Kicking method discussion

klockdoc

klockdoc

ughhhhhhhhhh
Silver Member
For discussion to discover your thoughts.

How many times have you kicked at a ball, whether one rail, or two or more rails and have missed the WHOLE BALL?

I have read that a way to lessen your "fear" of missing the ball, think of it as a channel traveling towards the ball. This channel is 3 balls or 6 3/4 inches wide. (IMO actually a little less because of the hit required to strike the OB). The OB, plus an imaginary ball to the left and to the right of the OB. Anywhere within this channel will give you a hit on the OB.

Pros have the ability to kick and strike the OB exactly at an angle relevant to the direction they want the OB to go. I'm just lucky to hit the ball most of the time..:D :D

But, why do even some good players miss the whole ball when in reality a 3 ball wide channel is available when kicking (if the ball is in the middle of the table).

Not to get into effects of the use of different english, lets just consider a kick using a hit on the CB slightly above center ball.

What methods do you use to insure contact more than missing the ball?

After locating your aim point, do you aim at a spot on the nose cushion, or, a spot on the rail in line with the diamond inlays?
 
Being a really defensive player, I get the same defensive play right back at me.

I've kinda read about the diamond system, but I don't always go by it. I usually just go by feel, and fly by the seat of my pants.

So far, I've done pretty good. Probably 80% or more success rate of making a legal hit.
 
i try to shoot the kick and bit short with center cue ball because it might rebound off a different rail and make a hit if i miss completely. but more often, i try to aim to a specific side to get a legal hit, which is usually the cause of my misses
 
this imo is harder than running out. not just hitting the ball but controlling where it goes and playing return safeties outof kicks.

I dont aim for a spot on the rail much but i aim along a path most of the time.
 
Excellent thread subject. As you know, there are numerous geometrically derived licking systems. I have studied most of them...at least the 1 and 2 rail systems...I don't mess with 3 rails since I am a 9 Ball guy and they don't come up often enough to bother practicing.

But as all authors re: such systems mention, tables play so differently and cueing issues such as english and speed so profoundly affect the outcome of the shot...at the end of the day, most top players (that I know of) EVENTUALLY, after TONS of practice, become able to just SEE the correct angles.

I am a WAY above average 1 and 2 rail kicker and certainly regarding 1 rail kicks, I just SEE the angle and will hit the OB...even on rather long kicks, 90% of the time (95% on shorter distances).

On two rail kicks, I do use a "stick aiming" system but one that was given to me in confidence by a top ranked pro so I won't describe it here. But nevertheless, I can still pretty much SEE the route that the CB will take off the first and second rails and just use the system to confirm my rail aiming point.

Bottom line, LOTS and LOTS of practice and trial and error is required, IMHO, to be able to kick "by feel." Ditto for banking which is a variation on the same theme.

Regards,
Jim
 
I would say that the diamond system and basic geometry can help with not only the aiming aspect but the level of confidence with which you shoot these kick and bank shots. However, you must be able to judge the speed of the table, the rails, and the English needed (if any) as these factors play an important aspect as well. To be honest, I practice a lot of bank shots and multi-cushion kicks. This in turn creates a high probability of a clean hit but also increases the likelihood that I get the result for which I am shooting. It is very important to know where the cueball will end up after making contact. This in my opinion is just as important as making contact with the object ball.
 
klockdoc said:
For discussion to discover your thoughts.

How many times have you kicked at a ball, whether one rail, or two or more rails and have missed the WHOLE BALL?

I have read that a way to lessen your "fear" of missing the ball, think of it as a channel traveling towards the ball. This channel is 3 balls or 6 3/4 inches wide. (IMO actually a little less because of the hit required to strike the OB). The OB, plus an imaginary ball to the left and to the right of the OB. Anywhere within this channel will give you a hit on the OB.

Pros have the ability to kick and strike the OB exactly at an angle relevant to the direction they want the OB to go. I'm just lucky to hit the ball most of the time..:D :D

But, why do even some good players miss the whole ball when in reality a 3 ball wide channel is available when kicking (if the ball is in the middle of the table).

Not to get into effects of the use of different english, lets just consider a kick using a hit on the CB slightly above center ball.

What methods do you use to insure contact more than missing the ball?

After locating your aim point, do you aim at a spot on the nose cushion, or, a spot on the rail in line with the diamond inlays?
Click to expand...



I am to the level that I can hit a "side" of a ball... I can usually get it going in the right direction, but not good enough to pocket the ball on purpose....(obvously some kicks my odds go up to pocket the ball)

It seems much easier on steeper angles and or shorter angles...If the 1 rail angle is a long shallow angle...I may look for a two rail path first.

Sometimes two rail kicks (and sometimes 3 rails) are actually easier...(more room for error)...than a 1 rail kick

The reasons for missing the ball on a bank (for me) is usually the action off of the rail...some tables bank short, or I could have applied some unwanted spin. that skewed that natural angle.

Unfortunatley....The easiest kick to contact the ball isnt always the best option... ;)
 
I just "pick a spot on the wall" for nearly every kick, except for short two railers. Super effective. Thanks Ronnie V!!!!!!!!!!!
 
av84fun said:
Excellent thread subject. ...I don't mess with 3 rails since I am a 9 Ball guy and they don't come up often enough to bother practicing.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, Thanks for your response. Question: 9Ball - If you have a ball in front of the corner pocket, not "in the pocket", do you feel more comfortable playing to hit the ball two rails, one rail (trying to make it), or, would you try to come in behind the ball and take it out, 3 rails?

Bigger ball by trapping the ball instead of trying to make it. IMO

CueTable Help

 
I got this set of E-Books a couple years back.

On the cover page it says

Hotshot series
Book _ of total 'six pack' billiards Library"
Then it says D.W. 'Diamond Dave' Thayer so I guess that's the author.

I haven't read them all, but here are what they cover:

Book 1 - Basics plus sighting
Book 2 - Kick shots plus diamond numbering system
Book 3 - English plus stop, draw, follow, carom, billiard, curve, jump & masse shots
Book 4 - Bank shots, one & multiple rails, plus track systems
Book 5 - frozen rail shots, dead shots, little know exceptional shots & position play
Book 6 - Break shots, combinations, 8-ball, strategics, practice drills, different size tables, trick shots, rules of play, & glossary

Has anyone else seen these books?
 
klockdoc said:
Jim, Thanks for your response. Question: 9Ball - If you have a ball in front of the corner pocket, not "in the pocket", do you feel more comfortable playing to hit the ball two rails, one rail (trying to make it), or, would you try to come in behind the ball and take it out, 3 rails?

Bigger ball by trapping the ball instead of trying to make it. IMO
Click to expand...

For Clarity, are these the 3 options you are inquiring about?

CueTable Help



In response to your OP I use different methods for different kicks.

1 rail kicks....

CueTable Help

 
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klockdoc said:
Jim, Thanks for your response. Question: 9Ball - If you have a ball in front of the corner pocket, not "in the pocket", do you feel more comfortable playing to hit the ball two rails, one rail (trying to make it), or, would you try to come in behind the ball and take it out, 3 rails?

Bigger ball by trapping the ball instead of trying to make it. IMO

CueTable Help

Click to expand...


This (IMO) is a perfect example of a 2-3 rail kick being easier...I know that if I kick in between the 9 & 5 to the end rail (and maybey the side rail)...I am going to contact the 1-ball....and there are many paths the CB can take to "get lucky"

This is exactly how some people "get all the rolls"

If you try to kick into the 1 (1-rail or 2 side rails) you have seemingly much more opportunity to scratch or sell out).

again IMO....

I "get lucky" on these kicks all the time....:D


The key to kicks like...and I am not sure why...is to hit it "smooth"...now matter how much pace you want to put on the CB...Hit it "smooth" and you get better results.
 
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BRKNRUN said:
This (IMO) is a perfect example of a 2-3 rail kick being easier...I know that if I kick in between the 9 & 5 to the end rail (and maybey the side rail)...I am going to contact the 1-ball....and there are many paths the CB can take to "get lucky"
Click to expand...

CueTable Help



This is the shot that I was talking about whereas you "trap" the ball. Coming in behind the ball and knocking it out of the area, versus, coming into the ball.

All these diagrams are nice and I think most people know how to get to the ball by going 1, 2 or 3 rails, but, what I am inquiring is;

What do you feel is the reason that most people miss a OB when there is a 6 3/4 inch channel available in order to hit the ball? Is it just error in their judgement? Stroke problems? etc?
 
klockdoc said:
This is the shot that I was talking about whereas you "trap" the ball. Coming in behind the ball and knocking it out of the area, versus, coming into the ball.

All these diagrams are nice and I think most people know how to get to the ball by going 1, 2 or 3 rails, but, what I am inquiring is;

What do you feel is the reason that most people miss a OB when there is a 6 3/4 inch channel available in order to hit the ball? Is it just error in their judgement? Stroke problems? etc?
Click to expand...


I think it is a combination of things....One is selection of path. The 3-rail example has a huge margin of error....The example below has less room for error.

On the example below...(table view#2 of 3)..it would be real easy to accidentally apply some unwanted spin that would affect the shot on the second rail, or perhaps you could pick up some unwanted spin that was not accounted for that killed the angle on the second rail.

The error in judgment is possible if you are relying totally on feel to see a kick like that...your judgement could just be off that day...

It could be a stroke problem if you are getting unwanted english...That would be easy to check by shooting the CB straight into a rail and see if it comes straght back or if it angles...

Rails make a difference as well since some rails seem to pinch the ball and shorten the angle...

That is one thing I have (and others) have noticed about the Diamond Bar Tables used in Vegas...They seem to bank a bit '"short" even on 1-rail kicks...

I feel like a kick shot (and making a ball) is almost like "chipping in" in golf...It takes some skill to hit the ball close to the pocket...the ball going in has a degree of luck...Depending on the layout...some "chip ins" are much more makable than others......(A long three rail through traffic to a OB that is not close to a rail or pocket is a-kin to a flop shot in Golf going in the hole)


CueTable Help

 
Method.. I guess I try to imagine a line going from the cueball to the rail and then kinda go from there just going by 45 degree angles, adjusting mentally if my initial line would not contact the ball. The issue with many kicks is that the systems have a hard time with imperfection, which even the pros have. You may "know" you have to hit there, but what if you need a bit of english or more speed? You need experience for that to know how to adjust the aim to the rail since english and speed would affect the angle.
 
I still say that Jim Rydell has the best discussion on kicking systems I have ever read. His website for his book is pjbilliards.com He has a correction for 1-rail geometric kicking systems that really improves the accuracey of 1-rail kicks. I've watched him play and he seems to make an unusual number of his kicks. I don't mean just hitting the ball, but making it.
 
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