jumping up on critical shot...

[Pidge]

I think I understand what you are trying to do with this type of suggestion & while it may work for some, I am not so sure that I would agree that it is the best approach.

If & if is a big word, it is done properly & the timing conforms & matches to one's normal stroke I can see how it might work okay.

The possible problem that I see is that it is making the physical execution of pocketing that case ball different than all of the other shots.

I think we all mostly are in agreement that the problem is not really anything physical but instead psychological in nature.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this method seems to be treating the symptom more than the cause & may actually contribute the root cause

I want to 'treat' the real problem so that I, my body, is free from that bad psychological influence so that my body can function normally.

I don't mean to be critical & realise that I am perhaps nit picking.

I'm just offering some food for thought.

Best to ALL,
Rick

PS This is just my personal take & like Dennis Miller so often says, I could be wrong.

The root cause is anxiety, Rick. I'm not a doctor so I cant prescribe some medicinal relief. If you tool the time to read my post they wouldn't be doing anything different. The counting technique is structured in practice and revolves around their own natural timing. You know, when you really hit a ball well in practice and stroke it sweet as a nut? If you record yourself hitting such a shot then you can watch it back and try a simple counting technique to sync with the stroke. Then when the pressure is on you then simply time your stroke to this counting technique. You are basically timing your stroke to your natural rhythm.

Please, just because me an Fran had a disagreement doesn't give you the right to come picking apart what I say. But, you will always pick apart what people say about your forum heros. Next time though, read my post thoroughly before trying to pick it apart.

This method has been proven to work. It was brought up by Nic Barrow in a lesson for my nephew that I was overlooking and it worked absolute wonders for him. I've since offered the advice to several others who have had the same issue and again, it worked wonders. No reason why it shouldn't work wonders for the OP.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The root cause is anxiety, Rick. I'm not a doctor so I cant prescribe some medicinal relief. If you tool the time to read my post they wouldn't be doing anything different. The counting technique is structured in practice and revolves around their own natural timing. You know, when you really hit a ball well in practice and stroke it sweet as a nut? If you record yourself hitting such a shot then you can watch it back and try a simple counting technique to sync with the stroke. Then when the pressure is on you then simply time your stroke to this counting technique. You are basically timing your stroke to your natural rhythm.

Please, just because me an Fran had a disagreement doesn't give you the right to come picking apart what I say. But, you will always pick apart what people say about your forum heros. Next time though, read my post thoroughly before trying to pick it apart.

This method has been proven to work. It was brought up by Nic Barrow in a lesson for my nephew that I was overlooking and it worked absolute wonders for him. I've since offered the advice to several others who have had the same issue and again, it worked wonders. No reason why it shouldn't work wonders for the OP.

It has nothing to do with Fran Crimi.

But like others you think yourself omniscient as to why others do what they do & what they are really thinking etc.

I did say IF done to match one's normal stroke I could see where it might work well for some, BUT I AM NOT SURE that it is the BEST approach.

I was just offering food for thought as, TO ME, it is putting focus on the problem. That's MY opinion. Sort of like looking at where you do not want to hit a ball.

TO ME, the method is treating the symptom & not the cause.

I do have a 'RIGHT' to MY opinion.

It sounds like it is YOU that does not like your 'god' Nick Barrow's methods questioned or disagreed with.

The OP has the 'RIGHT' to hear other opinions.

I did NOT say it was a totally bad idea or anything like that. Sometimes the symptom needs to be treated before the cause can even be determined. I was offering MY opinion.

Maybe you are over reacting to my post because of the back & forth you had with Ms. Crimi. I don't know.

I have no 'heroes' here, but I have come to learn from exposure to respect both Ms. Crimi & CJ when it comes to playing pool as they were/are Pro 'Players'... just as you respect Mr. Barrow.

My apologies to the OP for my post causing Pidge to go off... on tilt.

 

[Pidge]

It has nothing to do with Fran Crimi.

But like others you think yourself omniscient as to why others do what they do & what they are really thinking etc.

I did say IF done to match one's normal stroke I could see where it might work well for some, BUT I AM NOT SURE that it is the BEST approach.

I was just offering food for thought as, TO ME, it is putting focus on the problem. That's MY opinion. Sort of like looking at where you do not want to hit a ball.

TO ME, the method is treating the symptom & not the cause.

I do have a 'RIGHT" to MY opinion.

It sounds like it is YOU that does not like your 'god' Nick Barrow's methods questioned or disagreed with.

The OP has the 'RIGHT' to hear other opinions.

I did NOT say it was a totally bad idea or anything like that. Sometimes the symptom needs to be treated before the cause can even be determined. I was offering MY opinion.

Maybe you are over reacting to my post because of the back & forth you had with Ms. Crimi. I don't know.

I have no 'heroes' here, but I have come to learn from exposure to respect both Ms. Crimi & CJ when it comes to playing pool as they were/are Pro 'Players'... just as you respect Mr. Barrow.

My apologies to the OP for my post causing Pidge to go off tilt.

Oh god not the caps, RICK. I'm more than capable of reading the written language and picking the key words from sentences without you having to capitalise them.

I'm not off tilt, I just don't like you.

Rather than questioning my posts why don't you set about giving some advice on how to stop the anxiety this player is having?

I have an idea. Anxiety is caused by fear and nerves. The guy has fear and nerves when he has a money ball situation. I offer a method that doesn't at first solve the anxiety, but it gives the player a way to lessen and limit the effects of has on their body. Over time, the method starts working and the player doesn't have an issue on key balls more than any other ball. Therefore the player now knows he has just as much chance of making this ball as he did the previous. Boom, he no longer gets anxious and has confidence in his abilities. The jumping up on shots stops, no reason for him to get nervous so he can now choose to stop using this method if he so wishes. There you go Rick, that is me solving the root cause of him jumping.

Now do us all a favour and get a bread knife and place it under the CAPS and SHFT buttons and pop them right out of the keyboard. That's a good OAP.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Oh god not the caps, RICK. I'm more than capable of reading the written language and picking the key words from sentences without you having to capitalise them.

I'm not off tilt, I just don't like you.

Rather than questioning my posts why don't you set about giving some advice on how to stop the anxiety this player is having?

I have an idea. Anxiety is caused by fear and nerves. The guy has fear and nerves when he has a money ball situation. I offer a method that doesn't at first solve the anxiety, but it gives the player a way to lessen and limit the effects of has on their body. Over time, the method starts working and the player doesn't have an issue on key balls more than any other ball. Therefore the player now knows he has just as much chance of making this ball as he did the previous. Boom, he no longer gets anxious and has confidence in his abilities. The jumping up on shots stops, no reason for him to get nervous so he can now choose to stop using this method if he so wishes. There you go Rick, that is me solving the root cause of him jumping.

Now do us all a favour and get a bread knife and place it under the CAPS and SHFT buttons and pop them right out of the keyboard. That's a good OAP.

Well, you did not exhibit much reading comprehension of my earlier post so the caps seem to be appropriate given your misinterpretation of my earlier post.

AND I do NOT need your PERMISSION or INSTRUCTION on how I CHOOSE to post.

I HAVE given my suggestion to the OP as I have complimented both Mr. Lutz & Ms. Crimi.

The hypothetical scenario you lay out proves nothing as it could possibly also make some individuals' similar problem worse.

My post was to offer food for thought to the OP & anyone reading here & I have done that.

You've made yourself clear as to why you made your post on top of mine.

Best Wishes for you,

PS I even recommended that the OP might want to give your other thread a look.

 

[croscoe]

Off tilt ?

Not to hijack the thread as it already seems to have been..:shakehead:

But what is OFF tilt.....Based on the English language please.


If tilt is off axes or off norm.... would off tilt not be on axes or in the norm.

Like a double negative? YES---NO ?

OP..... good luck hope this thread cure or resolves your issue...:thumbup:

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I would like to end our interactions here. I have read enough of your posts and seen what you are like. And I've finally come to the conclusion that you aren't the person I expected you to be and not the kind of person I would like to be around. Once you learn to cut out all the bitterness to others who post in this forum whose ideas and opinions go against what you believe you will reap the benefits.

I think you are out of line here, man. Fran is a great instructor and a real nice lady in person. She doesn't back down when she knows she's right, and she's right here, which is why she is willing to go toe-to-toe with you. Maybe you prefer your women to "know their place", but that won't happen with Fran. She's no shrinking violet, but she's good people.

Regarding the yips, you should do some research about the condition before flapping yer yap about it. You say anxiety is at the root, I say no one is sure what causes it, but it may actually be biochemical in nature. Some folks affected by it have actually switched handedness in order to combat it and have had success. Did switching hands alleviate their anxiety?

Nerves can break you, that's for sure, but the yips is something different. It usually affects those who have been at their activity for a long time, long enough to have gotten a handle on the anxiety issue. Why would performance anxiety suddenly rear its ugly head only after 20 years or more at the game? That's when the yips usually manifests itself. And if it's just anxiety, why wouldn't a little Xanax just make it disappear?

Anyway, carry on, I'm sure you think you are right... as always.

 

[Pidge]

Xanax, booze, cannabis...they all might work but none would be recommended by anyone who suffers anxiety when at the pool table. So hence why I offered another cure.

I have a lot of respect for Fran, and I sire she is a very good instructor. But she needs to get her head around the fact that others can offer advice and just because it is different to hers doesn't make it wrong. She does it all the time. Knowing you are right and being right are two different things. And as with Fran, I don't back down when I know I'm right.

We are two personalities that just aren't meant to get on.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Xanax, booze, cannabis...they all might work but none would be recommended by anyone who suffers anxiety when at the pool table.

No, sorry, all of them may work to reduce anxiety, but none of them will help with the yips. Here's a good start to a modern understanding of this baffling disorder. Hope it helps you.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/yips/basics/definition/con-20031359

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-yips-plague-and-the-battle-of-mind-over-matter/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/47124896/the-yips-difficult-to-understand-difficult-to-cure

I have a lot of respect for Fran, and I sire she is a very good instructor. But she needs to get her head around the fact that others can offer advice and just because it is different to hers doesn't make it wrong. She does it all the time. Knowing you are right and being right are two different things. And as with Fran, I don't back down when I know I'm right.

We are two personalities that just aren't meant to get on.

I'm glad to hear that you at least respect her. Many other instructors here haven't in the past, mostly the ones who only come on here to sell lessons or something. Fran is one of a handful of qualified teachers who actually takes the time to get to the root of a player's problems, and her insight is quite amazing at times. But there is no doubt in my mind that some other instructors team up on occasion to put her down or insult her. Can't say I'd take it as well as she has.

Sure, she has a "take no prisoners" attitude here at times. After I booked a lesson with her I was actually nervous the whole ride to NYC that we wouldn't hit it off, based only on a few minor wars she got involved in here. Nothing could have been further from the truth. It turned out to be a great afternoon for me, in no small part due to her warm and friendly personality in real life.

The Internet sucks. We'd prolly all get along in the pool hall. Here... not so much.

 

[FranCrimi]

No, sorry, all of them may work to reduce anxiety, but none of them will help with the yips. Here's a good start to a modern understanding of this baffling disorder. Hope it helps you.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/yips/basics/definition/con-20031359

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-yips-plague-and-the-battle-of-mind-over-matter/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/47124896/the-yips-difficult-to-understand-difficult-to-cure




I'm glad to hear that you at least respect her. Many other instructors here haven't in the past, mostly the ones who only come on here to sell lessons or something. Fran is one of a handful of qualified teachers who actually takes the time to get to the root of a player's problems, and her insight is quite amazing at times. But there is no doubt in my mind that some other instructors team up on occasion to put her down or insult her. Can't say I'd take it as well as she has.

Sure, she has a "take no prisoners" attitude here at times. After I booked a lesson with her I was actually nervous the whole ride to NYC that we wouldn't hit it off, based only on a few minor wars she got involved in here. Nothing could have been further from the truth. It turned out to be a great afternoon for me, in no small part due to her warm and friendly personality in real life.

The Internet sucks. We'd prolly all get along in the pool hall. Here... not so much.

You are a very cool guy. Thank you.

Thanks for posting those articles. The Wicki article mentioned that Stephen Hendry had the yips for 10 years. Very interesting stuff.

 

[SmoothStroke]

Stand over shot, analyze situation at hand
Look into the black of the pocket, beyond the shelf, focus on this with soft eyes.
Drop down into the shot line and do your thing,
Lock your chin and shoulder
Put a little more effort into the tip to cue ball accuracy, lock in, focus and concentate to hit the cue ball where you intend.
Deliver the stroke, watching the object ball hit the black or drop off the shelf.
Do not move your head, just slide your eyes to the cue ball and send the cue ball into position with your eyes, not your head.
Do this on every shot, not just critical shots,.Your focus and concentration sets deeper. it becomes robotic
You have to use reminders, remind yourself to do things repetively every time until it becomes second nature, and practice them.

It's really very simple, I read so much complicated jumble I want to stick needles in my eyes.
Basic Fundamentals
Straight Stroke
A Stroke
Command of cue ball

 

[FranCrimi]

I think your logic is sound here, Fran. I don't mean to sound presumptive or patronizing regarding APA 7s having solid fundamentals and etc. by the way, and I spoke to the player off line by PM about his situation before making my post.

But redact the situation backward--someone who jumps up on game balls will start jumping on other balls--probably--therefore I suggested the video. This problem not nipped in the bud will increase... and just because a player says he only jumps up on game balls doesn't mean he is endlessly running six and seven balls then jumping up only on shot #8. He might indeed be jumpy a little here and there and this problem has been exacerbated by game pressures--which is why I suggested some video from the player. My theory is just that until I see video, just as declaring his issues as psychological only may help him restore his league status while not perhaps helping him win the U.S. Open! Video would be a good idea here IMHO.

So, you had a private conversation with the OP before you posted your response. And you're saying now that you were responding publicly based on something that was discussed in private.

Stuff like this does damage to a thread that could have potentially helped someone who has a similar problem to the original question, and who might have been reading it with interest.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Thanks for posting those articles. The Wicki article mentioned that Stephen Hendry had the yips for 10 years. Very interesting stuff.

Yeah, all this neurological stuff has always been intriguing to me. I suffered from a few nasty neurological disorders after getting a bad case of Lyme meningitis. Basically, the Lyme disease bacteria got into my central nervous system and caused a lot of damage before proper antibiotic treatment was started. I still have problems more than 5 years later, making many simple activities more complex for me.

Best I can find out about the yips is that it is a form of focal dystonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_dystonia

This disorder is well known to musicians, and it has nothing at all to do with anxiety. Folks simply lose control of certain muscles, usually the ones that oppose or moderate the primary desired motion. In cue sports, that might mean that just as you are pulling the trigger, the triceps also engages instead of relaxing, forcing you to decelerate through the stroke. Heck, that would make anybody jump up on a shot.

In Hendry's case, it is likely that his condition (and yes, it is a medical condition) takes enough off his stroke that he can't play the game at his previous level. After an illustrious career that is nearing an end anyway, he may have thought it best to retire rather than spend years rebuilding the proper neural pathways.

It has been mentioned on another thread that Hendry's poor performance at the recent Chinese 8-ball has to do with his eyesight. Well, all I can say is my dad was 88 when he died and he still had better than 20-20 distance vision. I doubt that at 46 Hendry is washed up because he can't see the ball any longer. He made some horrific misses on a 9' table in the C8B I watched against Strickland. I'd bet that was about 99% due to his yips forcing him to mishit the ball terribly, and very little to do with his "failing" eyesight.

 

[SmoothStroke]

Stand over shot, analyze the situation at hand

Look into the black of the pocket, beyond the shelf; focus on this with soft eyes, crawling in the track.

Lock your chin and shoulder

Drop down into the shot line and do your thing.

Put a little more effort into the tip to cue ball accuracy, lock in, focus and concentrate to hit the cue ball where you intend. Any deviation off the target may result in some very unhappy results.

Deliver the stroke, watching the object ball hit the black or drop off the shelf, following the track line to the black no matter where it drops. Do not move your head, stop doing that.

Do not move your head, just slide your eyes to the cue ball and send the cue ball into position with your eyes, not your head. Keep that big head still, use your eyes.
Do this on every shot, not just critical shots, every shot. Your focus and concentration sets deeper, it becomes robotic.

You have to use reminders, remind yourself to do things every time until it becomes second nature, and practice them, again, it becomes robotic.
It's pretty difficult to jump off shots when you use these methods.

It's really very simple, I read so much complicated jumble I want to stick needles in my eyes.

Basic Fundamentals
Straight Stroke
A Stroke
Command of the cue ball
A great imagination
P.H.D. is not necessary, it's not rocket science.

If you want to get crazy and discuss how to drop the cue from the moon to the hip, feel the gait of the stroke, the movie review, zero to 100% bridge, and so on and so on.
I am easy to find.

Best of luck and stay down, stop doing that.

 

[FranCrimi]

Yeah, all this neurological stuff has always been intriguing to me. I suffered from a few nasty neurological disorders after getting a bad case of Lyme meningitis. Basically, the Lyme disease bacteria got into my central nervous system and caused a lot of damage before proper antibiotic treatment was started. I still have problems more than 5 years later, making many simple activities more complex for me.

Best I can find out about the yips is that it is a form of focal dystonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_dystonia

This disorder is well known to musicians, and it has nothing at all to do with anxiety. Folks simply lose control of certain muscles, usually the ones that oppose or moderate the primary desired motion. In cue sports, that might mean that just as you are pulling the trigger, the triceps also engages instead of relaxing, forcing you to decelerate through the stroke. Heck, that would make anybody jump up on a shot.

In Hendry's case, it is likely that his condition (and yes, it is a medical condition) takes enough off his stroke that he can't play the game at his previous level. After an illustrious career that is nearing an end anyway, he may have thought it best to retire rather than spend years rebuilding the proper neural pathways.

It has been mentioned on another thread that Hendry's poor performance at the recent Chinese 8-ball has to do with his eyesight. Well, all I can say is my dad was 88 when he died and he still had better than 20-20 distance vision. I doubt that at 46 Hendry is washed up because he can't see the ball any longer. He made some horrific misses on a 9' table in the C8B I watched against Strickland. I'd bet that was about 99% due to his yips forcing him to mishit the ball terribly, and very little to do with his "failing" eyesight.

Wow. That's tough, both for you and Hendry. I imagine the physical stuff is really tough to overcome.

 

[ENGLISH!]

No, sorry, all of them may work to reduce anxiety, but none of them will help with the yips. Here's a good start to a modern understanding of this baffling disorder. Hope it helps you.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/yips/basics/definition/con-20031359

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-yips-plague-and-the-battle-of-mind-over-matter/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/47124896/the-yips-difficult-to-understand-difficult-to-cure




I'm glad to hear that you at least respect her. Many other instructors here haven't in the past, mostly the ones who only come on here to sell lessons or something. Fran is one of a handful of qualified teachers who actually takes the time to get to the root of a player's problems, and her insight is quite amazing at times. But there is no doubt in my mind that some other instructors team up on occasion to put her down or insult her. Can't say I'd take it as well as she has.

Sure, she has a "take no prisoners" attitude here at times. After I booked a lesson with her I was actually nervous the whole ride to NYC that we wouldn't hit it off, based only on a few minor wars she got involved in here. Nothing could have been further from the truth. It turned out to be a great afternoon for me, in no small part due to her warm and friendly personality in real life.

The Internet sucks. We'd prolly all get along in the pool hall. Here... not so much.

Very good post.

I agree with you in regards to Fran Crimi & much of what you say as to how others interact with her here.

IMHO Fran Crimi is the Best Instructor that I have seen here on AZB.

I think many including you & I would get along much better in any other situation other than on an internet text only forum format.

Again, a very good post.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[SmoothStroke]

You don't have the yips. don't dwell on it, you can talk yourself into yipping.
Be careful what you read, especially what I write.

Best of luck