Lake Salvage Wood Opinions, Please!

[KCRack'em]

I stumbled on this from 2009 just now:

... The old saying that no two cues built by the same cue maker are going to hit exactly alike is very true. Now Xrays may solve part of the mystery, however, I suspect that they will in the long run leave many questions unanswered.

Since a cues hit is a direct reflection of the materials and the construction techniques used to build it, there are many factors that can account for the differences. I think that a cues hit in many respects is vary similar to the tones produced by musical instruments, especially Violins. Many studies have made trying to reproduce the magic of a Stradivarius Violin, and all have ended in failure. Upon close examination, including Xrays, the construction techniques were not out of the ordinary, and the finish was also typical for it's time. In the end the magic of those Violins was discovered to be in the wood used for their construction. It just so happened that when this gentleman started making Violins, that the seasoned stocks of wood consisted of wood was that very slow growing. This was due to a major cold temperature change that had occurred and spanned almost two hundred years before he started building Violins.

I think that in many cases with pool cues, a woods tonal qualities are over looked by many cue makers today, it fact I would bet that very few even pay attention to this quality concerning wood. Today, most cue makers focus on figured woods with straight and beautiful grain. Now due to all of the above many cues must be cored with another wood due to their stability long term. However, this was is not a sure fire method that will make all cues perfect either, but I think it certainly has more bearing on this discussion than it is given credit for.

Many of the cue makers of old understood how important this aspect of wood selection was. Many wood tap dowels of wood, including their shaft wood and divide new stocks of wood accordingly based upon tone alone. Many people do not understand that by checking your wood in this manner it will identify internal defects that can not be seen, such as knots, cracks, or other forms of weakness. When checking wood in this manner, people look for crisp bell like quality

Construction techniques can also have major effects of the tonal quality of a pool cue. The depth of a bored hole, the tightness or the lack of tightness of a tenon jointed area, the insert in the cue shaft, and all forms of general assemble certainly play a major part in tonal quality. To prove this is very simple, since tones are nothing but vibrations and sounds, anyone can take their favorite cue that they love the hit of and just loosen the weight bolt if it has one. This will make a major change in the cues vibration and sound, and it can make a great hitting cue sound and feel like a turd. Doing all the repairs that I do, the above along with loose ferrules are the most common things I find that make great hitting cue hit like shit, and they are the easiest to correct....

This is a subject I'd really like to learn more about, so I'm asking that folks weigh in. The knowledge base here is amazing and I hope people will share on this subject.
My limited experience has led me to like kingwood as a result of a Capone I played with about 10 years ago. Sadly, I brought it out a year ago and either the magic was gone or I couldn't feel it anymore. That begs the following questions: How much do wood qualities change over time? How long might it take? It seems like 10 years is a blip on the radar and would be insignificant.
If you like the Stradivarius comparison, this is a must read about the qualities of recovered old growth or lake salvage woods: http://www.desertrosebanjo.com/oldwood.html
Thoughts?
Karl

 

[The Renfro]

I stumbled on this from 2009 just now:



This is a subject I'd really like to learn more about, so I'm asking that folks weigh in. The knowledge base here is amazing and I hope people will share on this subject.
My limited experience has led me to like kingwood as a result of a Capone I played with about 10 years ago. Sadly, I brought it out a year ago and either the magic was gone or I couldn't feel it anymore. That begs the following questions: How much do wood qualities change over time? How long might it take? It seems like 10 years is a blip on the radar and would be insignificant.
If you like the Stradivarius comparison, this is a must read about the qualities of recovered old growth or lake salvage woods: http://www.desertrosebanjo.com/oldwood.html
Thoughts?
Karl

Did you really have to post this right as I was headed for bed????

Harmonics, frequencies and resonance are almost unheard of in the world of pool cues but you have stumbled into an area that I firmly believe will change everything eventually.......

I can actually pick up a cue and smack it with my palm at the joint and have a pretty good Idea of whether I am going to like it or not... I have no clue if the cue is vibrating at a C or an A or a B flat but my hands know more than my brain does about lots of things..... I had a cuemaker once tell me no one could tell the difference between a steel jointed cue or a radial flat face if they were blind folded..... I could tell the steel jointed cues just by ringing them with my palm because the joint dampened the way the cue rang.......

As far as the salvaged wood is concerned that would be upto the overall cue construction as to whether it suited you or not.... Vibrations from a shaft could be dampened or enhanced by the woods selected... the joint materials and the techniques, adhesives and materials used to join the sections....... Shaft tapers and pinches will effect this as well....

In summary do I like the idea of the salvaged wood being more tonal in quality... I do.... DO I think it matters unless you have cuemaker that understands tones and resonance... Absolutely not..... This is the main reason I have criticized some cuemakers for charging a premium for old growth shafts...... Sticking an old growth shaft n a butt that doesn't transmit harmonics is simply extra cash in their pocket and no benefit to you.......

You asked for us to chime in and I have plenty more to say but I did say it's my bedtime =)

We'll see what other opinions show up over the next day or 2........

 

[henho]

I don't think there is a way to reliably determine how wood in general changes over time since factors such as minute changes in density over the length of the shaft and the environmental conditions in which it was stored will influence this. The increased density of aged or salvaged wood presumably will reduce fluctuations over time.


Don't want to hijack the thread but the idea about harmonics is fascinating. Got me thinking that perhaps what is important is not just transmitting the frequencies reliably but in fact what frequencies are transmitted? If a shaft is "tuned" so that upon striking it vibrates with a particular harmonic frequency spectrum (i.e. harmonics are aligned) would that change the hit? Someone should try it!

 

[West Point 1987]

I've been saying this for as long as I've been on the forum...the tonal quality of different types of wood and the construction of the cue does indeed make a difference...what that difference is is pretty much a matter of preference. Mike Gulyassy is onto this somewhat, I hear he has you hold a cue at the butt end and then he scratches the tip with a fingernail to demonstrate how much his cues transmit vibration (and therefore "feel"). Kind of like the line Paul Newman has in the Hustler, where he tells Piper Laurie about how a cue has "nerves in it".

I'm firmly convinced that the reason most of us have preferences for various categories of construction (SS piloted joint, flat faced ivory, wood-wood, half splice, full splice, merry widow, etc.) is that we've come to prefer a "feel" that we can predict based on the type of wood, joint and construction. Then it comes down to actually trying a specific cue out to truly fall in love with it's hit.

And yes, I do think this can change as a cue ages, depending on how often it's played with by YOU. As far as lake wood shafts go, I've never tried them...but since they have a unique density and flexibility, I'd have to say there'd be something unique about them.

 

[LC3]

I'm firmly convinced that the reason most of us have preferences for various categories of construction (SS piloted joint, flat faced ivory, wood-wood, half splice, full splice, merry widow, etc.) is that we've come to prefer a "feel" that we can predict based on the type of wood, joint and construction. Then it comes down to actually trying a specific cue out to truly fall in love with it's hit.

I agree. For me, it has always been the feel of the cue's hit. The right feel is comfortable (e.g. "nerves" in the cue) and inspires confidence.

 

[ridewiththewind]

There is certainly a reason that you see certain woods continually used for pool cues. I, too, believe that the butt wood plays a factor in how a cue may play...some are just better at transmitting that feedback than others. For instance, Bocote gets a bad rep sometimes because many feel it is simply an ugly wood...until they play with a bocote cue and have that 'ah ha' moment. I searched for about 4 years for that 'perfect' piece of Tulipwood for a full splice cue...I'm glad I did, because it practically 'sings' in the hand...golly gee, but that cue plays good! There is certainly nothing wrong with doing a little research on a wood(s) you are interested in.

I have a Timeless Timber shaft...and I love it! It is a lake submerged hard rock maple. The science of lake submerged wood is that it is alleged that over time, the minerals in the lake water replaces the oxygen in the wood. Makes the wood stiffer...and in the right pieces, more resonant as well. Also turns the wood a kinda 'dirty' dark tan. Some people love them, others can't abide them.

Lisa

 

[alstl]

There is no right or wrong answer on this. Earl wears gloves and puts a tennis wrap on his cue because he doesn't want to feel the cue, his words not mine.

For me the most important thing is the results I get with a cue, whether I can pocket balls and move the cue ball where I want it to go. If I started thinking about the "feel" I suspect my game would decline - keep it simple.

 

[KCRack'em]

First, I really meant the thread to become a discussion of harmonics and other wood properties. The bit about how it changes over time was more afterthought than anything else. In regards to the kingwood cue, I saw many faces light up after a trial with it.

My friend James has some great ideas that I'd like to share:
"To sum up my beleifs on the topic, I believe there is an optimal harmonic range (window) for cue construction AND an optimal harmonic range for each individual players physique. No two players are alike.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15926864 ..."
We have discussed this in great detail. If you think about all that goes into matching a person to a set of golf clubs, it stands to reason that maybe someday we will have a machine to match cues to our physiology and to our strokes. I think we would have that right now if there was more money in the industry. Pool seems like big business to most of us, but it's all relative.

Lisa hit the nail on the head regarding lake salvage wood. I'll speak to this in my next post.

It seems that we tend to like pool cues based largely on aesthetics and adapt to new cues over time.

 

[KCRack'em]

From the Web site referenced in the first post:

"A Brief Background:

The term "Recovered Old Growth Timber" is self explanatory, but to lay the foundation of our discussion, here are some basics. Old Growth Timber is lumber from forests that are virtually untouched by the influences of man since the recession of the last Ice Age aproximately 10,000 years ago. Specifically, old growth forests are found in their natural state, consisting of the variety of flora that developed spontaneously with no influences from man. These forests have never been subjected to the disrupting effects of logging. In ecosystems such as this, Nature achieved the perfect balance to support the largest variety of species of both hardwoods and softwoods. In the vast forests surrounding the Great Lakes region, these forests developed into endless expanses of towering evergreens, centurys old, that served as a natural canopy to the forests below. Under this canopy over the ensuing 10,000 years developed unlimited expanses of hardwoods including birch, oak, elm, beech and maple. Due to the dense canopy above, the hardwoods grew very slowly and consistantly, producing extremely dense, evenly grained and beautiful wood. Unless these forests fell victim to a natural disaster such as a lightning strike and fire, the trees would grow slowly for many centuries.

This is the natural enviornment that greeted the first settlers and our forefathers when they arrived on the American continent beginning in the late 15th century. These endless forests became the building materials that sustained the biggest migration in the history of modern man and the foundation upon which modern North America was built. As western expansion increased over the centuries, so did the destruction of these virgin forests. The unbridled destruction reached its peak in the period between 1850 and 1900, finally halting in 1919. Today barely 2% of the virgin forests survive. During its peak, upwards of five million trees a year were cut in the Great Lakes region alone. These trees would be transported by the only means available at that time, floated to the mills down any available waterway to the closest mill town where the huge trees could be turned into the building materials of a Nation. These mill towns closely resembled the boom towns in the West that sprang up whenever gold or silver was discovered, then dissapeared just as quickly when the riches ran out.

A situation existed in those long gone logging days that we have just come to understand in the past few years. During the entire history of the logging of the American wilderness, and especially during its peak in the last half of the 19th century, literally hundreds of thousands of logs bound for the mills became waterlogged on their journey and sank in the rivers and lakes before they could be processed into lumber. In some of these rivers and lakes the ideal conditions exist that have allowed this priceless heritage of the American continent to survive intact. In the northern waterways and lakes, when the water temperture remains extremely low and the oxygen content limited, the natural forces, especially the bacterial degradation that would normally turn the wood into useless pulp in a short time are arrested and the wood has survived. It has not survived unchanged however. In the cold depths of the Great Lakes especially, natural leaching and the action of anaerobic bactertia which live in the absence oxygen have been at work for the centuries the wood has been submerged. These bacteria have entered the logs and consumed only the substances such as the resin, starch and all the soft materials inside the cells, leaving the wood and its cellular structure intact. The wood now consists of millions of hollow chambers that were once cells full of organic materials. It is this verifiable fact that has led the interest in this wood in the musical instrument field."

Call me crazy, but I think this is fascinating.

 

[joelpope]

They are addicting...

All I have played with for the last few years is old growth shafts

Love the hit, love the sound, love the look and appreciate the history