This is one weakness of layered tips. Traditional tips can't have this problem because they don't have layers of glued leather. It's one less variable. One less potential problem. You can trim a mushroom, you can't trim the glaze rings.
Layered Tip Hype
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
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This is one weakness of layered tips. Traditional tips can't have this problem because they don't have layers of glued leather. It's one less variable. One less potential problem. You can trim a mushroom, you can't trim the glaze rings.
:wink: You'll just have to wait and see. Next one isn't going to be a rant, but will pose a good question.
Elk Master is a brand of tip made by the Tweeten Fibre Co., the same company that also makes Le Pro, Triangle, Triumph, Royal Oak, and a couple other brands.
Dudley tips are made by the Mueller Recreational Products Company. These are a "milk dud" tip made by soaking a tip in a milk product and then compressing it to make it harder. I believe Mueller uses Elk Master tips to make their Dudley tips.
I've tried a lot of tips. I have really enjoyed Triangles, Moori's, Everests, and good old Le Pros. I find that the quality of the install is nearly as important as the tip itself. There are steps that can be taken to dramatically reduce the mushrooming of any tip. This is why for the past several years I have only had one person install my tips: ME. Overall, here is my experience:
1) Moori's are extremely consistent. Every one I had (that was installed properly) played pretty much the same. No problems at all. I take care of my tip. I never let it glaze over, since I use a fine product called *chalk* on each shot. I have a little tool I've made by chopping a PVC tube in half the long way, so it creates a nice curve. I use the end of the pipe, where it expands into a larger diameter. This gives me a nice dual radius tool. I place 120 grit sand paper in there and give maybe a turn or two on the tip every few times I play. Keeps a slightly rough edge on the surface-I never have problems holding chalk. I have had several LePro's that were simply duds. Just bad tips. However I have also had some that were amazing. Sort of a crapshoot. Triangles are more consistent, but can easily get a bit mushy. Overall I think the edge in consistency goes with the layerd tips.
2) The cost difference is totally insignificant to me. Since I install my own tips, you are basically comparing maybe $0.20 on the low end to about $15 on the high end for a tip. Over the 8-16 months that a tip can last me, this cost is not at all worth considering.
3) I have never selected a tip based on "how much spin it produces". Who would? I use my stroke to determine this, not the tip. I sincerely doubt any tip can produce a significant difference in spin over a different kind.
4) I select tips based on the feel of the hit. For me, there is something semi-magical about the way a Moori tip compresses and releases. I love the feeling-it gives me the sense that I can control my speed and spin more accurately, and that I have a more intimate connection to it. I tend to favor tips that produce a crisp feel. I agree that layered tips would not be so great for someone that likes a soft hit.
5) Softer tips mushroom more than harder ones. Single layerd tips mushroom more than layered ones. This has been my experience. However, all I mean by this is that after the first, say, 500 balls you hit, the tip mushrooms. Then I trim it and in most cases that's it, its all set form there. I used to use WB brand black water buffalo tips for my break cue. This is a fantastic single layer tip that works very well for breaking. This tip, and Sumos, which are very similar, mushroom like crazy. But again, this goes away after the tip compresses some. You can avoid a lot of this by compressing the tip before installing. What I do is before I do the final trim on the tip, I bang it into the metal end of my lathe. This is basically a very heavy block of steel. With the tip glued on and partially shaped, I hit the end of the lathe (holding only the shaft) as if I were hitting a ball fairly hard. I hit it about 200 times. This takes about 2 or 3 minutes. After this, I almost never have a tip mushroom at all. If I do, I don't care, because I own a lathe and just trim it down. Before I owned a lathe, it was a little less convenient, because I had to give it back to my tip guy to trim. Still, for the 8-16 months a tip lasts, this consideration is very low on my list.
6) All tips feel better (to me) when trimmed to about medium height. Really tall tips seem to create more cueball squirt and what seems like less accuracy as a result. I have trouble playing as well with a really tall tip.
Anyway, that is what I have to offer on the subject. Hope it helps.
KMRUNOUT
1) Moori's are extremely consistent. Every one I had (that was installed properly) played pretty much the same. No problems at all. I take care of my tip. I never let it glaze over, since I use a fine product called *chalk* on each shot. I have a little tool I've made by chopping a PVC tube in half the long way, so it creates a nice curve. I use the end of the pipe, where it expands into a larger diameter. This gives me a nice dual radius tool. I place 120 grit sand paper in there and give maybe a turn or two on the tip every few times I play. Keeps a slightly rough edge on the surface-I never have problems holding chalk. I have had several LePro's that were simply duds. Just bad tips. However I have also had some that were amazing. Sort of a crapshoot. Triangles are more consistent, but can easily get a bit mushy. Overall I think the edge in consistency goes with the layerd tips.
2) The cost difference is totally insignificant to me. Since I install my own tips, you are basically comparing maybe $0.20 on the low end to about $15 on the high end for a tip. Over the 8-16 months that a tip can last me, this cost is not at all worth considering.
3) I have never selected a tip based on "how much spin it produces". Who would? I use my stroke to determine this, not the tip. I sincerely doubt any tip can produce a significant difference in spin over a different kind.
4) I select tips based on the feel of the hit. For me, there is something semi-magical about the way a Moori tip compresses and releases. I love the feeling-it gives me the sense that I can control my speed and spin more accurately, and that I have a more intimate connection to it. I tend to favor tips that produce a crisp feel. I agree that layered tips would not be so great for someone that likes a soft hit.
5) Softer tips mushroom more than harder ones. Single layerd tips mushroom more than layered ones. This has been my experience. However, all I mean by this is that after the first, say, 500 balls you hit, the tip mushrooms. Then I trim it and in most cases that's it, its all set form there. I used to use WB brand black water buffalo tips for my break cue. This is a fantastic single layer tip that works very well for breaking. This tip, and Sumos, which are very similar, mushroom like crazy. But again, this goes away after the tip compresses some. You can avoid a lot of this by compressing the tip before installing. What I do is before I do the final trim on the tip, I bang it into the metal end of my lathe. This is basically a very heavy block of steel. With the tip glued on and partially shaped, I hit the end of the lathe (holding only the shaft) as if I were hitting a ball fairly hard. I hit it about 200 times. This takes about 2 or 3 minutes. After this, I almost never have a tip mushroom at all. If I do, I don't care, because I own a lathe and just trim it down. Before I owned a lathe, it was a little less convenient, because I had to give it back to my tip guy to trim. Still, for the 8-16 months a tip lasts, this consideration is very low on my list.
6) All tips feel better (to me) when trimmed to about medium height. Really tall tips seem to create more cueball squirt and what seems like less accuracy as a result. I have trouble playing as well with a really tall tip.
Anyway, that is what I have to offer on the subject. Hope it helps.
KMRUNOUT
Actually, and I HATE that I have lost this photo, the glue rings on a layered tip are really inconsequential and in fact act as small ridges to hold even more chalk. I had a great macro photo that showed this in astounding detail back when I sold Instroke tips.
A properly chalked tip will not miscue. This talk of glaze rings is the sort of "hype" you are ranting against.
If layered tips are so bad then why do a lot of top professional players use them? And why do they continue to use them?
I mean surely they aren't susceptible to the "kool aid" effect when it's their income on the line?
I really do think that many people just have a lot of assumptions about what is going on when the tip hits the ball. They have a certain feeling and they develop a "theory" of why they have that feeling. That theory may or may not be right but it's certainly in most cases not based on anything other than subjective experience.
I wish that there was a way to collate the data from the past 15 or so years with a simple chart showing the major event and the tip that the winner was using. I am fairly sure that the trend will be that most of the best players are using some sort of layered tip.
OR some sort of MODIFIED single layer tip such as Milk Dud.
It is my understanding that the reason people precompress, soak in milk, dip in glue, brush with cat urine, etc... is that they are looking for some form of consistency from tip to tip.
The very best layered tips have cocentric rings that all hold chalk equally well in my experience.
I have played pool for money and won using a phenolic tip which was not roughed up - just chalk. There isn't anything harder or more "glazed". I have proven to many folks in live demos that one can get great spin using the phenolic tip.
I just think that anyone who is blaming the glue rings is not chalking enough. You can fuzz up a layered tip the same way you can a single layer tip. You can dimple it the same and dress it the same.
I would be willing to bet anyone on this board that if we set up a shot with 1.5 tips of spin and we take a layered tip and single layer tip and chalk each one between shots that neither tip will miscue in 200 shots. I have never done this experiement but I am confident in it.
Now you might be tempted to say so what? What about how long the tip is playable with one application of chalk? That's a good question and one that no serious player who should be chalking on every shot should ever ask.
Because if we learn anything from the Austrian high speed videos it's that tips seem to lose a LOT of chalk upon impact.
So don't blame the tip because you didn't chalk it.
JB, you know I love ya, man, but if you've never heard the " (insert favorite layered tip) puts more spin on the ball" crap before then you've had your ears closed and eyes shut. I've heard that so many times it makes my head spin.....no pun intended. I agree with just about everything the OP posted here.
MULLY
although I do use Moori tips, just because I like them, not because I think they are magical
MULLY
although I do use Moori tips, just because I like them, not because I think they are magical
Oh sure I hear people saying it. Tate said it in this thread and he is a very high level player.
I was just meaning that sellers don't say it, not to my knowledge they don't.
Of course I might very well look back on my own ads from six years ago and find that I said it
My point with the response was that if we accept Bolo's point that it's NOT SO because he says it's not so in his experience then by the same token we need to accept that it IS SO in other people's experience. Or in other words it's all a matter of perception. One guy hates Everest and the next guy swears by them.
I gave up trying to sell cues based on their characteristics more than 15 years ago. Now if someone wants to buy a cue and asks me how it hits I say, I don't know, you try it. Same thing with tips. It's a personal thing.
The OP seems to think it's all snake-oil and hype though and that's not the case at all. Tip makers, the serious ones like Moori, and Kamui, and the guy I was getting "Instroke" tips from, and Tiger, etc... put a LOT of effort into their products trying to make them as good as they possibly can.
Players can feel a difference even if they can't really explain what it is. Sure the placebo effect is probably pretty strong as well - who wants to spend $40 on a tip and install only to have it feel the same as the old $10 job? In Germany there is a saying that goes like this "a new broom always sweeps better". The meaning behind this is that people always have the EXPECTATION that the new thing is better than the old thing. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't but that doesn't mean the broom maker is trying to pull a fast one.
I am pretty confident that within certain parameters that there is not any one tip that "produces" more spin than another that is appreciable.
However I would be happy to allow Johhny Archer to have a draw shot contest against Rodney Morris and one them gets the Kmart special cue with whatever tip comes on it and the other one gets a normal cue with a normal tip. I am going to bet heavily against the guy who is playing with the Kmart special.
I agree that it's 90% in the stroke. But the tip HAS to play a part as well or we would all be using the same tip right now.
Theres a few variations on dudleys or just a elk presed on a vise fr a few minutes works great fr me , the black kamui i tried was soft bt after a wjile it started to play like a med
Well I tried cutting the Kumai black ss down to over half its size. I gotta say it has made a diffrence. The tip is playing much better now and feels better too.
Opinion on tips
Reading posts made here on tip opinions is pretty interesting from my point of view because they mirror what I have experienced with both tips and cues. I have bought and used too many of both
Have found many answers and still have questions but would trade both for my money back, lol. One question is if layered tips are better why would pros use anything else that could potentially reduce their income? Another is why do they make layered tips with so many layers when so many players say they play much better after cutting off half the layers? Have gone back to Triangles many times when I started having second thoughts about the latest layered tip I was using. Still, I remember how good some of the LePros played. Practice, lessons, and more practice got my game to where it is today (not implying it is good) but cue tips, cues, and the other gadgets is what keeps me entertained. Just can't wait until the next wonder tip and magic cue to put me in the winners circle!
Reading posts made here on tip opinions is pretty interesting from my point of view because they mirror what I have experienced with both tips and cues. I have bought and used too many of both
Have found many answers and still have questions but would trade both for my money back, lol. One question is if layered tips are better why would pros use anything else that could potentially reduce their income? Another is why do they make layered tips with so many layers when so many players say they play much better after cutting off half the layers? Have gone back to Triangles many times when I started having second thoughts about the latest layered tip I was using. Still, I remember how good some of the LePros played. Practice, lessons, and more practice got my game to where it is today (not implying it is good) but cue tips, cues, and the other gadgets is what keeps me entertained. Just can't wait until the next wonder tip and magic cue to put me in the winners circle!
When u have small tip it plays much better i dnt know why but it does , just chalk up and it doesnt matter what tip u have im sure u guys have run out even usinf phenolic tip lol i kno i have
Thanks Scott, I may stand corrected, although I wonder if those studies were done on someone with a really good stroke and follow-through. If someone with a poor stroke shoots a shot perhaps with a soft tip the difference in time of contact will make a big difference? I have a bunch of cues here in the shop with various tips on them and when people who are mediocre pool players shoot with softer tips they are able to put more draw on the ball, so there must be some reason for that....