last 2 and the break

Nobody has answered the OP yet. I'm curious to know what everybody thinks too.

I'd say giving up the last 2 depends heavily on the caliber of player. To a couple of shortstops the last 2 means nothing and the might as well play even. But to a couple of D players, the last 2 could be worth 2 or 3 games in a race to 7.

Similarly with the breaks...the breaks are worth absolutely nothing between D players, but everything to pros.
 
Take a look at this Dawg.

Please believe that there are a number of gamblers that have replied to try to explain this. In no game of 9 ball will you be able to go out of order and pocket a ball legaly. The wild 7 and last 2 means if the stronger player(the one giving the weight) makes the 7 then the other player still has the last 2. meaning that if he makes either of the last 2 he wins, the lowered number ball still has to be hit first, it's not any order. In regards to the scale you cut and pasted if you look at it diagonaly down the line everything matches except the wild 6 that I think is a misprint, I think it should read the wild 8 any the rest of it falls into place. I suggest you call and ask. What I mean is if you look from right to left on the diagnol the wild 8 matches down the line (except what I believe is a misprint withe the wild 6), the wild 7 batches, the wild 7 and last 2 matches, and the strongest spot is the wild 7 and 8. It works that way. Above all please beleive the gamblers here (I've been matching up for over 20 years) the balls always have to be hit in order in 9 ball. Not made, just hit first for a legal shot. The wild anything means it can get shit in, you don't have to call it. The last 2, 3, 4, or whatever means if you make any of the last remaining balls of the number of your spot then you win, they still have to be made in order. The 6 and out for example means you get the 6 ball, 7 ball, 8 ball, and 9 ball to win the game. (refered to as money balls) Again the balls still have to be hit in rotation from lowest to highest remaining on the table. I really think that the wild 6 in the chart si meant to be the wild 8. What do the rest of you think?

Thanks
Jason
 
Also to Drew

That is pretty much what I said on the first page, I agree with you totaly.

Thanks
Jason
 
ONe more thought for Dawg.

If your interpretation of the wild ball is correct what would the benifit be in having the wild 6 over the wild 7 or 8? Meaning in any rack it is imposible to know just where the balls are going to lie. If the 7 is in the middle of the table and the 6 is tied up then the 7 would be more benificial in that game. So there is no real spot there. Now if you wanted to introduce something different to a spot and say someone could have a shot that they could hit ANY ball out of order to even the game up and get them back in shape, then that would be a huge spot and one I haven't seen. But to place a number on that ball would not really be a spot at all, as you don't even know if that peticular ball is able to be made. If it's tied up your dead. See what I mean? If you would like a little more of what I mean feel free to pm me and if will give you my cell number and we could talk about it. Sometimes I lose my train of thought while typing because I type so incredibly slow.

Thanks
Jason
 
This wild ball spot is something that I see a lot in snooker. For example, getting the wild 5 in a snooker game means you can shoot at that ball whenever you want...needless to say, the wild 5 in snooker is a huge spot because it always sits in the middle of the table.
 
Drew said:
This wild ball spot is something that I see a lot in snooker. For example, getting the wild 5 in a snooker game means you can shoot at that ball whenever you want...needless to say, the wild 5 in snooker is a huge spot because it always sits in the middle of the table.
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I would be willing to bet that that is not the case here.

BVal
 
Neil said:
Dawg- In my 35 years of playing and gambling, I have never heard of the spots the way you describe them. And, I have been to a number of states.

Giving the wild six would not be the same as giving the last 4. This is why- if I make the 6 on a legal shot, it stays down. Now, your spot is gone. You can only win by making the 9, just like me. However, if I give you the wild 6 out, now, if I make the 6 and miss the 7, you still have the 7,8,and 9 as money balls. They still have to be by a legal shot. Such as if the 7,8 and 9 are left for you, you have to hit the 7 first. But, if you hit the 7 first and slop in the 7, 8 or 9, you win.

That may be the chart they are using, but that doesn't mean it is right or fair. The B player should be giving the C player the wild 8. It looks like whoever made it screwed up and continued going down in number of the spots across the C row, but not actually down in spots.
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That is my guess as well. I suggest that maybe Dawg should give them a call and ask them to explain the chart.

BVal
 
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This is how the chart should look so that it would sctually make sense

gridun7.png
 
BVal said:
That is my guess as well. I suggest that maybe Dawg should give them a call and ask them to explain the chart.

BVal
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As I mentioned, I'm not an expert on this. I'm only trying to get my arms around it as well. I'm prossesing what seems logical based on the chart. The chart is for tournaments, not really gambling. If the chart should be a travis posted above me, that would make more sense. I sincerely appreciate the replys. I'll read them all and see if everything gets more clear in my head, as soon as this fuxing hangover calms down. I need some coffee.
 
Just chiming in to agree with the rest of the crowd... while slang can mean different things in different pool rooms, I am pretty sure that 99% of the world uses "wild" to mean "if it drops legally (in rotation) then it's a win". I don't care what some joint in florida uses to handicap.

I have never heard of this other version of "wild". Why bother with different #'s on the "wild" ball if it can be shot out of order!? For practical purposes, the wild 6 and wild 7 would be identical: you are running 1-5 and 8-9 in order, and you can freely shoot the six before the seven or vice versa, using EITHER the wild 6 or wild 7 handicap. Think about it, they're really the same thing under this method. So why bother changing the number on the wild ball since it can be shot anytime?
 
CreeDo said:
Just chiming in to agree with the rest of the crowd... while slang can mean different things in different pool rooms, I am pretty sure that 99% of the world uses "wild" to mean "if it drops legally (in rotation) then it's a win". I don't care what some joint in florida uses to handicap.

I have never heard of this other version of "wild". Why bother with different #'s on the "wild" ball if it can be shot out of order!? For practical purposes, the wild 6 and wild 7 would be identical: you are running 1-5 and 8-9 in order, and you can freely shoot the six before the seven or vice versa, using EITHER the wild 6 or wild 7 handicap. Think about it, they're really the same thing under this method. So why bother changing the number on the wild ball since it can be shot anytime?
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beware chimed in with an answer to that when I asked him earlier in the thread. when a skilled player runs out, it is less likely that the lower wild ball will still be on the table. He may run to the 6, but miss the 7. Or in a more extreme example, a wild 8 is much better than a wild 3, because the 3 will be gone soon, and the 8 will always be there for a scapegoat until basically the end.

logical, but very odd and of course never heard of it. it's too random to have a wild ball that could be in the middle of the table making it a lot easier, but most of the time it will just be another shot and what are the chances of falling on that ball if you were trying to fall on another ball? it's odd setting for the wild ball like that when there will usually be a chance to set on the next ball.
 
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In response to the OP's question, comparisons between ball-spots and games on the wire cannot be made without first knowing the length of the race. One game on the wire in a race to 5 is obviously stronger than a 1 game spot going to 9. I personally would say that the last two would be closer to giving 1 game on the wire going to 9. As others have mentioned, it is a weak spot (the weakest ball spot, IMO), but, like all spots, it has it's place. The last-two is for when two players who are very close but not equal in speed match up. The breaks is another matter entirely, and is heavily dependent on the skill level of the breaker. I have often given up the breaks to someone who either didn't break well or didn't rack well, and felt that it was actually to my advantage since breaking is not the strongest part of my game either. It all depends on the players.

Regarding wild balls, I have played in nearly 40 states over the last 15 years, and have only heard one interpretation. That is that wild balls are the same as the 9-ball; if they fall on a legal shot, it counts as a win. Wild simply means the opposite of "called", and does not mean these balls can be shot out of order. I am not aware of any spot that will allow a shooter to get credit for shooting balls out of rotation in a rotation game, but it's probably been done somewhere, sometime. The 6-out means that the weaker player gets the 6, 7, and 8, but additional specificity is required to designate those balls as being wild or called.

As far as a fair 9-ball handicapping system goes, this chart represents the fairest one I'm personally aware of. I'm not sure where it originated, but it is the default handicapping method used in the IngenPool tournament sofware. In the chart: L2 means last-two; 8 means wild 8; 6&out means wild 6, 7, 8; bks means breaks; +# means weaker player gets that # of games on the wire. Pretty self-explanatory.

Chart.jpg

Aaron
 
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Dude Aaron... that's a epic chart bro. really, awesome... thanks for posting. rep.

*edit* now, I do have one question... how do you determine the skill or grade of a player... let say I would use the above chart in run a handicap tourney. do you have a formula for grading out players? (obviusly over time.)
 
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Giving up the last two isn't much of a spot at all. Basically all you're saying is they don't have to shoot the 9.

That's it. How much harder is it to get shape on one ball? The vast majority of the time it's not that hard. Occasionally it is a challenge. But over all, not that often. If the person is decent, there is a high percentage they will be able to get some type of shape on the 9.

Giving up the breaks. If the person isn't a run out player (only runs 1 our of 15 or 1 out of 20) then that's not much of a spot either.

Now if they are better at running out, 1 our of 5 or less, then you're giving up something..

As far as how many games it's equal to. That is purely subjective to the players ability of who is getting spotted, and who is doing the spotting.
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Dude Aaron... that's a epic chart bro. really, awesome... thanks for posting. rep.

*edit* now, I do have one question... how do you determine the skill or grade of a player... let say I would use the above chart in run a handicap tourney. do you have a formula for grading out players? (obviusly over time.)
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No problem; happy to contribute.

Determining skill levels is tricky, but there have been several threads on the topic in the past, some of which contained pretty good guidelines were for determining what a "B" player is, etc. If you're good at searching, you can probably find one of those threads pretty quickly.

Good luck,
Aaron
 
Johnnyz86 said:
nice chart, since there are games on the wire listed, what is the race to?
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It kind of depends on the diversity of your crowd. Most places aren't going to have E players and A++ players in their tournaments, and could therefore get by with short races to 4 or 5. In large, diverse tournaments you would probably have to go to at least 6 or 7.

Aaron
 
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