Keith Josey or Bob Frey - Sneaky Pete

[smokey]

to: subdude in reply

I knew this would stir some things up but I see what I see. All the Joseys I had seen in the past, I would have agreed with you all. But with the 2 cues I have seen made for this guy, I have done a complete 180. Another friend of mine has a 3500 Josey that is sweet. He has had it for a few years and it does play good. I will post the pics of the other cue and you can go from there.

I also want to clarify something. This has nothing to do with Frey having to use to work with Tim and Mike. I was given a choice of 2 cuemakers. I picked the other. I personally have never hit with a Frey but have seen them and they seem to be well made. If I was given the option to pick any cuemaker for a sneaky, I am not sure who I would pick. Although I hear his sneakies are awesome.(Frey) If my comments offend you, not my intention. Just making my observations public.

And I find the comment that I would knock another cuemaker to do it, I find offensive. Check out my threads or posts. I have never bashed or called a cuemaker out on some bad work. Even though I have seen some god awefully ugly cues(as everyone has). This person asked for advice and I gave it. That is all. I have no motivation to bash a cuemaker for the sake of doing it. I would be a real shit if that is what I did.

hi sub,

honestly speaking i felt you were 'maybe' biased. but i take you at your word. but note i was a little shocked at what you described, until i received your pix today, so i will try to explain it now (as best i can):


thanks for your pix! but to be honest I didn't imagine you were talking about the $240 short points josey which I have never seen anyone who had one, which are noted as being in "very limited supply" cues. to boot I think they may come with joint protectors as all of keith's other cues do, so lets say that means for comparison purposes a $230 cue. frey has a hoppe ring so that should compensate for the joint protectors so lets bring the frey for comparison purposes to $325.

now let's compare to frey's least expensive cues at $325

they both are in the ball park of $150 to $160 for a shaft so let's use the figure of $155 average for this comparison:

josey: cue @ $230 - shaft $155 = $75 for butt;
frey: cue @ $325 - shaft $155 = $170 for butt:

frey cost over josey = $95 for the butt.

to me that explains it all, and begs the sensibility to realize that for the price difference it is completely reflective of the cue you have in hand.

and to what i do know about josey's cues, and compared to frey's cues, comparing "apples to apples," you get more for your money with josey than frey

i hope this makes sense and you can understand my point.

by the way; you have a Great Avatar!

all the best,
smokey

 

[wolfgang]

Josey

Have never played with a Frey but like the way Josey Pete's play.

 

[subdude1974]

Bar room sneaky or not, the points should always be reasonably close. I am going to take my pics off as I just wanted to prove I was not lying. Said my .02 and I am good now. Just dont like being called a liar.

And as far as him being unhappy with the cue, he didnt say to me he was unhappy. I just made a point of what I saw. If it were my cue, and this was the 2nd attempt at it after returning the first, I would expect something a little better than that.

 

[skins]

Bar room sneaky or not, the points should always be reasonably close. I am going to take my pics off as I just wanted to prove I was not lying. Said my .02 and I am good now. Just dont like being called a liar.

And as far as him being unhappy with the cue, he didnt say to me he was unhappy. I just made a point of what I saw. If it were my cue, and this was the 2nd attempt at it after returning the first, I would expect something a little better than that.

and that's where your wrong.....do you make cues?....do you know what's involved in making the points on a full splice in your words " reasonably close "?.....i would guess you don't. sure some lower end blanks might turn out better from time to time but for the roughly $100 it cost for the entire butt, finished and all, you won't find ANYONE who will guarantee anything aesthetic for anywheres near that price nor scrap all their work on it if it doesn't come out " reasonably close " for that money either. talk to any other makers and see what they guarantee on a $100 butt.....

also to elaborate on the story of the first cue...Keith told me when he received cue back it was in such bad condition he knew it was probably not taken care of well maybe left out in a hot car, trunk or the like for some time to actually create some of the damage. he did see the crack and he replaced the butt and even repaired and cleaned up the shaft to like new which he said looked like it had been through a war all at no cost. he also says to this day he has not heard any bad comments from the customer and if there is any issues for them to contact him and he'll take care of them.

 

[acedotcom]

all i can tell you is a guy i play with recently had josey make him a sneaky. the first one came cracked and repaired with glue. he sent it back to josey, which he replaced. but the 2nd one, the points were nowhere near to being even. i would say the shortest point to the longest point there was a 2inch difference. it hits alright but looks like @@#$. i would go frey is i got 1 or the other.

When I first got it a friend of mine pointed out that the points on my Josey SP are nowhere near even. It bothered him more than it bothered me. I mean the reason I prefer SPs is because I'm not into fancy looking cues. I've let a few of the better players I know hit with it and they all agree it hits solid. That's more important to me. Overall, dealing with the Joseys was a pleasure.

 

[skins]

When I first got it a friend of mine pointed out that the points on my Josey SP are nowhere near even. It bothered him more than it bothered me. I mean the reason I prefer SPs is because I'm not into fancy looking cues. I've let a few of the better players I know hit with it and they all agree it hits solid. That's more important to me. Overall, dealing with the Joseys was a pleasure.

if you're the one subdude1974 is talking about then if you have any issues for ANY reason Keith said to call him. he wants nothing more than for you to be happy.

skins --------- likes being happy.........

 

[subdude1974]

...........................................

 

[acedotcom]

if you're the one subdude1974 is talking about then if you have any issues for ANY reason Keith said to call him. he wants nothing more than for you to be happy.

skins --------- likes being happy.........

No, I'm not the one subdude is talking about. I was just pointing out that his comment concerning uneven points could be true since the same is true about my stick. However, my stick arrived perfect in all other respects and I've been happy with it. I waited for it for four months (I've had it 6 or 7 months) and I wasn't about to send it back over what to me was unimportant. Of course, if you're telling me that the points were supposed to be even, then I'll have to reconsider the whole deal. Starting with the longest of the 4 points, the second longest is 1/8" shorter, the next is 5/16 shorter than the longest, and the shortest point is 11/16 shorter than the longest. I mean to me that's no big deal - but I'm a guy who started playing around 1960 with a house cue and never used equipment as an excuse. And, I have to reiterate that from my communication with them on the phone and via email, the Joseys were very pleasant people and I felt assured that they had my best interests at heart.

 

[skins]

I am not a cuemaker. I do,however know the process. Have had cues made for me and have owned probably 100 cues in the last 10 years. And to some people,250-300 on a cue is a lot of money. I think they would expect more out of it than this. And as far as guarantees...it really doesnt matter to me as I am not a "sneaky" fan. But if I was, I would expect the points to be fairly close. 1/2in fine. I can guarantee you this, I can go buy a $20 players sneaky and they would be closer than this one. Not saying Josey is the same as Players, cause that would be rediculous. Just making a point thqat to get the acceptably close isnt possible for a 250 cue is rediculous.

But I would like to burden you with a task. Show me a picture of ANY custom sneaky that has points as far off as this, and I will not say another word. Show me a Frey,Scruggs, Carmelli, McDaniel, Phillippi... anything. I dont care. PM me with it or just post it. I know I have NEVER seen anything like this before.

And as far as the original cue, it stayed indoors in the case except when it was in use. If it had dings in it, I dont know. I didnt examine it that close. But my whole point goes back to it CAME to him with a cracked butt and where the point meets the maple there was a gap going down the side of the point that had been filled in with glue. I know that noone I know would pay 250 for a brand new cue from someone like that.

If the guy is unhappy with it, I am sure he will contact Keith. As I know that Keith is a good guy due to a couple of conversations with both he and his wife, I know that he would make things right if the customer is unhappy. I did not ask him nor do I care if he is happy with it, just stated my opinion when one was asked.

And PS,
Those are nice looking Josey's in your avatar.

i could go round and round with posts here but instead here's a better solution.....i just talked to Keith and he said you or anyone else that wants the complete story about these cues or his methods are welcome to call him. let's just say you need to here it from the horses mouth......

Josey Custom Cues
1-800-514-2837

skins ----------- better to here for a horses mouth than.......

 

[subdude1974]

Skins,
I am not pursuing it any further. In my mind, Keith is still a great cuemaker. I have always liked his work. We just have a difference of opinion on this matter. I am not here to bash anyone. That is why I deleted the pics. The only reason I even posted the pics in the first place was I can tolerate being called alot of things, but a liar is not one of them. Again, all I did was give my opinion on something based on what I had seen. Anyway, best to you, Keith and the rest of the Joseys in the future.

Sub

 

[skins]

Skins,
I am not pursuing it any further. In my mind, Keith is still a great cuemaker. I have always liked his work. We just have a difference of opinion on this matter. I am not here to bash anyone. That is why I deleted the pics. The only reason I even posted the pics in the first place was I can tolerate being called alot of things, but a liar is not one of them. Again, all I did was give my opinion on something based on what I had seen. Anyway, best to you, Keith and the rest of the Joseys in the future.

Sub

i understand about your opinion but to give one based on what you see only without the entire story and all the facts involved is a bit reckless imo. there is a "story' behind all this and you should talk to him and i'm pretty sure there's a better than average chance your "opinion" will change. best to you as well......

skins ----------- likes stories.........

 

[smokey]

LIAR -subdude??? who called you a LIAR???

all i can tell you is a guy i play with recently had josey make him a sneaky. the first one came cracked and repaired with glue (don't believe you). he sent it back to josey, which he replaced. but the 2nd one, the points were nowhere near to being even. i would say the shortest point to the longest point there was a 2inch difference. it hits alright but looks like @@#$. i would go frey is i got 1 or the other.

hi subdude,

let's just do the numbers (some posts eliminated due to non committal to point); comparisons:

frey:
posts: 5, 7, 12: total: 3

josey:
posts: 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 13, 17, 18, 19,, 20: total 12

first of all, nothing against you, but somehow i just have a hard time to believe what you have stated, entirely.

secondly, the mathematical possibility that 80% of respondents are fools; have poor workmanship in cues including points with height differences of 2 inches, and worse received a cracked/repaired cue from josey is just incredulous.

re: observational preferential understanding for you imho: you have a mc cue, ties therefore with ts and therefore frey and ergo: you knock josey.

i will one day buy a frey. i think he makes a really nice cue.

i will before that day buy another josey. and i will tell you why. he just makes one of the best cues i have ever owned and still own - just a little too heavy for me - my error). his workmanship is amongst the best i have ever known and i have some really high dollar cues to compare with. and really beautiful to boot.

besides that he is a fine gentleman, and maybe this doesn't mean much to you, but he to my knowledge is a very religious man and who imho would never in anyway ever ever even consider shipping a substandard cue. i have a little knowledge also, that he has gone above and beyond to help others in this world.

i find your comments offensive to me. and i would guess to others like me, even just as local as those who answered here on this thread - and most of all to keith and sherri.

i'm just an upfront guy and wanted you to know. and of course, in this day and age lets see the pictures and if i am wrong i will be forced to change my mind. and an apology will follow.
smokey

I knew this would stir some things up but I see what I see. All the Joseys I had seen in the past, I would have agreed with you all. But with the 2 cues I have seen made for this guy, I have done a complete 180. Another friend of mine has a 3500 Josey that is sweet. He has had it for a few years and it does play good. I will post the pics of the other cue and you can go from there.

I also want to clarify something. This has nothing to do with Frey having to use to work with Tim and Mike. I was given a choice of 2 cuemakers. I picked the other. I personally have never hit with a Frey but have seen them and they seem to be well made. If I was given the option to pick any cuemaker for a sneaky, I am not sure who I would pick. Although I hear his sneakies are awesome.(Frey) If my comments offend you, not my intention. Just making my observations public.

And I find the comment that I would knock another cuemaker to do it, I find offensive (but you knocked another cue maker).[/COLOR] Check out my threads or posts. I have never bashed or called a cuemaker out on some bad work. Even though I have seen some god awefully ugly cues(as everyone has). This person asked for advice and I gave it. That is all. I have no motivation to bash a cuemaker for the sake of doing it. I would be a real shit if that is what I did.

hi sub,

honestly speaking i felt you were 'maybe' biased. but i take you at your word. but note i was a little shocked at what you described, until i received your pix today, so i will try to explain it now (as best i can):


thanks for your pix! but to be honest I didn't imagine you were talking about the $240 short points josey which I have never seen anyone who had one, which are noted as being in "very limited supply" cues. to boot I think they may come with joint protectors as all of keith's other cues do, so lets say that means for comparison purposes a $230 cue. frey has a hoppe ring so that should compensate for the joint protectors so lets bring the frey for comparison purposes to $325.

now let's compare to frey's least expensive cues at $325

they both are in the ball park of $150 to $160 for a shaft so let's use the figure of $155 average for this comparison:

josey: cue @ $230 - shaft $155 = $75 for butt;
frey: cue @ $325 - shaft $155 = $170 for butt:

frey cost over josey = $95 for the butt.

to me that explains it all, and begs the sensibility to realize that for the price difference it is completely reflective of the cue you have in hand.

and to what i do know about josey's cues, and compared to frey's cues, comparing "apples to apples," you get more for your money with josey than frey

i hope this makes sense and you can understand my point.

by the way; you have a Great Avatar!

all the best,
smokey

Bar room sneaky or not, the points should always be reasonably close. I am going to take my pics off as I just wanted to prove I was not lying. Said my .02 and I am good now. Just dont like being called a liar.

And as far as him being unhappy with the cue, he didnt say to me he was unhappy. I just made a point of what I saw. If it were my cue, and this was the 2nd attempt at it after returning the first, I would expect something a little better than that.

Skins,
I am not pursuing it any further. In my mind, Keith is still a great cuemaker. I have always liked his work. We just have a difference of opinion on this matter. I am not here to bash anyone. That is why I deleted the pics. The only reason I even posted the pics in the first place was I can tolerate being called alot of things, but a liar is not one of them. Again, all I did was give my opinion on something based on what I had seen. Anyway, best to you, Keith and the rest of the Joseys in the future.

Sub

FYI: when i was a kid, i made many foolish and uninformed statements. being young and a fool, i tried to "prove' how right i was, knowing all along i was not.

this reminds me of you, sorry.

and although nobody called you a liar, just using that word shows that you feel" YOU MUST DEFEND YOURSELF & PROVE YOU ARE NOT A LIAR:

Shakespere: "he who doth protest (defends) too much"!!

you made derogatory comments about a cuemakers ethics and honor who many here feel is a wonderful cuemaker and man.

only you!

and only i will say: in MY Opinion you will grow up one day.

hopefully...
smokey

 

[Jon P. Nusbaum]

Keith Josey or Bob Frey Sneaky Pete

This is in answer to "Smokey" Your price comparison is a little off. Bob's base price is with a Rambo Butt and Ivorx Ring, and Joint Collars that would add $80.00 to your chart.

Bob's cues are also cored out 9" in butt so cue is neutal balanced,this is an extra step adding to value and hit of his cues.

Bob also makes a lot fewer cues then Josey,so they're probably more Josey owners out there to comment.

I, as you know are biased to Bob Frey, as his Dealer, but the Josey cues I have seen are top notch. Both make very high quality cues, it just depends on the type of hit one likes. Use Bob's cues for a neutral hit, and a Josey for a forward hit, although Bob does make a forward hitting cue to your specification on request.

This is an excellant thread with constructive comments.

JP:smile:

 

[subdude1974]

FYI: when i was a kid, i made many foolish and uninformed statements. being young and a fool, i tried to "prove' how right i was, knowing all along i was not.

this reminds me of you, sorry.

and although nobody called you a liar, just using that word shows that you feel" YOU MUST DEFEND YOURSELF & PROVE YOU ARE NOT A LIAR:

Shakespere: "he who doth protest (defends) too much"!!

you made derogatory comments about a cuemakers ethics and honor who many here feel is a wonderful cuemaker and man.

only you!

and only i will say: in MY Opinion you will grow up one day.

hopefully...
smokey

What are you talking about??? I made no derogatory comments about his character, ethics or honor. I made a comment that he sent a cracked cue and a cue that in my mind was subpar, even for a basic sneaky. I didnt say he shipped it out knowing it was cracked and tried to get one over on someone. Someone asked for opinions about a sneaky pete. I gave my opinion, that is it.

I have said he is a great cuemaker that I like his work. I guess if my calling his work great is a derogatory comment, then I am sorry. And as far as you not calling me a liar, what does this sentence mean if not calling me a liar.
"first of all, nothing against you, but somehow i just have a hard time to believe what you have stated, entirely."
Last time I checked, if you tell someone you dont believe them, then you are stating your opinion of what I said is false(a lie).

Anyway, I will say it for the record, Keith Josey makes a great cue. Has made a lot of great cues in the past and I am sure he will continue to make great cues in the future. And I wish you all the very best. May your breaks be big and all your runs be long.

Sub

 

[smokey]

to: JP Nusbaum: my comments:

This is in answer to "Smokey" Your price comparison is a little off. Bob's base price is with a Rambo Butt and Ivorx Ring, and Joint Collars that would add $80.00 to your chart.

Bob's cues are also cored out 9" in butt so cue is neutal balanced,this is an extra step adding to value and hit of his cues.

Bob also makes a lot fewer cues then Josey,so they're probably more Josey owners out there to comment.

I, as you know are biased to Bob Frey, as his Dealer, but the Josey cues I have seen are top notch. Both make very high quality cues, it just depends on the type of hit one likes. Use Bob's cues for a neutral hit, and a Josey for a forward hit, although Bob does make a forward hitting cue to your specification on request.

This is an excellant thread with constructive comments.

JP:smile:

you sir are highly respected by me and many others as is bob frey. there is no question here by me or i think others.

i don't agree with your $80 info as keith's cue come with joint collars, and i added $10 for the hoppe ring, and i feel making a sp cored is sac religious as that is not what a sp is, or rather should be (imho). but please, i have nothing but good things to say about bob's cues. i was trying to be fair, but if i failed, i apologize. and for sure, i do not and did not try to imply anything against bob; i just think that keith's sp's are true sp's (not cored, weighted) and have exceptional wood that i believe that are better than bob offers for the same price.

that being said, i hereby order from you a frey in coco. 18.0 to 18.4. joint and large buttcap with ivory synthetic.

send me the payment info.

all the best,
smokey

 

[smokey]

please "DO NOT" pi*s me off:

What are you talking about??? I made no derogatory comments about his character, ethics or honor. I made a comment that he """"sent a cracked cue"""" and a cue that in my mind was subpar, even for a basic sneaky. I didnt say he shipped it out knowing it was cracked and tried to get one over on someone. Someone asked for opinions about a sneaky pete. I gave my opinion, that is it.

I have said he is a great cuemaker that I like his work. I guess if my calling his work great is a derogatory comment, then I am sorry. And as far as you not calling me a liar, what does this sentence mean if not calling me a liar.
"first of all, nothing against you, but somehow i just have a hard time to believe what you have stated, entirely."
Last time I checked, if you tell someone you dont believe them, then you are stating your opinion of what I said is false(a lie).

Anyway, I will say it for the record, Keith Josey makes a great cue. Has made a lot of great cues in the past and I am sure he will continue to make great cues in the future. And I wish you all the very best. May your breaks be big and all your runs be long.

Sub

do you thank that the above quote in red from you does not degrade somebodies honor??

further, i did NOT call you a liar as your quote in Blue above. i was just in disbelief or your comment. but did not in any way call you a liar, for sure not intended.

i have tried to communicate with you on a honorable basis. no challenge.

but you take it differently. no problem.

all the best anyway,
smokey

 

[subdude1974]

I have learned that the cue was a second. Something thrown together. Given this new information, I will say you will be happy with either a Frey or Josey. Both are excellent cues.

Sub

 

[CueMaster77]

this is interesting thread since BobFrey use to do Sneaky to TimScruggs... anyone can give us more insight.