jumping up on critical shot...

Pidge said:
I have a friend who jumps up on power draw shots. He never learns and often messes them up. The problem he has is he thinks he has to hit the ball harder than is actually needed. The biceps and deltoid muscles in his arm try doing the work for him and this causes severe tension in the arm and too much movement in the shoulder. I call it a shoulder drop. The shoulder doesn't really drop, but it tenses and causes the elbow to start dropping and the natural reaction is to raise up the torso to avoid smashing your hand into the table. This may or may not be the problem, but I would assume there is some tension in the arm.

Psychological problems also cause tension throughout the body. A pause that's not normal there in your stroke, or a pause that's longer than normal can cause tension and ruins ones natural timing of the shot and the biceps and deltoid take over and think oh crap, we need to really force this shot because the cues stopped when it wasn't meant to. The same can happen if you don't pause, but instead stroke quicker than normal. The brain recognises something isn't quite right and tells the arm to do more work.

When practicing count in your head. Notice how many warm up strokes you do and at what tempo. If say you have 3 practice strokes normally...count them out. And if "banana" fits in with your tempo ie 1banana 2banana 3banana etc. The word doesn't matter. What matters is finding a word that when you say it in your head fits in perfectly with your practice strokes. Then do the same for the final stroke. If you pause at the cue ball count how long it is. Count how long it takes you to pull the cue back. If you pause at the end of the back stroke count that too. Then hit the cue ball. Write it all down and keep practicing this.

Firstly this will get you to stop thinking when in the heat of the moment and down on a shot. All you think about is your counting rhythm which can stop any anxiety you may have. It also ensures your timing is as it should be...natural. This is quite a "thinking outside the box" approach, but it has helped me over the course of my life when at the table.
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I'm confused. What does this have to do with the yips? Are you saying that you suffered from the yips and that you cured your problem this way?
 
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Donny Lutz said:
Thanks! I just passed sixty years since I started playing.

I prefer to be called "Donny" rather than "Mr. Lutz"!
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That's Great Mr. Donny.

I just turned 61 Yrs. Old in Sept, of 2014.

If I can make 12 more years I'll reach that 60 years of playing the game.

You Take Care...Donny,:wink:
Rick
 
FranCrimi said:
Sorry, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here. What is it that you've seen time and time before?
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Players jumping up on shots. Its always because they get out of their natural rhythm either in playing speed or in the timing of their stroke. If a player can help their timing of their cue action with a simple counting method to keep it as close to natural as possible then they tend not to jump up. The counting also helps clear their mind of unwanted thoughts. All they are thinking about is counting and keeping their cue action fluid and smooth.
 
Pidge said:
Players jumping up on shots. Its always because they get out of their natural rhythm either in playing speed or in the timing of their stroke. If a player can help their timing of their cue action with a simple counting method to keep it as close to natural as possible then they tend not to jump up. The counting also helps clear their mind of unwanted thoughts. All they are thinking about is counting and keeping their cue action fluid and smooth.
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OK, I think I understand now. You're saying that the OP does not have the yips. His problem is something different. He only thinks he has the yips, but you know better because you see this kind of thing all the time. Did I get that right?
 
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FranCrimi said:
OK, I think I understand now. You're saying that the OP does not have the yips. His problem is something different. He only thinks he has the yips, but you know better because you see this kind of thing all the time. Did I get that right?
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Yes, you got that spot on. It only took several exchanges between us, but you got there in the end. Well done.
 
Pidge said:
Yes, you got that spot on. It only took several exchanges between us, but you got there in the end. Well done.
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You're right. It did take awhile but we finally got there.

Now the op finally knows what you should have told him in your first post, and that is that you believe that he was wrong and that he doesn't have the yips, and that your suggestion is based on that belief.

If you're going to teach, then take the time to be clear.
 
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FranCrimi said:
You're right. It did take awhile but we finally got there.

Now the op finally knows what you should have told him in your first post, and that is that you believe that he was wrong and that he doesn't have the yips, and that your suggestion is based on that belief.

If you're going to teach, then take the time to be clear.
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If a patient walked into the doctors office and was adamant they had broken their leg, would the doctor take their word and get straight to putting a cast on?

The answer is no, by the way. Just putting that out there so it doesn't take several exchanges between us before you finally get the point.

I (the doctor), took what information was given to me by the OP (the patient) and made a diagnosis (my first post, if you're wondering) based on that information. I still believe it is anxiety and that anxiety brings tensing of the muscles involved in performing a pool stroke. My diagnosis of a cure for this anxiety was to clear the mind and not to think about the last few times they jumped up. One of they ways suggested was to perform a counting exercise when under pressure to take their mind off of rising up during the shot. Its easy to say don't think about jumping up on this shot, but that's hard to do so I suggested a way to not think about it by keeping the mind occupied with trying to time their stroke to a counting rhythm.

You may choose to believe what I say is utter BS. That's ok. I'm sure many people on here think my posts are BS too. But because my advice wasn't in agreement with you isn't any reason to doubt my teaching abilities. You are old enough to surely understand people will have different teaching methods and outlooks on what works for certain problems players may have.
 
Pidge said:
If a patient walked into the doctors office and was adamant they had broken their leg, would the doctor take their word and get straight to putting a cast on?

The answer is no, by the way. Just putting that out there so it doesn't take several exchanges between us before you finally get the point.

I (the doctor), took what information was given to me by the OP (the patient) and made a diagnosis (my first post, if you're wondering) based on that information. I still believe it is anxiety and that anxiety brings tensing of the muscles involved in performing a pool stroke. My diagnosis of a cure for this anxiety was to clear the mind and not to think about the last few times they jumped up. One of they ways suggested was to perform a counting exercise when under pressure to take their mind off of rising up during the shot. Its easy to say don't think about jumping up on this shot, but that's hard to do so I suggested a way to not think about it by keeping the mind occupied with trying to time their stroke to a counting rhythm.


You may choose to believe what I say is utter BS. That's ok. I'm sure many people on here think my posts are BS too. But because my advice wasn't in agreement with you isn't any reason to doubt my teaching abilities. You are old enough to surely understand people will have different teaching methods and outlooks on what works for certain problems players may have.
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A very nice and informative way on a "connect the dots" strategy, thanks for your info Pidge:).

Chrippa
 
Pidge,

I'm sorry if I missed it, but are you suggesting that the OP should do the counting thing ALL of the time or just on the pressure case ball?
 
Pidge said:
If a patient walked into the doctors office and was adamant they had broken their leg, would the doctor take their word and get straight to putting a cast on?

The answer is no, by the way. Just putting that out there so it doesn't take several exchanges between us before you finally get the point.

I (the doctor), took what information was given to me by the OP (the patient) and made a diagnosis (my first post, if you're wondering) based on that information. I still believe it is anxiety and that anxiety brings tensing of the muscles involved in performing a pool stroke. My diagnosis of a cure for this anxiety was to clear the mind and not to think about the last few times they jumped up. One of they ways suggested was to perform a counting exercise when under pressure to take their mind off of rising up during the shot. Its easy to say don't think about jumping up on this shot, but that's hard to do so I suggested a way to not think about it by keeping the mind occupied with trying to time their stroke to a counting rhythm.

You may choose to believe what I say is utter BS. That's ok. I'm sure many people on here think my posts are BS too. But because my advice wasn't in agreement with you isn't any reason to doubt my teaching abilities. You are old enough to surely understand people will have different teaching methods and outlooks on what works for certain problems players may have.
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No, I don't think your advice is utter BS regarding missing shots, but I do think you're being presumptuous regarding the op's post, just because you think you know better than he does. (If you suspect it might be something else, then ask him some questions.)

Second, I think that by not explaining to the op that you were answering something other than his question, you were misleading him and everyone into thinking that this was your recommendation for addressing the yips.

It was only after my Q&A with you where you finally made it clear that you were not addressing the yips at all.
 
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If the yips aren't caused by anxiety, tension, or fear then I don't I know what the yips are. I honestly do not understand the attack on Pidge. I felt his information was spot on and could be used in addition to what Fran originally said as a way to overcome the OP's problem.

When I started teaching golf, I thought it best to teach primarily fundamentals. But I learned fundamentals are only the first step of mastery. To climb to that next level, we all have to overcome the mental obstacles we have placed before ourselves which tie us to our current level of performance. The advice of both Fran and Pidge are excellent ways to get past those obstacles.

For me, overcoming these obstacles is the whole reason for competing. I don't get joy out of beating my opponent into submission. I get joy from beating my internal monsters into submission!

Best of luck to the OP!

Ken
 
FranCrimi said:
No, I don't think your advice is utter BS regarding missing shots, but I do think you're being presumptuous regarding the op's post, just because you think you know better than he does. (If you suspect it might be something else, then ask him some questions.)

Second, I think that by not explaining to the op that you were answering something other than his question, you were misleading him and everyone into thinking that this was your recommendation for addressing the yips.

It was only after my Q&A with you where you finally made it clear that you were not addressing the yips at all.
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I was addressing his question and I was addressing the yips. Only thing is I didn't mention the yips, I simply mentioned anxiety and tension...the main cause of the yips, jips, pips and nits. The OP asked for practice exercises on addressing the matter and I gave him one. For what ever reason you have chosen to single me out for the advice I gave. Perhaps you don't know the yips are caused by pressure, anxiety, tension and as Okie pointed out, fear. So I can only assume you thought I was making assumptions on what I thought was the issue when in fact I was addressing the issue the OP thought was the problem, I just used different wording for that issue but both had the same meaning.

Or it could be that you don't like anyone posting in this forum that doesn't state they are a 'certified instructor' in their sig. Or is it that you don't like posts that aren't in agreement with yours? You've had a pop at BilliardsAbout in this thread already for the advice he offered. He doesn't offer bad advice. I am not in total agreement with everything he says but when our opinions cross we discuss and put across our points. Its called a conversation, something people usually have mastered by the time they reach adulthood. But you choose to slam him and criticise his advice, much like you did with me because Fran "the certified be all end all of instructors" Crimi knows best.

I would like to end our interactions here. I have read enough of your posts and seen what you are like. And I've finally come to the conclusion that you aren't the person I expected you to be and not the kind of person I would like to be around. Once you learn to cut out all the bitterness to others who post in this forum whose ideas and opinions go against what you believe you will reap the benefits.

All the best :-)
 
I think your logic is sound here, Fran. I don't mean to sound presumptive or patronizing regarding APA 7s having solid fundamentals and etc. by the way, and I spoke to the player off line by PM about his situation before making my post.

But redact the situation backward--someone who jumps up on game balls will start jumping on other balls--probably--therefore I suggested the video. This problem not nipped in the bud will increase... and just because a player says he only jumps up on game balls doesn't mean he is endlessly running six and seven balls then jumping up only on shot #8. He might indeed be jumpy a little here and there and this problem has been exacerbated by game pressures--which is why I suggested some video from the player. My theory is just that until I see video, just as declaring his issues as psychological only may help him restore his league status while not perhaps helping him win the U.S. Open! Video would be a good idea here IMHO.
 
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Pidge said:
Just when the player feels pressure or anxious.
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I think I understand what you are trying to do with this type of suggestion & while it may work for some, I am not so sure that I would agree that it is the best approach.

If & if is a big word, it is done properly & the timing conforms & matches to one's normal stroke I can see how it might work okay.

The possible problem that I see is that it is making the physical execution of pocketing that case ball different than all of the other shots.

I think we all mostly are in agreement that the problem is not really anything physical but instead psychological in nature.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this method seems to be treating the symptom more than the cause & may actually contribute to the root cause

I want to 'treat' the real problem so that I, my body, is free from that bad psychological influence so that my body can function normally.

I don't mean to be critical & realise that I am perhaps nit picking.

I'm just offering some food for thought.

Best to ALL,
Rick

PS This is just my personal take & like Dennis Miller so often says, I could be wrong.
 
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