Learning different strokes in pool

[12squared]

"A slip-stroke is the shortest and earliest of strokes! When your grip hand closes on the butt your stroke is at that point completed."
the Beard[/QUOTE]

Hi Freddy,

I bought your book "Banking with the Beard" and loved it. Thanks for writing it. I have also been a big fan of your commentating on Accustats. You're both informative and entertaining. But I'm having a hard time with your description of the "slip stroke". If you're uncomfortable about this thread, I totally respect your silence. My email is ebilliards@comcast.net if you would like to take this offline, but I'm sure the readers would be interested.

I have played 3-cushion for many years and have had a natural slip stroke up until the last 5 years (no place to play 3C so I wanted to learn how to pocket balls, not just do stuff w/the cue ball). I also have known and worked with Allen Gilbert, one of the premier 3-cushion players this country has produced since Hoppe days (Sang Lee was not produced in this country, rest his soul), who also had a slip stroke. It has always appeared to me that the slip stroke allowed me more cue control w/a longer follow through when needed. It was similar to holding the cue a little further back for more power or a longer stroke if needed, but with more control at set up because my stroke arm was set tighter to my body. My grip, once tightened after the "slip", could be adjusted based on what I felt was needed for the shot at hand. In other words, I didn't feel the "slip stroke" inhibited my delivering the different type of strokes dicussed in this thread or that my stroke was completed after the grip hand tightened, it just set may hand further back on the cue before delivery. Does any of this make sense?

Freddy, I really respect your knowledge of pool and stroke and expect that this is a semantics thing, but I would love to hear more. Of course, this is exactly what you were trying to avoid, sorry.

Strokingly yours, Dave

 

[biblewriter]

BTW...don't be too concerned about leaking or divulging information. They won't make use of it, or, they'll just say you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

As for revealing secrets. Drivermaker is exactly right. No one listens. Poor fundamentals are the biggest reason players hit a plateau where further improvement becomes impossible, but few players think about changing their style to improve. All the drills and heavy practice in the world won't help when the delivery routine is fundamentally flawed.

Players rarely realize that flaws in their delivery and stance are the cause of their inconsistency.

There are more than seven distinct "strokes" that have been used by great players.

The Pendulum Style (incorrectly explained in almost every case I've seen) is the most common. The cue is swung more or less like a pendulum with variations in timing.

The "Piston Stroke" which is driven through the cue ball like the driver on a steam engine. This is the stroking method more or less used by the great snooker champion Joe Davis who held the snooker world at bay in for over 20 years.

Deadball Punch Stroke— This method mainly revolves around using "deadball action." This means hitting very close to center on the cue ball on most shots. Eliminating ball action and avoiding shots that require powerful draw, follow or english makes this an accurate controllable stroking style. In the right hands it is deadly.

Roger Conte, the great French Balkline and 3 Cushion champion explains SIX strokes in his book le Billiard Inconnu. Some of Conte's ideas solve delicate problems in playing shots.

The Short-Quick Stroke— Roger Conte explains this method of producing extreme spin and then dismisses it as bad form. Nonetheless, The Short-Quick Stroke is an effective way of generating more spin than you can otherwise get. Contrary to Conte's explanation The Short-Quick Stroke can be done with good form providing the cue is not jerked back.

The slip-stroke. The slip-stroke is a dangerous method because errors are amplified when the timing of the "slip" is off. Nevertheless, some players do exceptionally well using it.

The Sidearm Stroke— is almost always used by players who began playing when they were too young to reach the shots any other way. The difficulty with the sidearm stroke is delivering a straight thru delivery. According to expert witnesses Willie Hoppe and "Jake" Schaefer Jr. played with straight thru strokes in spite of their contrary delivery. (Herman Rambow said that Hoppe worked on a straight thru delivery for a few minutes every day.)

The fact that sidearm shooters have grown into their stroke enables them to compensate for fundamental flaws.

A sidearm shooter is likely to be a very strong player because of a lifelong playng career, not because of good form.

**********

All of these methods can add to their complexity by varying the length and timing of the stroke and intensity of the grip.

The fact that great players used some of these styles does not necessarily recommend them to others. Exceptionally coordinated people can overcome many flaws in a delivery style with pure talent (Efrin Reyes et al come to mind).

Watching some players to learn good form can be dangerous— the notorious "Pony" Rosen of Bensingers in Chicago was infamous for never lining up on the cue ball where he actually hit it. He would aim high and hit low, line up left and hit right. Pony was like a Hungarian acrobat in being able to play high speed pool this way. Imitating him would have been suicidal.

Although good players may use a particular style, that should not be a final recommendation for the utility of the method. Superior coordination can overcome many defects and drawbacks that become apparent with lesser players because of the loss of accuracy and control they tend to create.

The sidearm strokes of Willie Hoppe and Ralph Greenleaf are examples of poor form refined to championship levels. Hoppe claimed that his sidearm stroke was the secret of his championship ability (Nevermind that he had been playing from age 4 and had had a lot of champions coach him, Hoppe said that he was a "natural" player. Hoppe claimed to be a born champion.).

But when he began playing 3 cushion which requires much greater accuracy than balkline, Hoppe dropped his sidearm considerably. Also Hoppe played with an orthodox upper arm over the cue style when he shot left-handed, because by the time he learned to play off-handed at championship levels he was way too tall for a sidearm stance. There was no nonsense about trying to learn a left-handed sidearm stroke.
Biblewriter

 

[drivermaker]

As for revealing secrets. Drivermaker is exactly right. No one listens. Poor fundamentals are the biggest reason players hit a plateau where further improvement becomes impossible, but few players think about changing their style to improve. All the drills and heavy practice in the world won't help when the delivery routine is fundamentally flawed.

Players rarely realize that flaws in their delivery and stance are the cause of their inconsistency.

There are more than seven distinct "strokes" that have been used by great players.

The Pendulum Style (incorrectly explained in almost every case I've seen) is the most common. The cue is swung more or less like a pendulum with variations in timing.

The "Piston Stroke" which is driven through the cue ball like the driver on a steam engine. This is the stroking method more or less used by the great snooker champion Joe Davis who held the snooker world at bay in for over 20 years.

Deadball Punch Stroke— This method mainly revolves around using "deadball action." This means hitting very close to center on the cue ball on most shots. Eliminating ball action and avoiding shots that require powerful draw, follow or english makes this an accurate controllable stroking style. In the right hands it is deadly.

Roger Conte, the great French Balkline and 3 Cushion champion explains SIX strokes in his book le Billiard Inconnu. Some of Conte's ideas solve delicate problems in playing shots.

The Short-Quick Stroke— Roger Conte explains this method of producing extreme spin and then dismisses it as bad form. Nonetheless, The Short-Quick Stroke is an effective way of generating more spin than you can otherwise get. Contrary to Conte's explanation The Short-Quick Stroke can be done with good form providing the cue is not jerked back.

The slip-stroke. The slip-stroke is a dangerous method because errors are amplified when the timing of the "slip" is off. Nevertheless, some players do exceptionally well using it.

The Sidearm Stroke— is almost always used by players who began playing when they were too young to reach the shots any other way. The difficulty with the sidearm stroke is delivering a straight thru delivery. According to expert witnesses Willie Hoppe and "Jake" Schaefer Jr. played with straight thru strokes in spite of their contrary delivery. (Herman Rambow said that Hoppe worked on a straight thru delivery for a few minutes every day.)

The fact that sidearm shooters have grown into their stroke enables them to compensate for fundamental flaws.

A sidearm shooter is likely to be a very strong player because of a lifelong playng career, not because of good form.

**********

All of these methods can add to their complexity by varying the length and timing of the stroke and intensity of the grip.

The fact that great players used some of these styles does not necessarily recommend them to others. Exceptionally coordinated people can overcome many flaws in a delivery style with pure talent (Efrin Reyes et al come to mind).

Watching some players to learn good form can be dangerous— the notorious "Pony" Rosen of Bensingers in Chicago was infamous for never lining up on the cue ball where he actually hit it. He would aim high and hit low, line up left and hit right. Pony was like a Hungarian acrobat in being able to play high speed pool this way. Imitating him would have been suicidal.

Although good players may use a particular style, that should not be a final recommendation for the utility of the method. Superior coordination can overcome many defects and drawbacks that become apparent with lesser players because of the loss of accuracy and control they tend to create.

The sidearm strokes of Willie Hoppe and Ralph Greenleaf are examples of poor form refined to championship levels. Hoppe claimed that his sidearm stroke was the secret of his championship ability (Nevermind that he had been playing from age 4 and had had a lot of champions coach him, Hoppe said that he was a "natural" player. Hoppe claimed to be a born champion.).

But when he began playing 3 cushion which requires much greater accuracy than balkline, Hoppe dropped his sidearm considerably. Also Hoppe played with an orthodox upper arm over the cue style when he shot left-handed, because by the time he learned to play off-handed at championship levels he was way too tall for a sidearm stance. There was no nonsense about trying to learn a left-handed sidearm stroke.
Biblewriter

That was a helluva good first post Biblewriter. If you've written a pool bible, I'm buyin'! Hope I also find it in the drawer of the next motel where I stay.

 

[Koop]

The Sidearm Stroke— is almost always used by players who began playing when they were too young to reach the shots any other way. The difficulty with the sidearm stroke is delivering a straight thru delivery. According to expert witnesses Willie Hoppe and "Jake" Schaefer Jr. played with straight thru strokes in spite of their contrary delivery. (Herman Rambow said that Hoppe worked on a straight thru delivery for a few minutes every day.)

The fact that sidearm shooters have grown into their stroke enables them to compensate for fundamental flaws.

A sidearm shooter is likely to be a very strong player because of a lifelong playng career, not because of good form.

**********
Biblewriter

Great post and I'm fairly certain this method describes Keith McCready's style of play. I would obviously defer to the expert(Keith) but from what I have seen it sounds like his style. And he seems to have mastered it.

Regards,
Koop

 

[freddy the beard]

slip-stroke timing

Freddy, I really respect your knowledge of pool and stroke and expect that this is a semantics thing, but I would love to hear more. Of course, this is exactly what you were trying to avoid, sorry.

Strokingly yours, Dave[/QUOTE]

Dave,
I can't let this go. Your quote, "My grip, once tightened after the "slip", could be adjusted based on what I felt was needed for the shot at hand. In other words, I didn't feel the "slip stroke" inhibited my delivering the different type of strokes dicussed in this thread or that my stroke was completed after the grip hand tightened, it just set may hand further back on the cue before delivery." A proper slip-stroke is not adjusted after the tightening. What actually occurs (when done properly) is an adjustment is determined before the stroke is delivered, and then your arm moves forward automaticllyaccording to the pre-determined timing. When I say the stroke is completed I am referring to the fact that the last conscious thing you do in the delivery is squeeze the butt. From that point on there should be no further conscious interference, let your unconscious, pre-conception finish the job. We could go on with this discussion for five more years, suffice to say that I gave everybody enough info to work further on this themselves. Keep in mind, those few paragraphs that I described in the earlier thread took me 15 years of begging champions, buying their breakfast, driving them home, picking up their laundry, in order to induce them to release that info to me. You guys got it for free and in one minute. Make use of it, and leave me alone about it.

By the way, BibleWriter has also explained enough goodness to keep novices practicing for the next ten years. He is also the author of a great book on bar pool 8 ball called the 8-Ball Bible. Its over 300 pages of good stuff. I'm sure if you ask him he will tell y'all how to get hold of it.
The Beard

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

By the way, BibleWriter has also explained enough goodness to keep novices practicing for the next ten years. He is also the author of a great book on bar pool 8 ball called the 8-Ball Bible. Its over 300 pages of good stuff. I'm sure if you ask him he will tell y'all how to get hold of it.
The Beard

I own The 8-ball Bible and have studied it. It is a nice compilation of concepts and techniques for winning 8-ball. It compares various table conditions and makes suggestions for compensating. I knew most of the stuff, but it sure is nice to have it all in one place. However, I suspect he left out a few secrets that we experienced 8-ballers use once in a while. If you play 8-ball, it is well worth the price.

Mr. Givens, send my check immediately. Glad to have you here on the best billiards board on the net and I look forward to more good info.

Jeff Livingston

 

[12squared]

Thank you Mr. Beard!

Dave,
I can't let this go. Your quote, "My grip, once tightened after the "slip", could be adjusted based on what I felt was needed for the shot at hand. In other words, I didn't feel the "slip stroke" inhibited my delivering the different type of strokes dicussed in this thread or that my stroke was completed after the grip hand tightened, it just set may hand further back on the cue before delivery." A proper slip-stroke is not adjusted after the tightening. What actually occurs (when done properly) is an adjustment is determined before the stroke is delivered, and then your arm moves forward automaticllyaccording to the pre-determined timing. When I say the stroke is completed I am referring to the fact that the last conscious thing you do in the delivery is squeeze the butt. From that point on there should be no further conscious interference, let your unconscious, pre-conception finish the job. We could go on with this discussion for five more years, suffice to say that I gave everybody enough info to work further on this themselves. Keep in mind, those few paragraphs that I described in the earlier thread took me 15 years of begging champions, buying their breakfast, driving them home, picking up their laundry, in order to induce them to release that info to me. You guys got it for free and in one minute. Make use of it, and leave me alone about it.

The Beard[/QUOTE]


Freddy,

Just wanted you to know I am officially "letting this go" and want to thank you for insights.

Dave

 

[biblewriter]

I own The 8-ball Bible and have studied it. It is a nice compilation of concepts and techniques for winning 8-ball. It compares various table conditions and makes suggestions for compensating. I knew most of the stuff, but it sure is nice to have it all in one place. However, I suspect he left out a few secrets that we experienced 8-ballers use once in a while. If you play 8-ball, it is well worth the price.

Jeff Livingston

Everybody who gets a copy of THE EIGHT BALL BIBLE begins winning more games before they finish reading the book.

For many shooters the lessons in THE EIGHT BALL BIBLE are the catalyst that propels them to a much higher level of play.

Numerous league leading players credit THE EIGHT BALL BIBLE with improved performance, league championships and tournament victories.

Mark Lachecki winner of the 2004 VNEA INTERNATIONAL MENS SENIOR SINGLES 8-BALL TOURNAMENT had this to say—

“In my final match several situations came up where I used shots from the book. Instead of doing what I usually do I used tactics from THE EIGHT BALL BIBLE and easily won the games.”​

Like Freddy's bank book, the info in THE EIGHT BALL BIBLE comes from competing against some of the best bar table 8-ball players on earth. There's no jive here.

In the long haul, nobody, even the most skilled shotmaker, wins unless they adhere to the strategies in THE EIGHT BALL BIBLE. A strong shooter may buck the odds for a while and win with pure shotmaking, but 8-ball on bar tables will grind them to dust if they persist in using a poor strategy.

Players who want to improve their 8-ball game can order THE EIGHT BALL BIBLE by calling 415-776-1596 or going to http://www.8-ballbible.com/

biblewriter

 

[biblewriter]

A Different Stroke

Roger Conte, the "national treasure of France," recommends a Tap Stroke for close nursing use in straight-rail and balkline play, when the cue ball is a fraction of an inch away from the first object ball.

Conte provides an interesting technique for mastering the Tap Shot for when the all three balls are extremely close together (billes en lunettes).

The obvious risk with the cue ball only a sixteenth of an inch or so from the first carom ball is fouling.

Conte explains a method for making* Tap Shot caroms without fouling by lightening the stroke and using a deliberate deflection technique to score without a double hit.

To learn the speed, Conte has the student practice the Tap Shot with the cue balanced on the forearm — to prevent jerking the cue back — the motion is a very slow push. The forearm exercise is done until the student gets a feel for an extremely soft stroke.

In actual play, the cue rests only on the tip of your middle finger, slightly curved, but without being wrapped around the cue

You abolish the spring of the wrist because this motion is too difficult to control.

The player also stands nearer to the balls to reduce the force of the delivery.

You want a slow total push of the cue without pulling the cue back.

Inside english is used to deflect the cue ball away from a foul.

Conte’s technique makes it possible to softly hit an object ball very full at very close range (1/16") without fouling the shot.

The tap shot is very useful for controlling delicate shots at very close range.

******

Incidentally fellas, I goofed on this thread earlier. I wanted to put the plug for my book in the Wanted/For Sale section of the forum and it wound up here. I apologize for interrupting the different strokes thread, which is very interesting by the way. Hopefully the tid-bit above will be enough penance.
BibleWriter

 

[sonia]

Long In The Tooth

Sonia,
Do I know you? If not, then why on earth would I want to show you anything? Nobody can get anything out of me by being unfriendly and confrontive. However, maybe we got off on the wrong foot. I get upset easily. I never want to discourage any one who has a real love for the game.
the Beard

NOT TRYING TO BE UNFRIENDLY, FREDDY, JUST A CANTANKEROUS OLD COOT WHO SEES NOTHING NEW IN POOL COMING DOWN THE PIKE ANYMORE. BORED, I GUESS. OUTLIVED ALL THE PLAYERS IN MY ERA. POCKETED MY FIRST BALL AUGUST 12, 1934. HAVE PLAYED EVERY DAY SINCE THAT DATE, RIGHT UP TO TODAY.

OH, THE LOGGED IN NAME, SONIA. MY WIFE'S NAME.

I THINK YOU KNOW FRED GUARINO, AND MARY GUARINO. MARY WAS A STUDENT AND FRIEND OF MINE. ROGER GRIFFITH, ALSO. HE WANTED BACKHAND ENGLISH.

WELL, FREDDY, TIME FOR PILLS AND A NAP. AND SORRY I UPSET YOU.

MAYBE WE CAN GET TOGETHER AND CHEW THE FAT ABOUT POOL.

 

[freddy the beard]

Fair enough Old Man

NOT TRYING TO BE UNFRIENDLY, FREDDY, JUST A CANTANKEROUS OLD COOT WHO SEES NOTHING NEW IN POOL COMING DOWN THE PIKE ANYMORE. BORED, I GUESS. OUTLIVED ALL THE PLAYERS IN MY ERA. POCKETED MY FIRST BALL AUGUST 12, 1934. HAVE PLAYED EVERY DAY SINCE THAT DATE, RIGHT UP TO TODAY.

OH, THE LOGGED IN NAME, SONIA. MY WIFE'S NAME.

I THINK YOU KNOW FRED GUARINO, AND MARY GUARINO. MARY WAS A STUDENT AND FRIEND OF MINE. ROGER GRIFFITH, ALSO. HE WANTED BACKHAND ENGLISH.

WELL, FREDDY, TIME FOR PILLS AND A NAP. AND SORRY I UPSET YOU.

MAYBE WE CAN GET TOGETHER AND CHEW THE FAT ABOUT POOL.

Roger Griffith -- a good player. We played banks a few times. Not to brag, but I will, for $50 a game he murdered me. We quadrupled to $200, and he won nary a game. He was one of the last good players I beat playing even. Hoping for a comeback though.
Later, the Beard

 

[Gabber]

Spam

Quote Freddy,
"Now I am expected to up this stuff for free on the internet just because someone challenges my statements.".

I must have missed that post.
I always thought that AZ was a forum where pool lovers come to chat and SHARE information, not JUST to promote their book or products!
If your 'secrets' are in your book, they are not 'secrets' anymore, right? All you are saying is "if you want to know, buy the book", and to me, thats spam.

Gabber...would hate for F to give away 'free' info.

 

[freddy the beard]

What do you have to contribute?

Quote Freddy,
"Now I am expected to up this stuff for free on the internet just because someone challenges my statements.".

I must have missed that post.
I always thought that AZ was a forum where pool lovers come to chat and SHARE information, not JUST to promote their book or products!
If your 'secrets' are in your book, they are not 'secrets' anymore, right? All you are saying is "if you want to know, buy the book", and to me, thats spam.

Gabber...would hate for F to give away 'free' info.

What do you have to give away, jerk, besides knocks? Why don't you put something on the table? How much do I owe you? I have already released enough goodness to keep somebody practicing for the next ten years. When I came up, a player wouldn't tell you what pocket to break to. If you want free advice, go to a lawyer, they give a lot away. I don't know you, but I would bet that you don't bet. Do you at least play for the time? I earned the right to have a book, chum, I did 50 years in the green-felt jungle.
the Beard

 

[Fred Agnir]

. Maybe only 5% of players realize that there even is a stroke-slip stroke. No one has asked me about it in 25 years. This stroke is the opposite of the slip-stroke because as you bring the stick forward your grip hand releases the stick and goes backward on the stick and your hand does not quickly close on the butt.

Just as an FYI, both strokes (slip stroke, and reverse slip stroke) have been discussed many times on the internet. There aren't many things on pool that haven't been discussed at one time or another. That's something Fast Larry never seemed to comprehend.

Regards,

Fred Agnir

 

[Fred Agnir]

I have already released enough goodness to keep somebody practicing for the next ten years. When I came up, a player wouldn't tell you what pocket to break to. If you want free advice, go to a lawyer, they give a lot away.

I'll give the same advice I gave Mr. Gruninger. Take it for whatever it's worth. If you come to the board thinking that nobody knows anything, then you are greatly underestimating the board, and breaking an unwritten cardinal rule of discussion forums. That is, this is a sharing board, not a teacher student forum. The moment someone assumes the role of teacher, then those that are sharers will pipe up (as they already have).

Most of us realize the wealth of knowledge you have to offer. But, it would be unfair and incorrect to blanketly assume that most of the posters are novices waiting with bated breath. Many great players have been on the internet boards long before your (much appreciated) arrival.

This is a board for discussion. Nobody is asking for anything other than discussions.

Regards,

Fred Agnir

 

[BazookaJoe]

Mr Drummond's daughter Kimberly taught me the different strokes a long time ago. If you don't believe me, ask Willis and Aronold.

 

[Gabber]

wrong attitude

What do you have to give away, jerk, No need for name calling Freddy. besides knocks? Why don't you put something on the table? How much do I owe you? Nothing! Nobody said you did! Again, you missed the point.I have already released enough goodness to keep somebody practicing for the next ten years. When I came up, a player wouldn't tell you what pocket to break to. If you want free advice, go to a lawyer, they give a lot away. I don't know you, but I would bet that you don't bet. I used to. Do you at least play for the time? I get free time. I earned the right to have a book, chum, I did 50 years in the green-felt jungle.
the Beard Again, you miss the whole point of this forum.

The poster above said it a lot better than I ever could have.

Lighten up Freddy, even you might learn something here.

Gabber...............gives free info all the time to anyone who asks.

 

[freddy the beard]

Regards,Fred Agnir[/QUOTE]
If you come to the board thinking that nobody knows anything, then you are greatly underestimating the board, and breaking an unwritten cardinal rule of discussion forums. That is, this is a sharing board, not a teacher student forum. The moment someone assumes the role of teacher, then those that are sharers will pipe up (as they already have).

Most of us realize the wealth of knowledge you have to offer. But, it would be unfair and incorrect to blanketly assume that most of the posters are novices waiting with bated breath. Many great players have been on the internet boards long before your (much appreciated) arrival.

Where did I say that nobody knows anything? Dont put words in my mouth. And this was "Gabbers" quote. "If you want to know, buy the book. That's SPAM." I never said that either. What I did say, was to ask for the deepest darkest secrets to spill over to the general public from an old campaigner like me is unreasonable. Do I think of myself as a teacher? Yes, I certainly do. 50 yrs brother, I earned it. And to have somebody call my comments and insights, SPAM is infuriating.
the Beard


Fred Agnir[/QUOTE]

 

[Fred Agnir]

Do I think of myself as a teacher? Yes, I certainly do. 50 yrs brother, I earned it.

As I said, if you come on the board tryint to teach rather than trying to share, then posters will pipe up and give you grief. They always have.

Your experience in pool will not change the behavior of the internet. So, you have two choices: heed my message, or forever bicker with those that will question your teaching overtones. I'd think you'd have a better time if you listen to my message. Share and learn. That's what we're here for.

Respectfully,

Fred Agnir

 

[Gabber]

No title

Freddy,
"Where did I say that nobody knows anything? "

Quote Freddy,
"Sonia you are an idiot.
I would refrain from giving advice, Sonia. It sounds like you don't know a pool ball from a bowling ball.
The Beard"

Dont put words in my mouth. And this was "Gabbers" quote. "If you want to know, buy the book. That's SPAM." I never said that either. Wrong. I never quoted you. What I did say, was to ask for the deepest darkest secrets[ to spill over to the general public from an old campaigner like me is unreasonable. Do I think of myself as a teacher? Yes, I certainly do. 50 yrs brother, I earned it. And to have somebody call my comments and insights, SPAM is infuriating. The comments and insights that you think we should all be paying for.
the Beard

"To order Banking With The Beard call for an autographed copy at 312 225 5514 or email me at fbentivegna@sbcglobal.net The book cost $29.95 plus $4 shipping. Its 220 pages of stories, diagrams, systems and secrets.
Freddy The Beard"

Lighten up Freddy. We are all friends here.

Gabber