lack of fundamentals or lack of practice?

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hi everyone, i'm wondering if you are an intermediate or even advanced player, (i'm a B' player), how do you find out if your lack of progress or very slow progress is due to bad fundamentals or not practicing enough?or is it both in most cases? i think for most players, in order to get close to pro level, you have to practice almost every day, so even if you perfect your fundamentals it's still not enough, you still have to practice daily right?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At B level, you should be spending most of your time playing other players. You're at the point where you can really start to absorb some good information by playing other players. That's how you'll see your game jump to the next level.
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At B level, you should be spending most of your time playing other players. You're at the point where you can really start to absorb some good information by playing other players. That's how you'll see your game jump to the next level.
i'm trying to do all of the above, practicing as much as i can, playing other players and of course playing tournaments.progress is slow but at least i'm improving.

the categories in my country are E' ,D', C' ,B', A', A+ and A pro so i still have a long way to go yet.
 
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Zerksies

Well-known member
Fine tune fundamentals, even at that level you still have inconsistency's. Also start watching plenty of pool. Learn what to do right and also see what not to do.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i'm trying to do all of the above, practicing as much as i can, playing other players and of course playing tournaments.progress is slow but at least i'm improving.

the categories in my country are E' ,D', C' ,B', A', A+ and A pro so i still have a long way to go yet.
Did you know that too much practicing can create a fear of performing? It's true. Beware of practicing becoming your comfort zone, because then when you are in a playing situation against another player, it can feel intimidating. At your level, you absolutely have to make playing other players your first priority. Yes, take your mistakes back to the practice table, but playing against other people has to be your comfort zone or you will not progress.

And yes, fundamentals are important, and they will be important as long as you play pool, however, don't get hung up on perfecting them or you will spend all of your time on that. Nobody's perfect. At B level, you've already done a lot of work on your fundamentals. Now it's time to play. It's only when you perform that you will see what aspects of your game that you need to work on.
 
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David in FL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Although few want to hear it, there’s another possibility. Sometimes we’re just as good as we’re going to get because we’ve pretty much reached the limits of our own natural abilities.

It’s an absolute untruth that anybody who practices enough or works hard enough can reach the absolute pinnacle of any endeavor just because they want to. I’m not talking about losing the ability to win a couple more matches here or there, or bump the FargoRate a handful of points. But somebody who’s been playing a significant period of time, is a 600 and thinks that with “more practice and better fundamentals“ that they can jump to 750, is probably in for a rude awakening…

I might want to be a high-level basketball player. I might practice every single day and get the best coaching available. But the bottom line is, I’m an old, fat guy with a 9 inch vertical jump. I simply don’t have the physical tools no matter how badly I want it, how much I practice, or how good my fundamentals are.

As to how to find out? I would probably engage the best instructor I could find and see where that takes me, because I’m not likely to figure that out on my own.

Now, after that cheery post, we return you to your regularly scheduled programming… 😁
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Put differently, the people who practice incessantly without improvement need lessons/direction/a look at their fundamentals.
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
B can mean a lot of different things as outlined by Dr. Dave here https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/rating/abcd/

Generally tho, your fundamentals should be good enough. You should really be studying the games you are playing and matches with better players are a great way to do that as Fran mentioned, but also just good old studying away from the tables.

Take young Neils Feijen as an example, the guy had wonderful fundamentals and a decent understanding of the game, but he could not win tournaments his stroke was more than capable of winning, if he only directed that beautiful thing at the right shots. And he was already a pro. It took him several years of hard work to learn the nuances of the game so that he could become world champion over a decade into his career. Tactical play is massively important and is what separates the top pros from guys with merely a solid basic 9ball game, and to develop that took years of dedication not just on the table but away from it as well. And yes, he was playing like 6+ hrs a day. A B player doesn't even yet have a solid basic 9ball game yet. Look at some of the hot shot young players you see in early rounds of tournaments, they shoot great, but lack the experience to choose the right way to shoot shots and opt for safeties when they should.

As others above mentioned, if your aspirations are so high, you need to find a high level instructor, preferably one who has been to or beyond the level you aspire to so they can sand the rough edges of your game and turn you into a real player, not just a guy that shoots kinda good pool. One thing stood out a lot in Dr. Dave's article on playing levels linked above, "the gap between a pro and an A player might as well be as wide as the gap between that A player and a C player. You have a loooooong way to go indeed. good luck.
 
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gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
It's the quality not the quantity of practice that can reward with noticable improvement.
When I had the good fortune of finding and hiring Backward Jan for lessons, the first week was spent practice and perfection of address and stance. Taking the time to ingrain good habits is easier in the beginning. Bad habits developed wandering and banging balls around are hard to break.
In the absence of a trusted instructor, Barry Stark provides great tips and instructions on YouTube.
Learning Snooker is a good place to start with his videos. There are over 150 available. Don't try to digest it all at once.
Coaching Session Part 1 of 3 is interesting. While it's not a first lesson it shows his assessment of her progress. Possibly a week of practicing between lessons.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Although few want to hear it, there’s another possibility. Sometimes we’re just as good as we’re going to get because we’ve pretty much reached the limits of our own natural abilities.

It’s an absolute untruth that anybody who practices enough or works hard enough can reach the absolute pinnacle of any endeavor just because they want to. I’m not talking about losing the ability to win a couple more matches here or there, or bump the FargoRate a handful of points. But somebody who’s been playing a significant period of time, is a 600 and thinks that with “more practice and better fundamentals“ that they can jump to 750, is probably in for a rude awakening…

I might want to be a high-level basketball player. I might practice every single day and get the best coaching available. But the bottom line is, I’m an old, fat guy with a 9 inch vertical jump. I simply don’t have the physical tools no matter how badly I want it, how much I practice, or how good my fundamentals are.

As to how to find out? I would probably engage the best instructor I could find and see where that takes me, because I’m not likely to figure that out on my own.

Now, after that cheery post, we return you to your regularly scheduled programming… 😁
EXCEPT ---- There's still room for attitude adjustments at any age. Our perception of ourselves plays a big role in how we progress. A change in attitude can help a person break through to the next level, even when it looks like all hope is lost.
 

David in FL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
EXCEPT ---- There's still room for attitude adjustments at any age. Our perception of ourselves plays a big role in how we progress. A change in attitude can help a person break through to the next level, even when it looks like all hope is lost.
I wouldn’t consider that an exception to my point.

I absolutely agree that sometimes adjusting attitude/outlook and have a positive effect on improvement.

But that doesn’t mean that there’s not a limit to the physical abilities of most of us. Regardless of how we look at it…
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
Coaching Session Part 2 .
A problem I encountered in my earliest learning from books was reading ahead. By having the whole elephant of knowledge available it can be hard to spend the time on the stance and address when the grip is such powerful knowledge.
Having beautiful hand action without a beautiful shooting platform can lead to frustration in that missed shots can seem mysterious.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wouldn’t consider that an exception to my point.

I absolutely agree that sometimes adjusting attitude/outlook and have a positive effect on improvement.

But that doesn’t mean that there’s not a limit to the physical abilities of most of us. Regardless of how we look at it…
I bet that number is pretty small compared to those who just needed an attitude adjustment. Of course, putting aside injuries and illnesses.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Although few want to hear it, there’s another possibility. Sometimes we’re just as good as we’re going to get because we’ve pretty much reached the limits of our own natural abilities.

It’s an absolute untruth that anybody who practices enough or works hard enough can reach the absolute pinnacle of any endeavor just because they want to. I’m not talking about losing the ability to win a couple more matches here or there, or bump the FargoRate a handful of points. But somebody who’s been playing a significant period of time, is a 600 and thinks that with “more practice and better fundamentals“ that they can jump to 750, is probably in for a rude awakening…

I might want to be a high-level basketball player. I might practice every single day and get the best coaching available. But the bottom line is, I’m an old, fat guy with a 9 inch vertical jump. I simply don’t have the physical tools no matter how badly I want it, how much I practice, or how good my fundamentals are.

As to how to find out? I would probably engage the best instructor I could find and see where that takes me, because I’m not likely to figure that out on my own.

Now, after that cheery post, we return you to your regularly scheduled programming… 😁

I agree that in sports where a certain physical attribute or physical condition makes a difference, one can easily become stagnant or stuck at a certain skill level.

Pool, however, is not one of those sports. It's a hand-eye coordination sport that relies more on the ability to govern our mental and emotional states of mind, rather than on any physical attribute or physical condition.

A 600 Fargo who's been playing at that level for a few years can greatly improve their game to 700 or higher through determination and plenty of table time. Of course, age-related drawbacks like eyesight or nerve/muscle condition could hold some players back. But most players become stagnant simply because life is full of things that soak up time...family, job, friends, entertainment, etc...

To keep improving at pool beyond just good or very good takes dedicated table time. And time is something a lot of players either can't find or just don't care enough about getting better to dedicate the time for it.
 

David in FL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree that in sports where a certain physical attribute or physical condition makes a difference, one can easily become stagnant or stuck at a certain skill level.

Pool, however, is not one of those sports. It's a hand-eye coordination sport that relies more on the ability to govern our mental and emotional states of mind, rather than on any physical attribute or physical condition.

A 600 Fargo who's been playing at that level for a few years can greatly improve their game to 700 or higher through determination and plenty of table time. Of course, age-related drawbacks like eyesight or nerve/muscle condition could hold some players back. But most players become stagnant simply because life is full of things that soak up time...family, job, friends, entertainment, etc...

To keep improving at pool beyond just good or very good takes dedicated table time. And time is something a lot of players either can't find or just don't care enough about getting better to dedicate the time for it.

I absolutely disagree.

There are only about 300 people in the entire US with a Fargo north of 700. Just because somebody wants to be that good, and works and practices at it, doesn’t mean that they can achieve it. If that were the case there would be thousands playing at that level, not just hundreds. Equally, that would mean that those hundreds of 700 Fargo players just need to “change their attitude” a bit to show SVB the door. Somehow I doubt that he’s quaking in his boots over that. 😉

Hand/eye coordination, fine motor skills, mental and physical stamina, eyesight, spatial processing, and many other factors, even intelligence, can all be limiting.

It reminds me of the seven handicap golfers out there who swear that if only they had the same amount of time to devote to the game that professional golfers do, that they too could be the next Tiger Woods. Sorry, it just isn’t the case.

I’m not saying that it’s impossible for everyone, and I’m certainly not saying don’t strive to get better if that’s what you want, and of course good instruction can definitely help. But a lot of people would likely be better off if they recognized that natural limitations exist and temper expectations accordingly.

But then, instructors don’t like hearing that either. And they certainly don’t want potential students to believe it. 😊
 
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WobblyStroke

Well-known member
I absolutely disagree.

There are only about 300 people in the entire US with a Fargo north of 700. Just because somebody wants to be that good, and works and practices at it, doesn’t mean that they can achieve it. If that were the case there would be thousands playing at that level, not just hundreds. Equally, that would mean that those hundreds of 700 Fargo players just need to “change their attitude” a bit to show SVB the door. Somehow I doubt that he’s quaking in his boots over that. 😉

Hand/eye coordination, fine motor skills, mental and physical stamina, eyesight, spatial processing, and many other factors can all be limiting.

It reminds me of the seven handicap golfers out there who swear that if only they had the same amount of time to devote to the game that professional golfers do, that they too could be the next Tiger Woods. Sorry, it just isn’t the case.

I’m not saying that it’s impossible for everyone, and I’m certainly not saying don’t strive to get better if that’s what you want, and of course good instruction can definitely help. But a lot of people would likely be better off if they recognized that natural limitations exist and temper expectations accordingly.

But then, instructors don’t like hearing that either. And they certainly don’t want potential students to believe it. 😊
ye, people have no idea the chasm that exists between really good, routinely crushing the ghost, and a real pro. The most laughable stat I ever heard is that damn near 80% of North American men believe they could have gone pro at one sport or another "if only....". Pure uncle Rico nonsense. I'm not sure 80% coulda made a high school team.

Harvey Pennick, a legendary golf coach, shared a story he called : "Dreamer Meets the Real Thing". So this businessman on verge of retirement comes to him and says, I've made all my money, my kids don't need me anymore, my companies will go on without me, and now I can fully focus on golf. I can get around just about any course from the blues at +2 or better and can devote a lot of time to practice. Will you coach me so I can get my game up to the level I can compete on the senior tour in a couple years?
Pennick says nothing and just waves him over to a guy at the end of the range. As they watch this guy pure every shot dead perfect Harvey tells him, "See this guy here? He's also made his millions, his family doesn't need him, and he can devote himself to golf all the time. He will also be joining the senior tour in 2 years, and there is no amount of money you could pay me to waste my time trying to coach you up to compete with him."
It was Tom Kite. The dreamer saw the real thing and I'm sure enjoyed a high level of amateur play in his retirement, but a pro he was not and never would be.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I absolutely disagree.

There are only about 300 people in the entire US with a Fargo north of 700. Just because somebody wants to be that good, and works and practices at it, doesn’t mean that they can achieve it. If that were the case there would be thousands playing at that level, not just hundreds. Equally, that would mean that those hundreds of 700 Fargo players just need to “change their attitude” a bit to show SVB the door. Somehow I doubt that he’s quaking in his boots over that. 😉

Hand/eye coordination, fine motor skills, mental and physical stamina, eyesight, spatial processing, and many other factors, even intelligence, can all be limiting.

It reminds me of the seven handicap golfers out there who swear that if only they had the same amount of time to devote to the game that professional golfers do, that they too could be the next Tiger Woods. Sorry, it just isn’t the case.

I’m not saying that it’s impossible for everyone, and I’m certainly not saying don’t strive to get better if that’s what you want, and of course good instruction can definitely help. But a lot of people would likely be better off if they recognized that natural limitations exist and temper expectations accordingly.

But then, instructors don’t like hearing that either. And they certainly don’t want potential students to believe it. 😊

There are prime windows of opportunity in life for the mind to learn and develop skills and talents. Unfortunately, that prime time is between about 3 and 10 years old for most people. So, the majority of adults have missed that window of opportunity. And we find ourselves in later years wanting to learn a new skill, or finally master a skill that we already have our hands on. Little do we know that all the little bad habits we've created over the years (pertaining to that skill) will be the obstacles that keep us from improving.

But that certainly doesn't mean that we can't drastically improve, that we can't reach a level of mastery. It just means it will be a lot harder to do, because we have to actually put ourselves out there and work at it. And it's a lot easier to say, "I don't have the time" or "I just don't have enough natural talent", than it is to actually devote quality time to improving our skills.

So what happens most of the time is that we reach a certain point, based on the effort we give, and then we tell ourselves that's good enough. Sure, we might wanna be a little better, but not at the expense of dedicating more work to it.

Becoming a pro pool player (Fargo of 700 or higher) would involve devoting all of your attention and time to nothing but pool for several years, just as becoming a worldclass musician requires 100% devotion to practicing and performing for years. It's definitely not easy, especially as you get older and begin to juggle family and career responsibilities. But it's also not impossible.

Any player in the 600's who devotes just enough table time to keep a consistent game will remain at whatever skill level they happen to currently be. But that can change with table time. If not, then overhauling a few habits and fundamentals should be considered.
 
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poolnut7879

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Percentage points of getting better go down the better you get. Law of diminishing returns where you're on that plateau and must love the journey and not expect significant gains.

For example a world class power lifter who adds five pounds to their squat after 20 years of intense training is a huge deal. 5 measley pounds. Now equate that to pool if you been playing for 20 years and what that means as far as improving.

Love the plateau and keep grinding.
 

David in FL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are prime windows of opportunity in life for the mind to learn and develop skills and talents. Unfortunately, that prime time is between about 3 and 10 years old for most people. So, the majority of adults have missed that window of opportunity. And we find ourselves in later years wanting to learn a new skill, or finally master a skill that we already have our hands on. Little do we know that all the little bad habits we've created over the years (pertaining to that skill) will be the obstacles that keep us from improving.

But that certainly doesn't mean that we can't drastically improve, that we can't reach a level of mastery. It just means it will be a lot harder to do, because we have to actually put ourselves out there and work at it. And it's a lot easier to say, "I don't have the time" or "I just don't have enough natural talent", than it is to actually devote quality time to improving our skills.

So what happens most of the time is that we reach a certain point, based on the effort we give, and then we tell ourselves that's good enough. Sure, we might wanna be a little better, but not at the expense of dedicating more work to it.

Becoming a pro pool player (Fargo of 700 or higher) would involve devoting all of your attention and time to nothing but pool for several years, just as becoming a worldclass musician requires 100% devotion to practicing and performing for years. It's definitely not easy, especially as you get older and begin to juggle family and career responsibilities. But it's also not impossible.

Any player in the 600's who devotes just enough table time to keep a consistent game will remain at whatever skill level they happen to currently be. But that can change with table time. If not, then overhauling a few habits and fundamentals should be considered.
Perhaps I‘m misunderstanding.

But surely you’re not saying that you believe that anyone, who simply has the desire and is willing to put in the time and effort can master pool, or anything else for that matter, to the professional level?


There was a guy years ago named Dan McLaughlin. He wanted to put to the test the 10,000 hour theory. That anybody who devoted 10,000 hours of intense, dedicated, purposeful practice to something could achieve mastery of that thing. He decided to apply it to Golf. He documented his journey along the way and called it The Dan Plan.

He quit his job and spent the next six or seven years doing nothing but trying to learn to play golf with the goal of gaining his card on the PGA tour.

The short story is that he never came close. If I remember correctly he got down to about a 2 or 3 handicap. A decent player to be sure, but not even all that good by amateur standards. I know some injuries impacted his ability to continue, but even so, those who know golf and followed him and his progress understand that he simply didn’t have the tools to play at that level no matter how hard he tried and worked.

Again, I’m certainly not saying that there aren’t people who aren’t capable of extraordinary improvement and might even be able to get to the professional level. But there are far more that simply cannot.
 
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