? You claim to have proof that jumping does't harm the cloth."Thousands of shots over almost ten years". Who shot them? You? Your pals? Where is the scientific evidence from an independent lab that supports your position? You can do all the "research" you want on your own in an effort to support your claims, but without unbiased facts prepared by a separate qualified entity your claims become anecdotal and useless in the realm of actual science. Your degree in mechanical engineering is from what school? Yes, I imply that you are biased since you admit to making money from the sale of these products no matter how small the slice of the pie that you said it is. That in itself does "obligate" you to stick to your guns no matter what the other guy says. It doesn't however "prove" anything with regard to your claims. Maybe you should take that $10,000 dollars you offer on a cheesy bet and use it to provide some truly factual evidence to support your so called "proof"

Repeated jumping of the cue ball in the same area of launch...DOES more than damage the cloth, it'll eventually wear through the cloth until the slate is completely exposed. Need proof, then you should have seen Mike Massey's Diamond 9ft ProAm I picked up from his house and delivered it to BigJohn's...an AZ member in TX. The cloth had no break marks on it, as Mike never practiced playing pool...only trick shots...and a LOT of jump shots. Maybe BigJohn still has some of the pictures of the table when he first got it, before I changed the cloth...I"ll ask him and see.

Another way to tell, Diamond supplies a lot of the booth tables for jump cue exibitors...when they get the tables back, before they can sell them...the bed cloths have to be changed....it's easier to sell a tournament used table than it is to sell a table that has been used for jump cue demonstrations.

I too......have 10's of thousands of hours in research business...of "Changing" table cloths...and I can tell if a table has been used to jump balls on...and one that has not

Glen

 

[JB Cases]

Repeated jumping of the cue ball in the same area of launch...DOES more than damage the cloth, it'll eventually wear through the cloth until the slate is completely exposed. Need proof, then you should have seen Mike Massey's Diamond 9ft ProAm I picked up from his house and delivered it to BigJohn's...an AZ member in TX. The cloth had no break marks on it, as Mike never practiced playing pool...only trick shots...and a LOT of jump shots. Maybe BigJohn still has some of the pictures of the table when he first got it, before I changed the cloth...I"ll ask him and see.

Another way to tell, Diamond supplies a lot of the booth tables for jump cue exibitors...when they get the tables back, before they can sell them...the bed cloths have to be changed....it's easier to sell a tournament used table than it is to sell a table that has been used for jump cue demonstrations.

I too......have 10's of thousands of hours in research business...of "Changing" table cloths...and I can tell if a table has been used to jump balls on...and one that has not

Glen

Um, repeated anything in one area will wear it out. When I rented tables from Diamond for the purpose of demonstrating and selling jump cues then I would pay extra for the new cloth to be put on later.

It's a given that when something is used for demo purposes that it will get more wear and tear. Or when someone practices something in the same spot over and over.

I am sure you are quite familiar with the breaking lanes on pool tables - the two lines that form a V going to the spot because everyone breaks from the same general area.

If someone came into my room and practiced the same shot over and over and over - no matter what shot that is then the table will get worn in that spot.

So, the point is anyway that it's not the JUMP CUE that is doing any harm to the cloth it is the act of jumping which is changing the cloth properties.

Mark says that the cloth is burned from the friction. I don't totally agree with this but I don't disagree either.

In the past several years I have learned a lot about how balls are made, using resin, both phenolic and polyester and this has caused me to rethink how materials react under pressure and heat.

If I accept Mark's claim that the balls are burning the cloth then the conclusion is that jump SHOTS should be banned because a jump shot performed with a 19oz cue is surely going to create more pressure and friction on the cloth than one done with an 8oz jump cue.

 

[realkingcobra]

The track lines you're talking about from the head of the table to the rack are caused by friction from launching the cue ball, to the cue ball bouncing before contact with the rack. The little white marks are actually the nylon in the weave of the cloth that is getting burnt by the friction from the cue ball, because no other ball can burn the nylon as they don't get hit at any kind of a downward angle driving them into the cloth. Now, with that said, if you don't think jump shots damage the cloth....try this test.

Break the rack from the same 1" area within the head of the table...500 times, then set up the cue ball to make a jump shot over another ball within say.....12" from the cue ball, then make that jump shot...500 times...then you'd know for sure...jump shots damage the cloth...now...I'll bet YOU....a $1,000 on that test....anytime you want...care to take me up on it...because you'll have the slate showing through the cloth where you jump from...LONG before you'll ever see it where you break from....because the angles of launch are quite a bit different:wink:

Glen

 

[JB Cases]

The track lines you're talking about from the head of the table to the rack are caused by friction from launching the cue ball, to the cue ball bouncing before contact with the rack. The little white marks are actually the nylon in the weave of the cloth that is getting burnt by the friction from the cue ball, because no other ball can burn the nylon as they don't get hit at any kind of a downward angle driving them into the cloth. Now, with that said, if you don't think jump shots damage the cloth....try this test.

Break the rack from the same 1" area within the head of the table...500 times, then set up the cue ball to make a jump shot over another ball within say.....12" from the cue ball, then make that jump shot...500 times...then you'd know for sure...jump shots damage the cloth...now...I'll bet YOU....a $1,000 on that test....anytime you want...care to take me up on it...because you'll have the slate showing through the cloth where you jump from...LONG before you'll ever see it where you break from....because the angles of launch are quite a bit different:wink:

Glen

And your point is?

I will bet you $1000 that Miliken Super Pro will hold out long than Simonis in this test. Let's make that bet.

So your entire point is that when the ball is struck from a higher angle that it compresses and wears the cloth out more?????

Ok, have I ever stated anything differently. I mean this is common sense.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

My assertion is that JUMP CUES do not harm the cloth. Maybe jumping does as Mark pointed out. I don't know that. I know that on MY TABLE I am able to bring the white marks out to the point where they are practically invisible. I use a damp cloth and wipe the table down and brush it and somehow the little white marks come out.

Now IF the table has been really beat on then no they don't all come out because it's called WEAR AND TEAR. It's is CLOTH after all and if you beat on it in one spot with downward force repeatedly then you will see wear in that spot. duh?

In my experience as a person who has done jump exhibitions all over the world and taught plenty of people to jump using a jump cue does not harm the cloth and it does not break the fibers. At least not the random jump shots that happen through the course of a session of play.

Any time you want to do that test of Simonis vs. Miliken regarding which one wears out faster I am up for it. I will be at the SBE next year and we can rock it then. I will pay for the Diamond table rental and the Milliken on my table and you provide the Diamond and Simonis on your table.

Just to make it real fun we will do the jump test and the break test and figure out some way to do a rub test as well.

 

[realkingcobra]

And your point is?

I will bet you $1000 that Miliken Super Pro will hold out long than Simonis in this test. Let's make that bet.

So your entire point is that when the ball is struck from a higher angle that it compresses and wears the cloth out more?????

Ok, have I ever stated anything differently. I mean this is common sense.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

My assertion is that JUMP CUES do not harm the cloth. Maybe jumping does as Mark pointed out. I don't know that. I know that on MY TABLE I am able to bring the white marks out to the point where they are practically invisible. I use a damp cloth and wipe the table down and brush it and somehow the little white marks come out.

Now IF the table has been really beat on then no they don't all come out because it's called WEAR AND TEAR. It's is CLOTH after all and if you beat on it in one spot with downward force repeatedly then you will see wear in that spot. duh?

In my experience as a person who has done jump exhibitions all over the world and taught plenty of people to jump using a jump cue does not harm the cloth and it does not break the fibers. At least not the random jump shots that happen through the course of a session of play.

Any time you want to do that test of Simonis vs. Miliken regarding which one wears out faster I am up for it. I will be at the SBE next year and we can rock it then. I will pay for the Diamond table rental and the Milliken on my table and you provide the Diamond and Simonis on your table.

Just to make it real fun we will do the jump test and the break test and figure out some way to do a rub test as well.

We'll have to work that out with the Simonis 860HR...you're a glutton for punishment...but that's OK:grin:...and the use of Jump Cues...promote Jumped Cueballs....therefore....the jump cue HELPS cause the damage from the cue ball deflecting off the cloth...but there's no way to win this discussion with you....because you SELL jump cues:grin: therefore...of course you're going to defend them by saying the "jump cues" don't damage the cloth, the cue ball does....but the jump cue is what is causing the cue ball to jump....therefore...it's the jump cues fault...that the cue ball...jumps:grin:

Glen

 

[JB Cases]

We'll have to work that out with the Simonis 860HR...you're a glutton for punishment...but that's OK:grin:...and the use of Jump Cues...promote Jumped Cueballs....therefore....the jump cue HELPS cause the damage from the cue ball deflecting off the cloth...but there's no way to win this discussion with you....because you SELL jump cues:grin: therefore...of course you're going to defend them by saying the "jump cues" don't damage the cloth, the cue ball does....but the jump cue is what is causing the cue ball to jump....therefore...it's the jump cues fault...that the cue ball...jumps:grin:

Glen

Yes I am definitely a glutton for punishment.

IF the cloth is "damaged" on a jump shot then I agree that more jump shots equals more damage.

However it is my experience that the cloth is not damaged by jump shots.

With the EXCEPTION of excessively repeated jump shots or masse shots or break shots from the same spot.

Now, this is also just my PERSONAL experience but I bought a table to take to shows for the purpose of doing the jump exhibitions. I also bought a couple cans of Quick Clean and one of the microfiber squeegees that David Hodges sells.

During the first two tournaments where I used this table I would clean it every hour or so with a big flourish using the Quick Clean to show everyone who happened to be standing there that by using this product as directed the spots which everyone standing there ASSUMED were permanent damage would MIRACULOUSLY disappear after the cleaning.

Not ALL of the spots because we did of course have a few areas on the table which were well used. But it was perfectly CLEAR to everyone standing there that jump shots and jump cues were not doing permanent damage to the cloth even with moderate to heavy use.

I used this table with the SAME cloth on it for two consecutive years with NO TEARS in the cloth whatsoever. It had Championship cloth on it.

I sold the table to John Stitch when I was done with it.

It was a Valley barbox.

Now of course this doesn't compare your millions of table recoverings but I have to ask how many jump cue demonstrations have you done?

I mean I have recovered about ten or so tables in my time and I wouldn't presume to tell you ANYTHING whatsoever about recovering a table.

So you think that you have the right to tell me what my product does or does not do?

The product that I have been working with for 12 years?

What makes you think that I would put out a product which damages the other equipment? Before I ever came to the USA and attempted to sell jump cues in a big way I tested it THOROUGHLY on my own table to be sure that I understood everything about it.

But beyond that Glen, the jump cue with the super hard or phenolic tip was on the market long before I entered the scene. It was on the market in Germany and Europe long before I showed up with the Bunjee Jumper.

Jump cues were common in Germany and people were already very proficient with them.

And guess what? There was no epidemic of damaged cloth from jump shots due to the use of jump cues and there is no such epidemic now.

There are only people like you who have little to no experience with the subject matter who are making claims that are simply no true.

Now, to Mark Smith I will defer a little on whether the balls are actually making a burn spot on the cloth or not because he is a room owner and he is also an engineer and he is my friend whom I highly respect. I deference to him coupled with what I now know that I didn't before about the composition of billiard balls I will say that it's possible that he is right. As to whether this is damage or not I think is a matter of debate.

Because as I said I can make the spots go away, and also because as I said there are no reports of wide scale cloth damage from the use of jump cues to jump balls.

And lastly to reiterate the point I made earlier whatever effect the jump shot has on the cloth it is surely less when a light cue is used as opposed to a heavy (full sized) one.

I will eagerly look forward to the test next year. Miliken has ONE cloth, Super Pro and it outperforms and outlasts Simonis, in my opinion, and the opinion of many room owners who are switching to it. I am sure it's tough enough to hold up to 500 jump shots without breaking a sweat.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes I am definitely a glutton for punishment.

IF the cloth is "damaged" on a jump shot then I agree that more jump shots equals more damage.

However it is my experience that the cloth is not damaged by jump shots.

With the EXCEPTION of excessively repeated jump shots or masse shots or break shots from the same spot.

Now, this is also just my PERSONAL experience but I bought a table to take to shows for the purpose of doing the jump exhibitions. I also bought a couple cans of Quick Clean and one of the microfiber squeegees that David Hodges sells.

During the first two tournaments where I used this table I would clean it every hour or so with a big flourish using the Quick Clean to show everyone who happened to be standing there that by using this product as directed the spots which everyone standing there ASSUMED were permanent damage would MIRACULOUSLY disappear after the cleaning.

Not ALL of the spots because we did of course have a few areas on the table which were well used. But it was perfectly CLEAR to everyone standing there that jump shots and jump cues were not doing permanent damage to the cloth even with moderate to heavy use.

I used this table with the SAME cloth on it for two consecutive years with NO TEARS in the cloth whatsoever. It had Championship cloth on it.

I sold the table to John Stitch when I was done with it.

It was a Valley barbox.

Now of course this doesn't compare your millions of table recoverings but I have to ask how many jump cue demonstrations have you done?

I mean I have recovered about ten or so tables in my time and I wouldn't presume to tell you ANYTHING whatsoever about recovering a table.

So you think that you have the right to tell me what my product does or does not do?

The product that I have been working with for 12 years?

What makes you think that I would put out a product which damages the other equipment? Before I ever came to the USA and attempted to sell jump cues in a big way I tested it THOROUGHLY on my own table to be sure that I understood everything about it.

But beyond that Glen, the jump cue with the super hard or phenolic tip was on the market long before I entered the scene. It was on the market in Germany and Europe long before I showed up with the Bunjee Jumper.

Jump cues were common in Germany and people were already very proficient with them.

And guess what? There was no epidemic of damaged cloth from jump shots due to the use of jump cues and there is no such epidemic now.

There are only people like you who have little to no experience with the subject matter who are making claims that are simply no true.

Now, to Mark Smith I will defer a little on whether the balls are actually making a burn spot on the cloth or not because he is a room owner and he is also an engineer and he is my friend whom I highly respect. I deference to him coupled with what I now know that I didn't before about the composition of billiard balls I will say that it's possible that he is right. As to whether this is damage or not I think is a matter of debate.

Because as I said I can make the spots go away, and also because as I said there are no reports of wide scale cloth damage from the use of jump cues to jump balls.

And lastly to reiterate the point I made earlier whatever effect the jump shot has on the cloth it is surely less when a light cue is used as opposed to a heavy (full sized) one.

I will eagerly look forward to the test next year. Miliken has ONE cloth, Super Pro and it outperforms and outlasts Simonis, in my opinion, and the opinion of many room owners who are switching to it. I am sure it's tough enough to hold up to 500 jump shots without breaking a sweat.

I've used Miliken Super Pro cloth before, so I'm going to ask you since you're promoting it...what is the wool/nylon blend of the cloth?

 

[MitchAlsup]

I happen to practice jumps on my home table with Simonis 760 cloth. Based on 1 year of this [ab]use, I have come to the conclusion, based on the ball marks on the cloth, that I get bigger, deeper, and more unsightly marks on the table from situations where the CB is (almost) frozen to the rail and draw is required to pull off the shot.

I have many more of these marks along the edge of my table than I have from practicing jumps almost every day. I think the difference is that once you have figured out the touch of the jump, you don't need to hit the CB into the bed "all that hard", whereas applying draw to a CB frozen on a rail does require a significant downward stroke to create the backspin.

Only my opinion and observation.

 

[realkingcobra]

So you think that you have the right to tell me what my product does or does not do?

The product that I have been working with for 12 years?

What makes you think that I would put out a product which damages the other equipment?

There are only people like you who have little to no experience with the subject matter who are making claims that are simply no true.

I will eagerly look forward to the test next year. Miliken has ONE cloth, Super Pro and it outperforms and outlasts Simonis, in my opinion, and the opinion of many room owners who are switching to it.

In 26 years of working as a table mechanic, I've seen the times change from before there was jump cues, to where now it seems everyone has and uses them. Which means I also remember how cloth use to look when I was first starting out as a mechanic in 1983...and what it looks like now when I recover a pool table, and believe me when I tell you....I can tell who owns a jump cue....from someone that don't...just by the look of their pool table before I even start working on it...NO EXPERIENCE...bite your tongue

When you say outlasts Simonis cloth....are you referring to all their cloths, 760, 860, 860HR....or to one in particular?...because if you're pointing your finger at the 860 Simonis....lets at least get apples to apples here...Milliken Super Pro is a 70%wool/30%nylon blend, 860 is only 90%wool/10% nylon blend....so if you want to play this challenge game, we'll do it with 860HR...then we're talking apples to apples. As I already told you before, I'll put both cloths on 2 tables side by side in the same location....oh wait, we've already had this conversation:grin:

Your move next...in this battle of he said, she said....we all said

Glen

 

[JB Cases]

In 26 years of working as a table mechanic, I've seen the times change from before there was jump cues, to where now it seems everyone has and uses them. Which means I also remember how cloth use to look when I was first starting out as a mechanic in 1983...and what it looks like now when I recover a pool table, and believe me when I tell you....I can tell who owns a jump cue....from someone that don't...just by the look of their pool table before I even start working on it...NO EXPERIENCE...bite your tongue

And in those 26 years how many jump cues have you sold? How many times did you personally do jump shot exhibitions and demos? I am going to guess that the answer is none.

So you are looking at it from one side as the guy who changes the cloth.

For you it's not a big deal either way as you get the job sooner or later.

For me it is a big deal as I don't want to sell any product which harms any other equipment. I don't want someone to go home with their new jump cue and it instantly tears up their table.

That's why I tried to tear up my own table before I ever sold the Bunjee in the USA.

That's why I spent a decade traveling around the world showing people how to jump and proving that the cloth doesn't get damaged.

I am sure by now you are the Sherlock Holmes of pool tables. At least you tell us you are and I have no reason to doubt you. So you can tell who owns a jump cue by the white marks in the cloth? Really? Ok? So what? Who cares? I bet I could teach the owners of those tables how to get most of the white marks out of their cloth.

Furthermore I am going to make another ridiculous bet.

I bet that I could set up two tables side by side and FORBID jumping of any kind on one of them and on the other allow jumping in regular games - not practice. And at the end of one month I bet that even you couldn't tell me which table was which.

Well anyway I can see that I need to do a couple video tutorials to prove my point. Good thing I am in the process of getting my little studio set up and learning how to use the video software. Hopefully sometime in the future I can just spend the time writing these posts in making videos that are far more effective in getting the point across.

When you say outlasts Simonis cloth....are you referring to all their cloths, 760, 860, 860HR....or to one in particular?...because if you're pointing your finger at the 860 Simonis....lets at least get apples to apples here...Milliken Super Pro is a 70%wool/30%nylon blend, 860 is only 90%wool/10% nylon blend....so if you want to play this challenge game, we'll do it with 860HR...then we're talking apples to apples.

As I said, my statement is based on anecdotal hearsay from room owners who have had both Simonis and Miliken. I don't know what version of Simonis they had but we can probably safely assume that most are referring to a version of 860.

I don't care if you want to put all versions of Simonis against the Miliken. I will take the worst of it and bet that Miliken beats all of them.

It's funny though that Simonis came out with this HR - what does that stand for, Humidity Resistant?, AFTER Milliken Super Pro was out with it's Spill Guard protection for a few years.

You are damn skippy that I am promoting Miliken Super Pro. Why? Because it's a better cloth that's why.

Because I have had it on my demo tables and let Jamison Neu do his massive masse' shots for a month and let people practice jump shots to their heart's content and it held up PERFECTLY, still looked great and still played great after all that use.

I know that everyone has this idea that Simonis is the best. What they are is the most well known. As they should be after 80 odd years in the market.

They are however not the only mill in the world capable of producing good pool table cloth. Strachan (pronounced Strawn) which is the company that Miliken bought has been producing billiard table cloth for as long as Simonis has.

And in fact they dominate the market for snooker cloth as far as I know. In Europe they are gaining steady ground against Simonis as more and more clubs are replacing their Simonis with Miliken Super Pro.

So my challenge is not without some evidence to back it up. I only have everything to gain to and nothing to lose. Because I 100% certain that Miliken is as good and 98.5% certain that Miliken is better and lasts longer. So as good works for me as well because it costs less than Simonis.

So having nothing to lose I willingly go all in and bet that not only will 500 jump shots not harm the Milliken cloth but that the Simonis (any type) will wear through faster than Miliken Super Pro will.

I don't know how many jump shots it takes to wear through the cloth. Maybe 10, maybe 100, maybe 1000 but I am sure it's less on Super Pro.

See you next year at the Super Billiards Expo.





As I already told you before, I'll put both cloths on 2 tables side by side in the same location....oh wait, we've already had this conversation:grin:

Your move next...in this battle of he said, she said....we all said

Glen[/QUOTE]

 

[realkingcobra]

And in those 26 years how many jump cues have you sold? How many times did you personally do jump shot exhibitions and demos? I am going to guess that the answer is none.

What in the hell does selling jump cues have to do with judging what has caused damage to the cloth on a pool table?

So you are looking at it from one side as the guy who changes the cloth.

And at the end of one month I bet that even you couldn't tell me which table was which.

When you've been recovering tables as long as I have, you'll be able to tell if left handed player play on a table, or right handed players, and whether or not 9ball is the dominate game played, or 8 ball on a table, so....I'll be able to tell which table has been used as the jump table....just as soon as you let anyone do jump shots on the table YOU doing jump shots....do NOT represent the rest of the world doing jump shots. In a pool room full of Diamond tables in Rapid City, SD...I can tell you exactly which table SVB has been practicing jump shots on.....and you can bet what ever you wont on that one

It's funny though that Simonis came out with this HR - what does that stand for, Humidity Resistant?, AFTER Milliken Super Pro was out with it's Spill Guard protection for a few years.You're digging a hole, the Simonis 860HR came out well over 20 years ago, it was originaly humidity resistant, and just about 2 years ago, the HR was changed to High resistance...when did Milliken Super Pro come out with its Spill Guard Protection again?....Before or After Simonis the 860Hr?

You are damn skippy that I am promoting Miliken Super Pro. Why? Because it's a better cloth that's why.Because it's something you can sell to make money

I know that everyone has this idea that Simonis is the best. What they are is the most well known. As they should be after 80 odd years in the market.80 years in the market???????????????....get your facts straight if you're going to try and make Simonis look bad when compared to your Milliken....try about 330 years....that quite a bit longer than 80 years...don't you think? How long has Milliken been manufacturing pool table cloth????

Read between the lines

 

[JB Cases]

Sorry Glen,

I don't go in and answer posts where people put everything inside my post.

There is a button for separating quotes.

But I will answer a few of your points.

A. Selling jump cues has a lot to do with judging damage to a table BECAUSE if they did cause damage then Bob Jewett would have had them banned years ago. Why Bob Jewett you ask? Because Bob Jewett has been part of the BCA and I think the WPA rule committee for longer than jump cues have been around. So it's INCUMBENT upon the sellers of jump cues to make sure that their product or the shots made with their product DO NOT damage the table (and I should add for you - UNDER NORMAL USE)

B. So you can tell which table Shane's been practicing jump on? And this makes you special? Who couldn't tell that someone had been practicing jumps and masses on a table?

I said - and I will repeat it again - that if we set up two tables side by side and on one table players are allowed to jump but not allowed to practice jump shots and on the other table players are not allowed to jump at the end of ONE MONTH you will not be able to tell which table was the NO JUMPING table.

C. Simonis HR - ok I stand corrected - I had never heard of it until a few years ago. Sterling never carried it either and we sell a good bit of Simonis. Gee, you'd think Simonis would have tried harder to get this awesome cloth that you are in love with into Sterling's catalog. So on this point I gladly defer to your superior knowledge.

As for touting Miliken - I proudly promote it because it's a better cloth. We sell Simonis to those who want it, we sell other brands to people who want it and we "make money" on all those brands. If we wanted to make MORE MONEY on cloth then we would import some cloth from China and make up a brand name and advertise the hell out of it using the profits to strong arm our way into the market.

D. I said 80 years in the market and I meant the US market. I guess I have no real idea how long Simonis has been in the US market. I know that Mali used to be the exclusive US distributer for Simonis and in the 30s there were many other brands of table cloth in the market.

The guys at Strachan told us that their mill is as old as Simonis' mill in Belgium. I will take their word for it. So if it's 330 year then Strachan is also at least 330 years old.

I don't know how long Miliken (Strachan) has been making billiard cloth. I say billiard cloth because that's what they make snooker and billiard cloth. Billiards being, carom billiards and pocket billiards.

I do know that I think that their cloth is superior to any other on the market. And it cost less, fact. And lasts longer reportedly.

Oh and plays better according to Jeremy Jones who won the BCA's EnjoyPool.com event in Charlotte a few years ago.

 

[Klopek]

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