"League Players LOL"
- Thread starter bankshot76
- Start date
I see the issue on league play as very clear cut. I got my start in league play, I still play in a few leagues to keep up with friends I have made in them and there are a few competitive leagues worth playing. They are especially valuable to players like myself who are not huge gamblers. There are always side games going on during league play, so the argument that you are there for 4-5 hours to play 4-5 games is not really valid.
I have begun to get frustrated with APA league play but absolutely love my TAP league and will never drop it. All leagues are different and all serve a purpose in the pool community. In my opinion, the more people we have playing on a nightly basis the better it is for the game overall... period. Pool is on the decline, unfortunately, and we need all the players (good or bad, serious or not) we can get.
Here is how I see it, my 6 rules for how to approach leagues
1. If you enjoy playing in a league, don't worry about what other people think.
2. If you don't enjoy playing in a league, then don't play.
3. If you don't play in a league, don't worry about the people who do.
4. If you haven't played in a league, don't knock it until you've tried it.
5. If you have played in a league but hated it, allow other people to come to their own conclusions about league play and only express your opinion if asked.
6. Sandbagging is not fun and goes against the spirit of the game, there is no situation where sandbagging is tolerable or worth it. If sandbagging was eliminated, league play would be much more fun.
I have begun to get frustrated with APA league play but absolutely love my TAP league and will never drop it. All leagues are different and all serve a purpose in the pool community. In my opinion, the more people we have playing on a nightly basis the better it is for the game overall... period. Pool is on the decline, unfortunately, and we need all the players (good or bad, serious or not) we can get.
Here is how I see it, my 6 rules for how to approach leagues
1. If you enjoy playing in a league, don't worry about what other people think.
2. If you don't enjoy playing in a league, then don't play.
3. If you don't play in a league, don't worry about the people who do.
4. If you haven't played in a league, don't knock it until you've tried it.
5. If you have played in a league but hated it, allow other people to come to their own conclusions about league play and only express your opinion if asked.
6. Sandbagging is not fun and goes against the spirit of the game, there is no situation where sandbagging is tolerable or worth it. If sandbagging was eliminated, league play would be much more fun.
I play league for one reason... it is serious competition against new players..
I have played people... good shooters... in league that I would have never had the opportunity to play otherwise..
in my part of the world.. if you don't play league you can't play..
I play in the exact same league that spawned SVB... you know him.. the bar banger on TV who just keeps winning..
all leagues are not created equal..
my league is sanctioned by the VNEA but we are only required to play under their specific rules.. during major tournaments..
the rules for all weekly matches are voted on by team captains during the yearly organizational meeting..
for example this year our league decided to eliminate the handicap system and play all games even..
here in St. Peter MN... there are 4 leagues ... one handicapped fun league.. one non handicapped fun league... one handicapped serious league.. and one non handicapped serious league..
if your team DOMINATES in any league you will be moved up..
the fun leagues are drunken friends having fun...and there is nothing wrong with that.. at least they are playing pool...and it is a rare league player who doesn't own a cue ( supporting the industry)
the serious leagues are HARD CORE... you have three choices.. run out, play a lock up safe, or lose..
if you think league players are all bangers.... come play me
I have played people... good shooters... in league that I would have never had the opportunity to play otherwise..
in my part of the world.. if you don't play league you can't play..
I play in the exact same league that spawned SVB... you know him.. the bar banger on TV who just keeps winning..
all leagues are not created equal..
my league is sanctioned by the VNEA but we are only required to play under their specific rules.. during major tournaments..
the rules for all weekly matches are voted on by team captains during the yearly organizational meeting..
for example this year our league decided to eliminate the handicap system and play all games even..
here in St. Peter MN... there are 4 leagues ... one handicapped fun league.. one non handicapped fun league... one handicapped serious league.. and one non handicapped serious league..
if your team DOMINATES in any league you will be moved up..
the fun leagues are drunken friends having fun...and there is nothing wrong with that.. at least they are playing pool...and it is a rare league player who doesn't own a cue ( supporting the industry)
the serious leagues are HARD CORE... you have three choices.. run out, play a lock up safe, or lose..
if you think league players are all bangers.... come play me
Rep to you sir!
Da Bank said:
Neil said:
You call league players "you league players" and say that league play "hurts pool".
You really give no real reasons as to how it hurts pool. I am referring to the pain/agony/suffering/damage part. How does it harm the hobby/game/sport of pool?
You state that most league players don't play other than league night. Okay so how many of the millions that play each week play more than once. Not many. Most not even weekly. Do they "hurt pool" as well.
You upset that leagues don't do enough to promote pool. Do you say this about the YMCA and the Little League? What about their players? Upset that Tommy and Billy play soccer and X-box rather than drill themselves on the correct positioning during a rundown? Upset that they play to play with friends or to get laid? Upset that they have zero desire to play baseball for a living but rather be Doctors and astronauts?
You don't like that they leagues don't give enough back (others hate this as well). Do you get upset at the furniture store? What about the jewelry store? or the dog food company? or the oil guys? What about the flower lady on Valentines Day? How about the soda companies for their $2 flavored water or actual tap water in a bottle?
Leagues are businesses and there is nothing that says they are supposed to cut profits. What other businesses do this? Fuel went sky high and so did their profits. You really think they even considered giving back and lowering their margins. Its business.
You also state that the only good players that play league are their strictly for an ego boost!! Yet you say you don't look down at league players. Pick a side and trust me 99% here know which side that is.
You think that because I play league that ..
1- I am likely a once a week banger that is somehow hurting the pool world just by playing a game and having fun.
2- that I play about 4-5 games a night that I "play league". I didnt even realize that there was a quota!!
3- That because I play good that I am ONLY there for the ego boost from being around low level scumbag drunks that cant hold a candle to a real and true pool player.
4- that I am a waste because I dont spend dedicated time trying to use my night out with the boys as a stepping stone towards me playing on a fictional pro pool tour. I guess everyone can play pro level!!?
5- that I am the Bane (not bain) or scum of the pool room or rather its nemesis. That somehow "oe the league player" coming in and spending a little cash one day per week is BAD.
6-that I am merely a shadow of what REAL POOL is
Now you also state that you wonder why league players get bent. Probably because you look down at anyone that does not want to do what you feel REAL POOL is.
You probably hate players that laugh and have fun while playing. You probably think that we should all be down at the hall NOT putting money in the jukebox, NOT buying beer, NOT banging balls with a buddy but rather practising quietly only nodding at guys as they walk by (of course they need to wait for the correct timing and angle to pass the table).
Pool is a game and is fun to play. Most people play less than once a week. Most dont take it that serious. 99.9 % dont even think about it being a stepping stone to "something better" (whatever that mioght be).
90% of all people that don't play pool can't name a top male living Pro.
I just dont get how you can think that people playing a game for fun and spending money are hurting anything. How can leagues that attract tens of thousands of people hurt the game?
You are upset that Archer is not rolling off the tongue of 90% of league players. I would bet that a higher % of league players know Johnny Archer is than of regular non league playing pool players.
Now if your wondering about me then here I am
1- I play APA right now 2 nights a week (8ball and Masters)
used to play BCA but the drive and timing was wrong.
2- I play to a B+ or low A level. I don't think that I am anything special at at all.
3- I refuse to give up my friends because I play a game better than them.
4- I like the idea of team pool and believe that if pool as a sport has a future it will be in team play.
5- I dont look down on anyone due to skill or go to league looking for an ego boost.
6- I will gamble and will play for fun.
7- I do not hurt pool or anything directly related to it by playing and spending money.
8- I play once or twice a week other than league night. Some weeks I dont and there is nothing wrong with that.
9- My playing pool is not a stepping stone
10- I know who Johnny Archer is. Earl Strickland also. Actually I organized a Night with the two of them for about 35 people. Some knew who they were and some didnt. 90% of the attendees were casual pool players. 100% enjoyed themselves. Not once did I look down at anyone because they didnt know who the guys were. They were there for fun and were being introduced to them. It wasnt a free night but rather a
$100 a person night. I guess these league guys didnt get the memo.
11- I disagree with anyone that looks down on another person because they cant perform a task quite as good as others.
Once I was told by a friend that I shouldn't hang out with guys that were my friends but were bangers. Now I don't hang out much with him.
There are good things and bad things to league play. Its not for everyone.
BUT it does not in any way hurt pool. There is ZERO damage done to the game.
Neil said:I don't know if you are referring to me or not. But I am one of those down on leagues. Let me start by saying that if you are for leagues and like that kind of pool, more power to you. What really gets me going is when people say that leagues are good for pool. THEY AREN'T! They are good for the bars and poolrooms that serve alcohol, and not much more than that.
Um, more people playing the game in an organized fashion with real rules has got to be good for the sport.
Do some good players play? Sure. It's a nice ego boost to be known as a player around a bunch of lower handicaps. Who doesn't like that kind of attention?
So you think that the only reason the good players play is for the ego boost of being the best among lower tier players? I suggest you go to Colorado then or some other very strong league area and you will find plenty of super strong players on league teams with other equally strong players. They do it for the competition.
But lets look at some points here. How much do you play in your league? 4-5 games tops. And how long are you there? About 4-5 hours? And that is called getting people to play pool? No, that's called getting bodies in the room. 90% of those league players ONLY play on league night.
I don't know where you get your stats at but in all the places I have lived the league players hang out at the pool room, they play several league nights, they come and practice before league begins, a lot of them stay and play when league ends. But even if they DID only play on league night I'd still maintain that 200,000 people participating in an organized pool activity under national rules once a week is better for the game of pool than those same 200,000 joining a bowling league instead.
They aren't really trying to get better. After all, if they get better, their handicap gets raised, then their team gets busted up. Don't want that to happen! So keep the handicaps down. There's no reward to practice during the week. To get better. To actually become a pool player. It's actually discouraged!
Well see now you are thinking of JUST the APA. And even in just the APA you would be wrong. The APA encourages their members to get better (no surprise because that is what feeds the business model) and the membership tries to get better. I have been a part of clinics put on by APA operators that were well attended. I have coached many APA members who wanted to get better. And I am pretty sure that all the instructors in the land could count APA members as students. I don't know of any single person I have ever met that actually "discouraged" their teammates from getting better or learning. Not to say it doesn't happen but I have never actually seen it.
Now, I will give you this- they are good for the cue dealers and 'gotta have this new item' dealers. They are probably the bulk of their sales. On the other hand, they are the bain of the poolrooms. Very, very seldom wil you see a league player actually in a pool room practicing or playing . It does happen, but rarely. The percentage is amazingly low. When the leagues should be promoting pool, and getting people to practice and involved in the game.
You say league players are the bane of poolrooms? People who hold down steady jobs and frequent your establishment steadily and who run up tabs when they are there are the bane of poolrooms? I thought the "poolplayer" who only comes in on tournament night to get free table time, drinks icewater, and leaves with the $80 first prize he took off the league players was the bane of the poolroom. Seriously, I know one poolroom owner who gave his local league operator an all expenses paid cruise because she moved all her teams to his establishment. League players are the steady rock that a lot of poolrooms depend on.
You make a statement that you very seldom see a league player in the room practicing or playing (probably you mean matching up). I have to ask how you know who the league players are? Do they get LEAGUE PLAYER tattooed on their forehead so they can easily be identified when not seen on league night. I'd say that most of the people I meet in poolrooms not on league night play on some league.
Leagues have their place, but they could and should be doing much, much more to promote the actual game. Not discouraging it. It should be a stepping stone to better things, and for the most part, it's not. Sure, the occasional person will take to the game, and progress farther. But that is the exception, and it should be the rule.
So you don't think leagues are good for pool but you think that they should be doing more? Lets recap what they leagues do to see if any of it is a stepping stone for better things.
Leagues provide an organized and competitive activity for more than 200,000 people on a weekly basis. On a frequent basis they provide citywide, regional, state and national championship events for both teams and single players in various divisions. Leagues provide competitive venues in both 8 and 9 ball. Leagues provide access to instruction through clinics, exhibitions, websites, and newsletters. Leagues bring a wide variety of people to the game in a fun social environment. Leagues provide an avenue for higher level competition for those who desire that.
Leagues encourage people to purchase equipment which in turn allows equipment makers to do things like sponsor tours and events for "real poolplayers". Leagues encourage bar owners to get more savvy about pool and frequently they invest in or insist on better equipment. Those same bar owners then become active in recruiting more patrons to join pool leagues.
And I am sure that you can think of much more positive that leagues do. Of course they "could" do more to promote pool as a sport but then again so can each and every one of us.
And, no, I don't have the answers to 'fix' it. I have some, but they have been mentioned on here many times. It just irks me that so many think league pool is actually what pool is about. It's only a shadow of real pool IMHO.
It's an aspect of the sport. What is real pool about? Performance under pressure? Try playing in the BCA Nationals and you will find out about performance under pressure. Is pool about playing perfectly against top notch players? I won a BCA bar table event in Colorado against some very very tough players. That event was put on by the league operator and attended by some real heavyweight amateur players. I was a member of a team that took 8th place out of 700+ teams. We came from a deficit of 10 - 5 in a race to 13 to win 13:11 in order to advance to the 8th place round. The other team was heavily favored to win the event. Try telling my teammates that they aren't real players.
It would be great if there were a solid path from being an APA2 to becoming a professional player. It would be awesome of there were tighter integration between the non-league part of the pool world and the "real player" side. I think leagues could flat out OWN pool from top to bottom if they chose to. And some people are working on this right now.
'Be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it' is how the Chinese proverb goes. They might go from being a shadow to being the sun.
But be that as it may, leagues have kept pool alive in the United States. That seems to be pretty good for pool as I see it.
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The way I'm seeing this entire argument is that leagues vary a lot from region to region and you can't make blanket statements about them.
Some are positive experiences, and some are drunkfests.
To try to sum up all leagues in one post is way too "broadbrush".
Some are positive experiences, and some are drunkfests.
To try to sum up all leagues in one post is way too "broadbrush".
The best league I ever played in was a Valley league in Wisconsin.
I did not think it was structured very fair, but it was a great time. One of the things that the APA gets bashed over is the 23 rule. There wasnt a handicap level rule here. We had a few teams with all 4 members being master level players. They were fun and the nights ended quickly when at least 4 of the 8 matches you did not get to play (just rack). When it was all said and done it was a huge steak dinner at the banquet. Lots of cash prizes and trophies.. ETC...
I did not think it was structured very fair, but it was a great time. One of the things that the APA gets bashed over is the 23 rule. There wasnt a handicap level rule here. We had a few teams with all 4 members being master level players. They were fun and the nights ended quickly when at least 4 of the 8 matches you did not get to play (just rack). When it was all said and done it was a huge steak dinner at the banquet. Lots of cash prizes and trophies.. ETC...
Or you can do what my team does and have team members pay a player $2 for every break and run.JoeyA said:I'm moving to Lebanon! SWEET
JoeyA
My team does that and we happily pay out.
Neil said:
It would be nice if league was a stepping stone to bigger things and for some people it is . But it is like the child that goes to school or the adult that goes to college they will only get out of it what they choose to get out of it . For some it is a stepping stone to bigger things for others it is all they want to do a social event. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. nother you or I say will ever change that.... Still leagues bring the game to many people that may never know it otherwise. In a game that is constantly looking for ways to introduce itsself to new players I believe leagues do a amazing job of that.
How can you blame a owner of an and establishment that does not really care if your not thier? If you don't spend any money in his/her place other then table time . I'm probably not the player you are but I understand that a owner needs to make money in order to stay in business. And table time alone will not pay all the bills. I dont drink either but do understand that I need to pitch in financially if I expect my pool hall or bar to remain open. I often pay for extra table time I don't play and order something to eat and soda or tea anything to help pitch in a little towards the cost of keeping the room running. I also tip the help to keep them on my good side...lol...
I understand that your idea of leagues is not the same as mine . We're different people with different opinions. And what you believe and how you conduct yourself in the game must be working for you. As I understand you play a good game. But I'm just as sure that leagues work just as well for others to make them better ... And they do introduce newbies to our game that we both love...
Well I better go for now ... Scott Lee will be here in less then 2 hours this is one league player looking to get better.
i've already replied to this but i can't help myself. this all sounds like a lot of b*tching and moaning about not being able to shoot on a given night or being around people who drink to much. and the leagues not promoting the sport, players being bangers and not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground.
all i can say is get over yourselves. if you don't like the leagues fine. but they do help not hurt the sport. FACT. period. more people know what we do because of those leagues. i don't care if girl or guy x can't tell you charlie williams from charlie chan and i don't care if they only go one night a week. there's a chance - a CHANCE that one out of ten might gain more interest and that helps.
what the hell do most of you do to promote the sport? go out and lecture the youngsters on the finer points of one pocket or 14:1? give free lessons to attract the new breed? or do you just sit here and bi*ch on line that you hate leagues. and who cares if they keep most of the money? no one in pool in the us is giving out huge paydays. so let those of us who want to shoot in them do it. stop crying.
and if you don't like to be around drunks you better start playing on line games. becuase they are on the golf courses in the poker rooms and in the pool halls. grow up. if someone is completely out of hand tell the room manager and have them removed if that doesn't work use a cel phone and call the cops. nothing wakes up a bar staff like one of them being arrested for serving more booze to someone who is visually impaired.
and as far as us league players being bangers i can ask three guys here in my area if they'd mind me posting their names and if they don't i will. i guarantee they'll hold their own with most people short of professionals. i myself play at a strong b speed and have a whole list of people here in GA and back in FL and CT and NY where i have lived in the past who shoot my speed or better and they all play or have played APA.
sanbagging, did i see someone mention sandbagging being a problem? what the hell do you guys who gamble do? you all hide speed to get a better spot. so stop bi*ching about people doing it to get an advantage in league. it's a part of the game that is not going away as much as it sucks.
and if you can't get a table on league night go to the next room. or join a team - suck it up. enough already.
all i can say is get over yourselves. if you don't like the leagues fine. but they do help not hurt the sport. FACT. period. more people know what we do because of those leagues. i don't care if girl or guy x can't tell you charlie williams from charlie chan and i don't care if they only go one night a week. there's a chance - a CHANCE that one out of ten might gain more interest and that helps.
what the hell do most of you do to promote the sport? go out and lecture the youngsters on the finer points of one pocket or 14:1? give free lessons to attract the new breed? or do you just sit here and bi*ch on line that you hate leagues. and who cares if they keep most of the money? no one in pool in the us is giving out huge paydays. so let those of us who want to shoot in them do it. stop crying.
and if you don't like to be around drunks you better start playing on line games. becuase they are on the golf courses in the poker rooms and in the pool halls. grow up. if someone is completely out of hand tell the room manager and have them removed if that doesn't work use a cel phone and call the cops. nothing wakes up a bar staff like one of them being arrested for serving more booze to someone who is visually impaired.
and as far as us league players being bangers i can ask three guys here in my area if they'd mind me posting their names and if they don't i will. i guarantee they'll hold their own with most people short of professionals. i myself play at a strong b speed and have a whole list of people here in GA and back in FL and CT and NY where i have lived in the past who shoot my speed or better and they all play or have played APA.
sanbagging, did i see someone mention sandbagging being a problem? what the hell do you guys who gamble do? you all hide speed to get a better spot. so stop bi*ching about people doing it to get an advantage in league. it's a part of the game that is not going away as much as it sucks.
and if you can't get a table on league night go to the next room. or join a team - suck it up. enough already.
Rich R. said:
Does not apply in my part of the country. In South Carolina, North Carolina, and Georgia, commercial billiard rooms are few and far between. And, I know of none that do not serve alcohol. Most league play takes place in bars. The problems I have seen, however, have nothing to do with drunks. It's an attitude, more than anything else.
The rooms in New York State were alcohol free until the '90s, by the way.
jrt30004 said:
I've done a lot, compared to most people. Taught it, started in-house leagues, played in others, offered help and had it tossed back in my face, tried to give people in this area an alternative to apa and bca and got stoned by the room owner, shared magazine reprints of great stuff, suggested tools to improve, etc, etc. One year I got an extra set to tickets to the BC Open in order to show some folks who weren't die hard pool fans how the pros played. At the first session, the guy I had brought turned to me and said: "I could beat these guys!". He couldn't run two in a row. Good grief!!!
What the hell have you done???
Take a break.
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Neil
It sounds as if you have a bad pool room there and owners that are not to bright. Not a sin but it really sucks if one out three places to play isn't very good.
I brought up the Y and LL because they are very similiar. No one is shunned from most Y leagues or LL leagues. Everyone will be placed on a team and allowed to play. Pool leagues offer the same thing for adults which is a bit unusual. You do not have to be good to play pool or to play regularly in a league.
As for the business comparisions they are 100% spot on. The APA, BCA TAP etc etc etc are all businesses and their bottum line is drive sales and profits. Do we as pool players wish that they gave more money out or sponsored a tour or event..... sure but I know that they don't have to do so and really wouldnt be any better off if they did. It appears to be a very good business if you can get it going and keep players playing.
People playing leagues fill bars and pool rooms nightly. The cars attract others in the parking lots, their money goes to the owners, beer distributors, food service providers etc. They spend money on cues, gloves, cases and anything else you can buy for pool.
That can not be bad.
I think you believe that all people are going to be like yourself and me. That they are going to go to the pool room 3-5 nights a week. That everyone would want the tables crisp and the music low. That they would spend WAY more money on a hobby than is sane.
The truth is that we are the oddballs. We are the ones that most others look at and laugh or chuckle. We not only spend hundreds on a cue but we have more than one. We will spend a grand on a piece of wood NEVER to play with it. We spend hours and hours practicing while missing the same shots and getting marginally better.
The majority of people that play pool do so once or twice a month. Most nowadays have cues and bring them. They come to the rooms with their significant others and with friends for fun.
League players fall into this category.
I also think that your league area is different than most. The players in leagues generally play more and do come in and practice. Not always or even as much as they should if they are trying to improve but they do play. League operators can make or break a league. Some good players play and some dont. I think its funny that many are interested in whats going on but won't allow themselves to join or be a part. Its like they will break the old school code or something.
Hopefully you get a better pool room in your area. A place that appreciates your business. A place that will keep up the tables and stay in business for a while.
Keep hitting them and try to remember that league and pool in general is different all across the country.
It sounds as if you have a bad pool room there and owners that are not to bright. Not a sin but it really sucks if one out three places to play isn't very good.
I brought up the Y and LL because they are very similiar. No one is shunned from most Y leagues or LL leagues. Everyone will be placed on a team and allowed to play. Pool leagues offer the same thing for adults which is a bit unusual. You do not have to be good to play pool or to play regularly in a league.
As for the business comparisions they are 100% spot on. The APA, BCA TAP etc etc etc are all businesses and their bottum line is drive sales and profits. Do we as pool players wish that they gave more money out or sponsored a tour or event..... sure but I know that they don't have to do so and really wouldnt be any better off if they did. It appears to be a very good business if you can get it going and keep players playing.
People playing leagues fill bars and pool rooms nightly. The cars attract others in the parking lots, their money goes to the owners, beer distributors, food service providers etc. They spend money on cues, gloves, cases and anything else you can buy for pool.
That can not be bad.
I think you believe that all people are going to be like yourself and me. That they are going to go to the pool room 3-5 nights a week. That everyone would want the tables crisp and the music low. That they would spend WAY more money on a hobby than is sane.
The truth is that we are the oddballs. We are the ones that most others look at and laugh or chuckle. We not only spend hundreds on a cue but we have more than one. We will spend a grand on a piece of wood NEVER to play with it. We spend hours and hours practicing while missing the same shots and getting marginally better.
The majority of people that play pool do so once or twice a month. Most nowadays have cues and bring them. They come to the rooms with their significant others and with friends for fun.
League players fall into this category.
I also think that your league area is different than most. The players in leagues generally play more and do come in and practice. Not always or even as much as they should if they are trying to improve but they do play. League operators can make or break a league. Some good players play and some dont. I think its funny that many are interested in whats going on but won't allow themselves to join or be a part. Its like they will break the old school code or something.
Hopefully you get a better pool room in your area. A place that appreciates your business. A place that will keep up the tables and stay in business for a while.
Keep hitting them and try to remember that league and pool in general is different all across the country.
frankncali said:
I know when there is a televised event on ESPN, the APA is the commercial whore during pool events. I dunno who gets that money or if the tour, the network, and or event recieve any of that sponsorship money, but just giving an observation. Dunno how exactly those sponsorship dollars are distributed or how much the amount actually is. Not trying to argue or anything, but just from what I see when I watch televised pool.
-Kyle