Kicking:By feel or by system?

[recoveryjones]

When you kick do you kick by feel or by system? Some people kick excellent by feel as they have have that gift of visulization(or feel) and have put countless hours on the pool table.

As for me, my kicking game was a mess until I studied the systems explained on Dr. Cues DVD'S "foundation for Banking and Kicking" and various Grady Mathes kicking sytems on DVD'S such as "only Kicks".I also studied Deadaims "kicking Academy" Volumes 1-8(Excellent info) and learned some helpful stuff from Jim Loys site:
http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/kick.htm

Now I feel quite confident in a lot of kicking situations I'm confronted with.I know Nick Varner, Grady Mathews use sytems and I'm sure other pros do as well.

I've seen a lot of local A+ players miss kicks(simple 2 and 3 railers) by a foot using feel and they didn't seem to have a clue.Other feel kickers I've seen come inches a way from a hit, however,inches away isn't good enough for this game.Missing by a foot can be embarrasing while missing by 2 inches is more credible, however, both give the opponent ball in hand.

I think systems would benefit anyone and devoting 24 hours could turn any C+ or B player into a respectable kicker.Other elements of pool can take much,much longer to develop, however, with systems anyone can improve dramtically.

Having said all of this, I would bet that the majority of Pros kick by feel and I know the general pool population does for sure.If you have that gift and are hitting 90%, good for you. If you don't visulize well, why not try out some systems.
RJ

 

[SirBanksALot]

Kicking....

Great question. Everyone learns differently and we each have different attributes we bring to every endeavor. Pool, like golf and bowling, is a sport that has successful players that would categorize theirselves as "mechanical players", or "visual players " or "feel players" etc etc etc. I would bet big $$$ that the great kickers, bankers and even 3 cushion players know some systems but, in the end, rely on feel, instinct and visual attributes to make things happen.

 

[Colin Colenso]

When you kick do you kick by feel or by system? RJ

Kicking systems can be highly accurate on certain shots, and I would recommend any wanabe pro to do a lot of homework on the systems.

They are not only useful for kicking out of hooks, but for multi rail banking and maybe most importantly playing position off the rails for position, so that one can predict clearly the line the cue ball will take with various approach angles and spin.

I'm currently tabulating a comprehensive database on angles with various degrees of english from all possible diamond positions.

I'm hoping to categorize these into various types and create many charts, and hopefully formularize as many aspects as possible.

Here is an example of the data I am collecting for maximum right english from diamond position 3.

Colin

 

[Nico]

Learn the systems at first, so you have a fundamental understanding of what gets you where. After you have more or less figured things out, you'll go by instinct and feel. Systems are great, but under match pressure, sometimes a player can "do something by the book" when their instinct is telling them something different. The key is to be flexible, have an understanding of kick systems, (whether it be basic or advanced), and know that sometimes the sytem won't work for every shot..... you may need to use instinct to make slight adjustments.

 

[TheConArtist]

Kicking systems can be highly accurate on certain shots, and I would recommend any wanabe pro to do a lot of homework on the systems.

They are not only useful for kicking out of hooks, but for multi rail banking and maybe most importantly playing position off the rails for position, so that one can predict clearly the line the cue ball will take with various approach angles and spin.

I'm currently tabulating a comprehensive database on angles with various degrees of english from all possible diamond positions.

I'm hoping to categorize these into various types and create many charts, and hopefully formularize as many aspects as possible.

Here is an example of the data I am collecting for maximum right english from diamond position 3.

Colin

Colin is this using BHE or PE? Nyce chart, i never really thought about doing this, all i do is aim for a diamond or right in between the diamonds for kicks.

 

[recoveryjones]

Kicking systems can be highly accurate on certain shots, and I would recommend any wanabe pro to do a lot of homework on the systems.

They are not only useful for kicking out of hooks, but for multi rail banking and maybe most importantly playing position off the rails for position, so that one can predict clearly the line the cue ball will take with various approach angles and spin.

I'm currently tabulating a comprehensive database on angles with various degrees of english from all possible diamond positions.

I'm hoping to categorize these into various types and create many charts, and hopefully formularize as many aspects as possible.

Here is an example of the data I am collecting for maximum right english from diamond position 3.

Colin

LOL

And here I thought I was the only extremist.I once color coded(like your diagram) Three rail kicks to the corner and short and long of the corner to various diamonds from every diamond on the long rail. I would uses various speeds and spins to discover what range was possible from every starting point.

At my pool room (home practice table) I was a (3 rail) kicking machine amazing friends with my kicking ability.Problem with this way of doing things is that you have to re-vist your charts or practice them on the table reguliarly or what was memorized will diminish.Also when the heat is on, sometimes the mind is paralysed and what you've memorized is forgotten.Those colored lines as educational as they are don't apply at the next pool hall as rails are either shorter or longer and different humidity factors come into play.Overall, however, it is profitable if one is willing to put in the time and effort and (table to table) adjustments can me made.

RJ

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin is this using BHE or PE? Nyce chart, i never really thought about doing this, all i do is aim for a diamond or right in between the diamonds for kicks.

It does not matter here if you use BHE or PE to line up for this chart. Just so long as you send the CB aong the lines drawn to test the chart and hit near to the edge of the CB. A bit over 2 tips english.

I like this method of using maximum english. It provides quite consistant results.

The other methods I'm charting are 1-tip running english and center topspin.

Using check-english (hold-up) systems seems to produce a lot more variations on most shots according to the speed and top / bottom applied and also varies a lot more on different tables.

 

[JLW]

I've done something similar to what Colin has done. I keep a notebook diagramming various one, two and three rail kick shots. And what I"ve noticed is that I've gone from completely clueless on some kicks to either making them or missing by just a few inches.

My experience has been that the more you study these shots, the more you start to understand the geometry of the game. For example, think about the one rail kick shot from one corner to the other. What you will notice is that for every diamond you move the cb along the rail toward the opposite corner pocket, your aiming point moves 1/2 diamond in the same direction. Diagramming these type of shots really helps you to see this sort of pattern and to understand that you're always aiming at the middle (midway point between the cb and intended pocket) of the table.

Now unlike Colin, I try to shoot with as little english as possible. To me, that's too much of a variable. I try to keep things as simple as I can and just aim (as someone else mentioned) at diamonds or between diamonds using center ball.

 

[Colin Colenso]

LOL

And here I thought I was the only extremist.I once color coded(like your diagram) Three rail kicks to the corner and short and long of the corner to various diamonds from every diamond on the long rail. I would uses various speeds and spins to discover what range was possible from every starting point.

At my pool room (home practice table) I was a (3 rail) kicking machine amazing friends with my kicking ability.Problem with this way of doing things is that you have to re-vist your charts or practice them on the table reguliarly or what was memorized will diminish.Also when the heat is on, sometimes the mind is paralysed and what you've memorized is forgotten.Those colored lines as educational as they are don't apply at the next pool hall as rails are either shorter or longer and different humidity factors come into play.Overall, however, it is profitable if one is willing to put in the time and effort and (table to table) adjustments can me made.

RJ

As you suggest, all the raw data is too much to memorize for match play.

I'm hoping to be able to categorize the data into maybe 6 to 12 fairly broad shot groups and formularize them with some basic rules for adjustments for speed, longer-shorter tables etc.

I imagine, even if I do this, it will still be too much for most people to remember, but hopefully I'll be able to remember them and be able to test a new table pretty quickly and do the calculations for the various shots in my head during a match. It will take a lot of work, but hey, people study math for 15 years before they get a degree.

I hope to put together a range of formulas and adjustments that could be learned with a few week's study and practice and enforced / refined with regular use.

It really should be possible to play 2 or 3 rails to hit a full target OB close to 100%, as you saw on some shots you had memorized.

btw: I found some of the Kicking Academy systems (find all articles here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=346433 ) to be a little hard to decifer, but very much appreciate that Deadaim took the time to share his knowledge with us

 

[vagabond]

When you kick do you kick by feel or by system?

Having said all of this, I would bet that the majority of Pros kick by feel and I know the general pool population does for sure.
RJ

`Feel `also uses knowledge of `system`.I may not be able to kick like a Donkey but I am a good kicker. I use `feel` and I do not need more than 2-3 seconds to get that feel.

 

[sjm]

Learning the systems is part of your basic pool education, but Ihat , once you've learned them, systems are for double checking your own instincts and for lining up that rare kick that has you confused.

I think people who kick by system only become far too inclined to use the speed on which their systems are based, which means they have far fewer options than the insitnctive kicker that has the systems to fall back on.

The catch is that you must learn the systems to become a solid kicker, but you must then be smart enough to let go to reach the next level as a kicker.

 

[renard]

I actually use both. I use the systems to give me the line I should be on. Then I run a visual image in my head of what the shot will will look like start to finish. I then get in to my stance and make the minor adjustments that feel right for the shot, then shoot it.

More times than not my gut feeling of making that slight adjustment pays off.

 

[erikido]

Learn the systems at first, so you have a fundamental understanding of what gets you where. After you have more or less figured things out, you'll go by instinct and feel. Systems are great, but under match pressure, sometimes a player can "do something by the book" when their instinct is telling them something different. The key is to be flexible, have an understanding of kick systems, (whether it be basic or advanced), and know that sometimes the sytem won't work for every shot..... you may need to use instinct to make slight adjustments.

Quoted for truth....When I first started getting serious I learned a kicking system. Now I almost never use any system for kicking. People are amazed at some of the hits/makes that I can get. Last time I missed one some guy tried showing me a system,which I already knew (But, it wouldn't work anyways because I had to put draw on it and what is the point of the system if u are going to have to adjust it anyways.)

In practice now every once in a while I just throw out a couple balls on the table. Freeze the cue ball to one of them and try and hit the ball as many different ways as possible.

 

[erikido]

Learning the systems is part of your basic pool education, but Ihat , once you've learned them, systems are for double checking your own instincts and for lining up that rare kick that has you confused.

I think people who kick by system only become far too inclined to use the speed on which their systems are based, which means they have far fewer options than the insitnctive kicker that has the systems to fall back on.

The catch is that you must learn the systems to become a solid kicker, but you must then be smart enough to let go to reach the next level as a kicker.

Excellent post...Speed, stroke and english need to be adjusted for. A lot of times when someone asks me how to hit a ball(generally a novice asking me. But, a lot of times I have much better players overall ask) I tell them and they miss because of the differences in our strokes and they don't get speed or correct amount of english. I try telling them the speed and what english. But, that is hard for a lot of people to grasp, especially if you haven't played a lot. Sorry rant ended. I love kick shots by the way if u haven't noticed