Knowing What We Don't Know

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
In this post about Stick Aiming (in the "Basic Aiming Methods Illustrated" thread) I proposed the following idea:

Systems can be used with varying degrees of awareness of how they function:
- "consciously", with real time awareness of estimations and adjustments being made
- "subconsciously", with abstract understanding that estimations and adjustments are made
- "unconsciously", with no awareness that estimations and adjustments are made (believing the method is "exact" for all shots)


I wonder if you think this is true and if so to what systems or kinds of systems it applies. I think it applies to most (maybe all) aiming systems.

I don't think one way is better than another for everybody.

pj
chgo
 
In this post about Stick Aiming (in the "Basic Aiming Methods Illustrated" thread) I proposed the following idea:

Systems can be used with varying degrees of awareness of how they function:
- "consciously", with real time awareness of estimations and adjustments being made
- "subconsciously", with abstract understanding that estimations and adjustments are made
- "unconsciously", with no awareness that estimations and adjustments are made (believing the method is "exact" for all shots)


I wonder if you think this is true and if so to what systems or kinds of systems it applies. I think it applies to most (maybe all) aiming systems.

I don't think one way is better than another for everybody.

pj
chgo


Here is what I believe after many years of playing and traveling and learning from some of the best.

I think that once you have obtained a certain amount of proficiency the subconscious will perform exactly what you picture in your head. I also believe the pros use whatever system they TRUST to work. The more you TRUST your system & your ability to execute your system the easier it is to picture yourself making the ball/getting position and getting that picture in your head is the most important factor of all.
 
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To answer your question though PJ, I do believe that all of the systems contain conscious and subconscious/unconscious elements.
 
I think they all start out very conscious, until the player gets used to it...then little by little the calculations/adjustments get more subconscious, until you're not really concentrating on it at all much. I also believe most systems "morph" a little for each player...he does something a little different that makes the system his own. That's why when someone tries to describe a system on here, they get so many posts telling them that they've got such and such wrong, etc.
 
In this post about Stick Aiming (in the "Basic Aiming Methods Illustrated" thread) I proposed the following idea:

Systems can be used with varying degrees of awareness of how they function:
- "consciously", with real time awareness of estimations and adjustments being made
- "subconsciously", with abstract understanding that estimations and adjustments are made
- "unconsciously", with no awareness that estimations and adjustments are made (believing the method is "exact" for all shots)


I wonder if you think this is true and if so to what systems or kinds of systems it applies. I think it applies to most (maybe all) aiming systems.

I don't think one way is better than another for everybody.

pj
chgo

Anything can be used with varying degrees of awareness of how it functions.

In fact GB relies heavily on making very conscious adjustments from the actual GB line to the adjusted-for-throw GB line. Naturally as the player gains experience through practice and competition they learn what conditions produce what amount of throw and adjust automatically.

But I don't believe that most people figure this out on their own. They are instructed as to what throw is and how to compensate for it.

Then they consciously train themselves to make those adjustments until such a time as they don't need to think about it any longer. But they quite deliberately went through a time where they did make those choices in a trial and error fashion.

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Using CTE however the variable not estimating the position of the ghostball but instead learning where to stand in relation to the CTE line. And this is not a matter of consciously choosing to stand say .5" inch to the right on this shot and 1" on that shot. No it is learning to find the right spot for a single shot and once found that same spot works for all other shots. That is the conscious part.

Other than using laser lines and precise measurements I can't see how this debate will ever end.

You cannot and will not understand that some of us have undertook to attempt to figure out the exact mechanics of the method. When we present our findings you never ever ever ever ever discuss them. Instead you revert back to your standard line which is, "you don't understand what you are doing and how you are adjusting."

You completely and totally discount the efforts we make to consciously pay attention to the steps and the body position when we are using the CTE system.

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The only totally unconscious aiming is the person who has zero knoweldge of Ghost Ball or any aiming method, someone who doesn't even know what a contact point is who simply points and shoots. You can find these people in every bar and every pool room. Some of them manage to become halfway decent players.

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Otherwise, all aiming is a conscious effort until it becomes ingrained and is done automatically. Even if the automatic choice is often wrong. Which is what then leads to "body english" to make the ball.

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Your definition of unconsciously is not correct. The person who uses any aiming system which is any method with steps to follow is quite conscious of what is going on. They know when they are in the learning phase what types of adjustments they are making and why. Only you don't happen to agree with their own observations and stated experiences in the case of CTE and perhaps with other methods as well.
 
In this post about Stick Aiming (in the "Basic Aiming Methods Illustrated" thread) I proposed the following idea:

Systems can be used with varying degrees of awareness of how they function:
- "consciously", with real time awareness of estimations and adjustments being made
- "subconsciously", with abstract understanding that estimations and adjustments are made
- "unconsciously", with no awareness that estimations and adjustments are made (believing the method is "exact" for all shots)


I wonder if you think this is true and if so to what systems or kinds of systems it applies. I think it applies to most (maybe all) aiming systems.

I don't think one way is better than another for everybody.

pj
chgo
I think in the end, the mental picture of the two balls colliding takes over all systems. By seeing that picture, you'd know where the object ball and cue ball are going after collision.
As The Monk said, Be One with the shot. The picture of the two balls colliding, where they go and at what speed is the picture you need to see to be one with the shot.
 
I think in the end, the mental picture of the two balls colliding takes over all systems.
I agree - although I think everybody has their own way of thinking of the mental picture they see. Some see balls colliding, others see overlapping discs, etc., etc. The point is we all recall (consciously, subconsciously or unconsciously) a "shot picture" that fits the cut angle at hand.

pj
chgo
 
My day job is financial trading (stocks, options and futures). Of course, it's a very mathematical business... and trading "systems" abound. It's eery how similar they are to aiming systems.

A trading system that works for one trader doesn't always work for another. They simply see the world -- and process information -- in different ways.

As a poster said earlier, it all comes down to confidence. If XYZ is how you see the world, then ABC system will work for you because you it makes sense to you and you'll have confidence in it. But it probably won't work for the guy sitting next to you because he sees the world in a different way.

Arguing about why a trading system works -- or doesn't work -- is pointless. It's like arguing that blue is a better color than red.
 
I think in the end, the mental picture of the two balls colliding takes over all systems. By seeing that picture, you'd know where the object ball and cue ball are going after collision.
As The Monk said, Be One with the shot. The picture of the two balls colliding, where they go and at what speed is the picture you need to see to be one with the shot.

Here are a couple of pics that helps illustrate this point. I was practicing 14.1 and during this inning the focus was on safeties. I ended up putting myself in this safe.

There is no pocket to go for. You have to hit a rail with a ball, and not leave a shot with limited area for CB movement.

This is also a good example of a feel shot. I bet those that just play 9 or 10 ball have never been in this type of safe.

Shots are not always about making a ball, but putting the balls where you need as in 14.1.
 
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Here are a couple of pics that helps illustrate this point. I was practicing 14.1 and during this inning the focus was on safeties. I ended up putting myself in this safe.

There is no pocket to go for. You have to hit a rail with a ball, and not leave a shot with limited area for CB movement.

This is also a good example of a feel shot. I bet those that just play 9 or 10 ball have never been in this type of safe.
Shots are not always about making a ball, but putting the balls where you need as in 14.1.

Didnt realize the balls could be put in such a situation.:rolleyes:
Must be a ghostball safety.
 
Knowing What we dont.....

In this post about Stick Aiming (in the "Basic Aiming Methods Illustrated" thread) I proposed the following idea:

Systems can be used with varying degrees of awareness of how they function:
- "consciously", with real time awareness of estimations and adjustments being made
- "subconsciously", with abstract understanding that estimations and adjustments are made
- "unconsciously", with no awareness that estimations and adjustments are made (believing the method is "exact" for all shots)


I wonder if you think this is true and if so to what systems or kinds of systems it applies. I think it applies to most (maybe all) aiming systems.

I don't think one way is better than another for everybody.

pj
chgo

I have read only a few comments in the thread, but when I came back to pool in 2005 I sort of made knowing how to lock in with a real reason....what people could do but could not really explain to me.

Mostly this is found in the aiming scenario. I have tried a bunch of things concerning aim. I have not gone through a great deal of the aiming methods that are currently out there because I wanted my impressions to be from the area of how a new player with no idea would approach such a subject and not from a prejudiced opinion. So I became inventive just as every new player to the sport would have to and I tried many things for many hours to find the one thing that seemed to work for me and I found it.

Even after I found my Golden Cup that helps me aim. How you feel on any given day affects it because we are playing a game whose tolerances can be measured in thousands of an inch. What we see and know as right is wonderful but our abillity to get the cue ball there is what counts.

I cannot imagine that a CTE practicioner has it any better. Im sure he is going to have days he is off as well.

I have days I string racks together and seem to reside permanently at the head of the table. Then there are those days I just dont perform as well and its not the aiming system. Its the entire system, Im tired, I didnt get enough rest, etc, etc.

When it comes to cte, pro1 and all of the products like it, Im good because I know what is working for me and one of these days I will share a few other things about what Ive discovered....but dont be looking for complicated.....

Im convinced life is much simpler than we sometimes make it and Im reminded of this very much when it comes to aiming the ball.

So you wont find me being a proponnent of cte from the user side....but...I very much note that the people who do use it are happy with what they have when they are vocal.....there are a few who just say....too complicated for me.

We can wax and wane about the laws of physics and the effects and what the balls are really doing but none of that matters if a guy with a 10th grade education can put them all in the hole before you do.

So pool is a funny game and it seems to favor equally sometimes someone who "hamb* vs someone who really studies what he is doing trying to play smart.

So when the end result is.....how we feel, is how we play even though we know how to hit the ball.....its a little frustrating. Blending aiming, english and stroke can surely be a slippery slope full of chances to fall short on many accounts.

So what are we arguing about? The problem with pool in general is not how to aim the ball. Its more along the lines of we need new players to come into the sport.

Although I would like for someone to see the validity of my end of the Natural way to do things argument.


The subject here was..... Knowing What We Dont......

There is complicated.....requring whatever complication we devise......divining rods....linear shots from the position of the sun and its reflection in the balls....or

there is simply a reference method.....something that allows you to understand the angle of the shot.....from your own reasonable ability to reason this out, that becomes repeatable because its the same every time on every shot. It can be something of your own devising but it needs to be something standard in your game.

CJ Wiley and several others have stated something to the effect that all shots are pretty much the same...I have to agree....they are ....once you understand the aiming line......more so I have found if you understand the balls path to the pocket...

Imho I think cte practicioners will eventually understand the path to the pocket but might be at a tad of a disadvantage if what I understand about it to be true and that it plays either to the center of the pocket or to the farther side and caution is suggested using something such as TOI by the Stan the creator of Pro1 but I do understand that an adjustment could be made by someone who wanted to play TOI as they better understand their system.

To all of this I see the player who understands what he does naturally coming out on top considering the length of what I think the learning curve would be. Only if someone were to better explain how to obtain the skill of aiming from a natural standpoint because it can take awhile for a Natural Feel Player to get it the way many of us have gotten it....here is where the Pro1 players might have an advantage for awhile....because they get the ball pocketing piece perhaps a bit sooner....but the race isnt quite over.....the Natural aiming method player is still practicing and he will catch up.

The question I think that is more important is who can get to a higher level of play near the end of the race?

But what does it matter? What matters is the creation or retention of new players to the sport. If cte is a way to keep new players......more power to the guys who use it.

I just like my aiming flavor to be a little different because I have put in some time and hit a million balls finding the Holey Grail and its not so complicated but imho hasnt been accurately put to words. Probably if it were, it wouldnt be well recieved by this audience, testosterone and opinions we have solidified by comment, tends to get in the way.


Seek and Ye shall find....knock and it shall be opened unto you.....the player that wants it will find it....if he is convinced he has found it...he is good.

So how do we know what we dont?........ a reference method.....that is what cte is.....its a protocol...maybe the visual comes last.....the protocol first....thats how I understand it. I like my visual system gets me down in position and I just make the ball, when I feel good I make a lot of them, I run out a lot, Im happy. I accept the days I dont feel great, age has a way of allowing you to accept that.

Aiming is just one piece of the puzzle....there are many.

So why cant we just sing "Kum by Yah" and hug? lol

Im not a bca pbia certified instructor and this is just my 2 cents worth.....
 
11 is a dead cross side bank.

That doesn't have to be "dead." As Danny DiLiberto would say, that's a "sell-out your wallet" shot. Definitely a flyer / white-flag shot, even for a strong banker (who, btw, many that often play 14.1 may not play banks that often). If you miss that shot, the consequences can be grave against a decent 14.1 opponent.

But of course, as is the case in an Aiming forum, everyone here "never misses a shot, and the thought of which should never have to enter into your mind."

Duckie is wackier than the Aflac duck. But he does have a point with seeing beyond mere shots, and into the safety realm.

-Sean
 
My day job is financial trading (stocks, options and futures). Of course, it's a very mathematical business... and trading "systems" abound. It's eery how similar they are to aiming systems.

A trading system that works for one trader doesn't always work for another. They simply see the world -- and process information -- in different ways.

As a poster said earlier, it all comes down to confidence. If XYZ is how you see the world, then ABC system will work for you because you it makes sense to you and you'll have confidence in it. But it probably won't work for the guy sitting next to you because he sees the world in a different way.

Arguing about why a trading system works -- or doesn't work -- is pointless. It's like arguing that blue is a better color than red.

I 100% agree. Arguing about aiming systems is equally on-par with arguing about any system to achieve a goal. It's like arguing about how to throw a baseball -- should it be overhand, or side-arm? Or shooting 3-pointers in basketball -- should one shoot it square-shouldered, or pivot to the side and shoot it from the same side as the primary arm?

I do agree that there's a PLACE for aiming systems, and all of them are valid. What doesn't work -- or doesn't give as good results -- as another system for you, opens the door for exploration of those other systems.

I believe ghostball is deadly accurate for those that have excellent 3D spacial/perceptive abilities. For those that don't, fractional aiming, CP-to-CP, or back-of-ball aiming is a more tangible alternative. For those that don't like those latter two methods, there's CTE and its offshoots (e.g. Pro-1). And on and on.

The haters need not hate. Aiming is just semantics -- the result is what counts.

-Sean
 
I 100% agree. Arguing about aiming systems is equally on-par with arguing about any system to achieve a goal. It's like arguing about how to throw a baseball -- should it be overhand, or side-arm? Or shooting 3-pointers in basketball -- should one shoot it square-shouldered, or pivot to the side and shoot it from the same side as the primary arm?

I do agree that there's a PLACE for aiming systems, and all of them are valid. What doesn't work -- or doesn't give as good results -- as another system for you, opens the door for exploration of those other systems.

I believe ghostball is deadly accurate for those that have excellent 3D spacial/perceptive abilities. For those that don't, fractional aiming, CP-to-CP, or back-of-ball aiming is a more tangible alternative. For those that don't like those latter two methods, there's CTE and its offshoots (e.g. Pro-1). And on and on.

The haters need not hate. Aiming is just semantics -- the result is what counts.

-Sean

CTE PRO ONE is not an off-shoot of CTE. Real CTE connects the player to the geometry of a table.

What separates CTE from other systems is that CTE as a system takes a shooter to the shot line.


Stan Shuffett
 
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I love these ideas in relation to pool....

from the toyota ad....

Let’s Go Places
Inspiration doesn’t favor those who sit still.
Let’s go beyond everything we know. Let’s embrace everything we don’t. Let’s not just look toward the future, but define it. We’ve learned that inspiration doesn’t favor those who sit still. So let’s be bold. Ambitious. Even unconventional. Because that’s where big ideas come from. Ideas that not only take you places you can find on a map, but also ones you can find in your heart. Let’s go places, together.
 
New Ideas

from the toyota ad....

Let’s Go Places
Inspiration doesn’t favor those who sit still.
Let’s go beyond everything we know. Let’s embrace everything we don’t. Let’s not just look toward the future, but define it. We’ve learned that inspiration doesn’t favor those who sit still. So let’s be bold. Ambitious. Even unconventional. Because that’s where big ideas come from. Ideas that not only take you places you can find on a map, but also ones you can find in your heart. Let’s go places, together.

I agree...I like ideas that encourage and create new players. If we have more new players everything pool gets better.
 
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