Last Balabushka made

[JoeyInCali]

Since George Balabushka is dead and the cue was made as an inspiration, I don't see anything wrong with it.
I don't think all cuemakers have to justify whenever they use propellers, razor blades, 4 tiffany diamonds and s inlays because Gus Szambotti did it first.

 

[duke@neo.rr.com]

finally!

Since George Balabushka is dead and the cue was made as an inspiration, I don't see anything wrong with it.
I don't think all cuemakers have to justify whenever they use propellers, razor blades, 4 tiffany diamonds and s inlays because Gus Szambotti did it first.

nice to see someone who isn't arguing with reason. good point joey!

 

[merylane]

well jimbo i might not be to bright, but i do know even the construction method of something can be a art, dont you think bricklaying is an art?
stone work? how about wood working? so why not machining?

i find it funny that rambo had a pattent on his constructing design, brunswick wanted to copy it so bad they bought it from him.
gee george even copyed it??? time to bash...jimbo...oh my god even gus copyed it.... or maybee he was just copying george....more bashing jimbo....
and wow there are several cue makers doing the same

i would like to know where you would draw the line? please let me make it clear i dont approve of counterfeiting so you can leave that one out.

as far as the half circles i dout he used old ferrules that dont make sence, if it wasnt good enough of a ferrule i dought george would of used it, plus there would of been plenty of prime cut offs from making ferrules he would use for that pourpose.

and that design just ask the miz. if his dads cue had that treatmant then ask him who made it. maybee someday ill learn a little more than just typing with one finger and i can post some pics here for you .

 

[Worminator]

there was no good discussion going on in that thread, and I'm not keeping my head in the sand. those of you who claim that my cue is an exact knockoff had better look at pics of the actual cue. my cue is similar for sure but in no way exact. look at pics in the bluebook on page 135 and then tell me that my cue is an exact copy. the buttsleeve is different, the wrap is different, the pin is different, mine doesn't have the ring at the collar, and the buttcap is different. like everyone has said in here...what's wrong with having a (whoever) inspired cue? did anyone even see the ever so highly regarded SKIP WESTON balabushka copy on CUEAUCTIONS.COM? why isn't there a thread bashing skip? is he too precious to you guys to discuss his "wrong" decision to make his cue? why is Bob Dzuricky on the receiving end of a "cue enthusiast" witch hunt and anyone else doing the same thing (copying other works to any extent) being defended? I'm confused as to why the favoritism on this site toward certain cuemakers. if you don't like this from one cuemaker, speak out about all of it. enough said.

Duke,

Please do not try to put words in my mouth again. I did not post any comments about your cue other than it will most likely be for sale or trade soon like the rest of the cues you have posted to this website.

You came to this website a month or so ago trying to push a DZ on anyone with a cue for trade. Then you called out Zim and threatened to take legal action against him. You reply with an attitude to people here with tons of cue knowledge just because you don't like what they have to say, and if you really don't like what they have to say you delete the thread. If you decide to make your business and cues public, you have to live with what is posted. Doesn't mean you have to agree, but to pull threads because it doesn't go your way will not make you many friends. Your the one who claimed your new DZ was a copy of the last Balabushka made. If it is not a direct copy of that cue, maybe you should have posted it as a Balabushka inspired cue, and you would not have to be defending your cue with the post you made above.

BTW, there were many here enjoying the discussion of your original thread...and the discussion was good.

 

[SplicedPoints]

Do you find it ok for Coker to knockoff SW cues,

Jim

How does Tom/Grady knockoff SW designs? I don't see any resemblance between the cue makers except for the fact that Coker also makes 6 shortspliced cues, just like SW and tons of other cuemakers. Let's take the major parts of a SW design and campare them to Cokers.

1) Rings- SW rings are pretty famous. They were evolved from the old Kersenbrock ring design. I think everybody knows what they look like. Coker doesn't use SW stype rings. Of almost all of the Coker cues I've seen in person or in pictures (probably over 200 now), I've yet to come across a SW ring design, or at least I can't remember comming across one. The majority of the rings have hardwood sqaure blocks lined up in a ring. They're nothing like SW rings.
2) The SW band in the buttsleeve - Again, this famous SW design is missing on Coker cues. My Coker doesn't have a band, all the ones I can remember seeing doesn't have a band.
3) Wood choice- The signature SW wood that is probably unique to SW is Pau Ferro and Goncola Alves (not sure the spelling). I've yet to see either of the two types of wood on a Coker cue.
4) Ferrule choice- the ferrules on Cokers are Fiber. SWs have melamine I think.
5) General Taper- Very different taper between the 2 cues. SW butts are noticeably chubbier, where as Cokers are a bit thin.
6)Pin Choice- Cokers don't use SW brass pins.
7) Point design- Its not a knockoff to make similar basic 6 short-spliced points with 1 to 3 veneers. The few floating point Coker cues I've seen are very different from the floating point SWs. Cokers also have spliced points in the buttsleeve, which SWs don't have.

From these important visual comparisons, I see no similarity between SW and Coker. The only thing I can find that are kind of similar is with the way they construct their 6 spliced poitns. But that's not a knockoff, it's just the way they make their points.

I think people often compare those two because of their similarities in hit.

 

[monski]

Both?

So I gues both the cuemaker and the customer would have a choice as to how fully or deeply "inspired" a particular cue will go. I think that "knock offs" used strictly could pertain to any copy that is being passed off as original - downright wrong. On the other hand, if used to mean "inspired" does not really copy, pirate the original work. It on the other hand acknowledges such work while retaining the cue makers own unique touch.

 

[duke@neo.rr.com]

ok "worm"

Duke,

Please do not try to put words in my mouth again. I did not post any comments about your cue other than it will most likely be for sale or trade soon like the rest of the cues you have posted to this website.

worm...why do you care what I do with my cues? am I bothering you with offers? NO I think not, so this activity is none of your business if you are not interested. you claim that there are alot of people on this website with "alot of cue knowledge". If they have all this knowledge, why didn't someone speak up and say...you know...this cue is NOT really a copy of the balabushka. it's close but not exact as you think. maybe I did describe it wrong but it is the closest thing I have ever seen to the real thing. your comments made about my cue are real and don't say they aren't. you bashed my cue right along with your knowledgeable friends. I'm not here to "make friends" nor am I here to piss anyone off. like you guys said,"good discussion" is what goes on here and nothing more. if you can't deal with it then get out of the thread. I have just been trying to make a point that there was no wrong-doing done in this cue but very few people agree. you don't own either cue( original or ""copy") so why are you getting so upset? tell me you don't think it's a beautiful cue! if I never described it the way I did...would anyone have had a problem? would anyone have known it was a "copy"??? doubtful!! you just feel the need to bust my balls every chance YOU get and this was just one more shot you could get in. maybe you should consider who you are upsetting every time you post?

 

[SplicedPoints]

Jimbo: I think you have a point when it comes to the downright copying of "artisic" designs'. By artistic I mean the fancy design cues such as McWorters, Chudy, Bender, Mottey, Richard Black, just to name a few. The mentioned cuemakers have came up with some truly original designs that no one else has made before them. These designs are also mostly relatively new (within the last 10 yrs or so). I think it would be wrong to make a copy of the Victorian McWorter cue. The design is truly original and anything that comes close to that design cannot be truly original, and is a downright theft of artistic design.

However, if a design that is very simple, like a lot of Balabushkas and Szambotis, and has been around for a LONG time that it has almost become the Standard Design, I don't think it is totally wrong to make a cue that appear to be similar. For anybody to want to make a cue with a steel joint, delrin butt cap, and 4 to 6 spliced points, it is hard to make it so that it doesn't resemble a Balabushka. It can be done, as some cue makers have done it, but there is eventually a limit on how many variations you can do (or able to come up with) before you start to make something that resembles somebody else's design.

One other persistent question that is so far unanswered (or I don't find it satisfactory answered) is why you would bash one cue maker for making a design and not another. Balabushka lookish design is almost one of the industry's standard designs. There are many very well established and highly respected cuemakers that started off their careers by deliberately imitating either Balabushkas, Szambotis, or South Wests. Some of them are still churning out, and even advertising their cues as, Balabushka design cues. Where do you "draw the line" when it comes to designs?

 

[Worminator]

Your comments made about my cue are real and don't say they aren't. you bashed my cue right along with your knowledgeable friends.

Duke,

Believe me, I'm not upset, just posting the facts. I guess the problem I have with you is that you do not post the facts. Please show me the post where I bashed any of your cues. I have not typed one ill word about any of your cues. Again, you are trying to put words in your mouth.

 

[Worminator]

Like you guys said,"good discussion" is what goes on here and nothing more. if you can't deal with it then get out of the thread.

Or in your case, just delete it...

 

[buddha162]

You came to this website a month or so ago trying to push a DZ on anyone with a cue for trade. Then you called out Zim and threatened to take legal action against him. You reply with an attitude to people here with tons of cue knowledge just because you don't like what they have to say, and if you really don't like what they have to say you delete the thread. If you decide to make your business and cues public, you have to live with what is posted. Doesn't mean you have to agree, but to pull threads because it doesn't go your way will not make you many friends.

LOL. I haven't really made up my mind regarding the copying vs. being inspired debate, but what you said above sums up my feelings for duke in a nutshell.

He came on pushing his wares, and when someone stepped up to trade he called foul on the forum w/o contacting Zim first. And now that cue is up for sale, and he want deals deals deals. And the crazy pimping of his cues just rubbed me the wrong way. His offering the DZ to every cue for sale was just too damn funny as well.

-Roger

 

[Fred Agnir]

However, if a design that is very simple, like a lot of Balabushkas and Szambotis, and has been around for a LONG time that it has almost become the Standard Design,

Balabushka lookish design is almost one of the industry's standard designs.

I think people are arguing points that weren't made. In this particular case, we were talking about aesthetics, not structural. For the latter, if it's a patent issue, then it's theivery. I don't know much about law, but in the former, one could argue that the direct copy of a specific aesthetic design is a copywrite infringement. Someone correct me or point me the right way. Either way, some of us find it in poor taste. Cuemakers IMO should separate themselves. There are several cuemakers that I've interviewed that will specifically not copy anyone else's work.

This particular cue is not a standard Balabushka aesthetic design. And yes, Duke, if you never described it as "The last Balabushka," the same people would have been all over it as "copying." This particular cue is less offensive than others by a mile, but where do we draw the line? Where do you draw the line?

Is it beautiful? Of course. Especially in the original cues. (Yes, there are several Balabushkas with that same aesthetic inlay design on the butt sleeve). Is this a knock-off? No, not even close. Is it copying a special aesthetic design? You bet. Are we putting down Bob Dzuricky's work? No, and I'm insulted that anyone would make this so melodramatic. It's this particular cue and the whole idea of copying. Duke, I will assume that you did NOT show Bob the entire thread as I suggested as you deleted it?

For this particular cue, I find it wrong. That's my opinion. You don't have to agree with it. But don't be a child about it either. You can happily disagree, but know that others don't particularly like it. And I think if more people are exposed to the notion that some people and some cuemakers do in fact have an issue about it (aesthetic copying), then they (everyone) can make up their own educated opinion on it.

Fred <~~~ it's my right to opine

 

[Fred Agnir]

there was no good discussion going on in that thread, and I'm not keeping my head in the sand.

Of course there was. It just didn't agree with your opinion. Good discussion can include opposing viewpoints.

those of you who claim that my cue is an exact knockoff had better look at pics of the actual cue.

Nobody suggested it was an exact knockoff. I'd point you to the original thread, but you deleted it. Too bad.

why is Bob Dzuricky on the receiving end of a "cue enthusiast" witch hunt and anyone else doing the same thing (copying other works to any extent) being defended?

Why are you making this a "anti Bob Dzuricky" thread? I think highly of Bob Dzuricky. And what exactly is the "cue enthusiast" insult mean?

Fred

 

[XzyluM]

In my opinion, you are in the wrong duke. First, you came on the site with a title "The Last Balabuska." When I first checked the original thread, I was expecting a Balabuska, not a replica. Everyone else was probably expecting the same. If you wanted to get your point across, you would have simply titled the thread something along the lines of "Inspired Balabuska Cue." No one is knocking Bob or his cuemanship. Everyone likes there own style of cue and how it plays. Not everyone like's Bob's or Skip's cue and no two cues play the same. I don't even know why you would waste your time taking people's comments and putting them into your own words. And why do you continue to delete all of your posts when someone disagrees with you?

 

[JimBo]

there was no good discussion going on in that thread, and I'm not keeping my head in the sand. those of you who claim that my cue is an exact knockoff had better look at pics of the actual cue. my cue is similar for sure but in no way exact. look at pics in the bluebook on page 135 and then tell me that my cue is an exact copy. the buttsleeve is different, the wrap is different, the pin is different, mine doesn't have the ring at the collar, and the buttcap is different. like everyone has said in here...what's wrong with having a (whoever) inspired cue? did anyone even see the ever so highly regarded SKIP WESTON balabushka copy on CUEAUCTIONS.COM? why isn't there a thread bashing skip? is he too precious to you guys to discuss his "wrong" decision to make his cue? why is Bob Dzuricky on the receiving end of a "cue enthusiast" witch hunt and anyone else doing the same thing (copying other works to any extent) being defended? I'm confused as to why the favoritism on this site toward certain cuemakers. if you don't like this from one cuemaker, speak out about all of it. enough said.

Duke there was plenty of good discussion going on, the fact that it wasn't going your way is just proof of what a clown you are. I'm sorry you're too much of a clown to realize that the cue is an exact copy and not only was it a copy it was presented as such BY YOU non the less. It was your idea to show it as such and when someone pointed out that this isn't a great idea you tried to make the problem go away. Again I will say I have nothing against DZ and his cues or how they are made or play/hit. maybe it was you who asked him to build this cue as an exact copy. Sure he changed the pin, he doesn't have any original bushka pins in his shop, or bushka bumpers, maybe he doesn't have cortland wrap in his shop, none of that matters. You can also stop claiming that it's an attack on him; I have mentioned many other cuemakers who are guilty of the same thing, Coker, and Phillippi being 2. Learn to read and open your mind it's not always about what you think it is.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

I'm glad. more dzuricky's for me!

Who's designs do you think you'll ask him to steal for your next cue??

Jim

 

[JimBo]

what makes a (let's use southwest for example) basic cue from them worth $800? there are only 4 points? no fancy inlays or anything. 4 points and some trim rings. where is the value in this? is the name worth so much? they can't play THAT much better (if any) than other cues. so...my question is this: why does a name on a cue (which has NOTHING to do with how it plays) add or subtract SO MUCH "value" to a cue?

People build a good name over years of work, it has many factors, Hit, construction, and design work all add in. But I'd say consistency and reputation for quality work is not an accident. The people who have built good names have earned it over the years and deserve to get what they do. Supply and demand drives the market, no amount of PR can drive the price of the cues up, only buyers can. No matter how many times people say "hit's like a Southwest" doesn't mean it can sell for the prices or have a 7+ year wait list like a SW, these things take years of good work. You can buy whatever cues YOU like, just don't ask the cuemakers to COPY other makers designs because you want a SW or a Bushka in your price range.

JIM

 

[JimBo]

I'm glad you entered your opinion to this topic. I'm sure we'll have more "good discussion"

I'm glad that you don't have the power to DELETE this good discussion as you've done in the past when things don't go the way you dream them up. I have never liked the kids who cried then took their ball and went home.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

This is the first time I'm seeing this thread and it got me thinking. Hope you don't mind my asking questions.

Question: Does it mean that if you the materials used are different (type of wood, wrap and others), it will be "allowable"?

Question: Custom Cuemakers should have unique ways of structurally building their cues right? Plus the maker puts his name on it (as opposed to passing the cue off as an original - this is unethical). How does a maker draw the line? And how does the "original" define that line? Like the legal battles BMW and Honda (car models and parts with similar looks)? or San Miguel vs Asia Brewery (shape, color and logo on their beer bottles).

Question: What if its was part of the wishes of the customer? Do you consider the customer unethical even if the maker puts his name on the cue?

Question: Jerry Franklin and the SW look was obviously inspired from the training Jerry had. Did they (student and teacher) have issues on differentiating the look of the SW from a Kersenbrock?

I will give my opinions
1) The design of the cue is the design and not the materials, you can't copy the design change Ivory to MOP and claim it's your own. It would be like playing piano man on your guitar and claiming it's your own song. This is why his claim that the wrap is different or the pin holds no weight.

2) Again I feel a true artist would not want to come close to the line, if they have ego and confidence they will want to stand apart and not copy, no matter how much they think they can sell stolen designs. I am talking about design theft, not counterfeiting, we all know this was not an attempt at a counterfeit cue.

3) If the customer tells the cuemaker that he got the idea from another cue the cue maker should say "sorry" and move on or redesign it in his own style, again any cue maker worth his salt will not copy a cue. Go to Samsara and ask them to make a 4 point cue with slotted diamonds and a bushka ring and see what they say. Go ask Jerry McWorter to make a copy of the Celtic Prince, Ask Ernie (Ginacue) to make a Copy of Edwin Reye's torture cue, what do you think they will say. But if the customer brings the design in on a bar napkin and claims he came up with it then I can't blame the cue maker. I just think if you want a SW style cue buy the Southwest, cost or wait are not excuses that cut it in my book, if you like that design you should reward the person who came up with it.

4) DPK did not teach Jerry the SW design, he taught him construction techniques. Early DPK cues didn't have 6 points (3 high, 3 low) they were plane cues. The SW style (points/ring work) was a design that the shop came up with. Also David was in the shop, this would be like Jim White making Mottey style cues, he is part of the shop, if he leaves the shop and goes on his own I think he will continue to make cues that are in that style, yet not exact copies.

Hope that answered most of the questions.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

2 things, first of all it's too bad you can't afford a Bushka, not my fault, you are not entitled to own one, get over it, it's not one of your God given rights to own something. I am sure you can't afford a Lamborghini either, does that mean you should be able to buy a VW Bug and weld on Countach fenders so it looks the same? ( I know I can't spell)

The second thing is you represented it as a copy, you are only trying to back track now because of the back lash. Your post heading was all about how this cue was made as a copy of the last Bushka and now you are trying to say it was inspired, you are a weasel. Stand behind your original words and stop trying to weasel out.

I think you do see the harm, I really hope you do understand that I am talking about stealing designs and I hope now you understand that it is something that is wrong and shouldn't be done. If it's your idea or not or if the cue is well built or not aren't part of this issue IMO. Neither is the fact that the guy is dead alive a legend or a bum.

Jim