learning english

Brian I would like to see some proof that indicates that the pros miss mostly because of extreme english. What do you base your opinion on? I've talked to pros and top players about this very subject, most of them believe it has to do with poor cueing, lapse in concentration, and aim/alignment.

Pros do not miss because of sidespin. They already know how much to compensate for sidespin, if they didnt know, they wouldn't be such great players. Aside from that, pros rarely use extreme sidespin, and they miss all the time.
 
BrianK74 said:
Kidding aside, I did an experiment over a 5 month period. I stopped using any kind of sidespin english, I only used vertical axis spin. I was still able to get the position I required but made far more balls and won far more games.

I know what you'll reply to this, that I didn't understand how to use english in the first place. And you'd be dead wrong.
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Isn't your experiment proof that I'm dead right? Your percentage should be the same if you truly knew how to use english. If anything, your percentage should be the same with english.

Fact of the matter is, english is a double-edged sword. For every benefit english offers, there are just as many negative reactions.

Most of the time a player needs english because they left themselves a bad angle. Most of the time that same bad angle was caused by the english on the previous shot. Do you see my double-edged sword point?.
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Not only is this a slippery slope and completely illogical conclusion, it's the same false doom and gloom that I'm accusing you and many other posters.

The fact is that in today's 9-ball game, most of the bad angles are left from speed control or choice of wrong pattern. To blame it on english is a red herring.

If you keep your choice toward the use of no english, what happens to the 15% of the shots that you feel it's necessary to use english? Without the the use of english, the constant practice of english under the gun, why would you be prepared to come with the english shot when it mattered and when it was necessary?

This is a shot I presented several years ago. It was the one-ball. Do you blame this position after the break shot on english? How do you even come close to position without english? Isn't this the type of shot that posters who ask about english eventually want to be able shoot?

http://www.omniscium.com/pbsa/ShowShot.asp?ShotID=28

If you shoot with english and continue to miss, then yes, it's a recipe for disaster. But we're talking about helping posters to make balls, not miss.

Fred
 
English, shhhhhhhhh i failed English in high school, but did really gooder in Math heheeh. As for English in the wonderful game of Billiards, i tend not to use it cause with the correct angle of the objectball and cueball you can purdy much move the cueball around by using center english, but when i do need it, i allow all the hours of practicing it on the table, day to day i practice using nothing but english, left hand and right hand on all shots, this way when a shot comes up in a game where i need to apply english i know how to execute it. Cole 'TheConArtist'
 
drivermaker said:
Efren and Bustamante have the tip of their cue ON the CLOTH at various times when they're aiming and setting up. It could also be on the right or left side of the CB. Yet, when they strike the CB they may in fact be hitting it ABOVE horizontal center and on the opposite side from where they initially lined it up.

Why might a player wish to do this?

I've always liked the name of an old TV/movie actor by the name of
CLU GULAGER...http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0347656/

but I even like yours better...CLUELESS JEFF.
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You asked a question and I attempted an answer so I might learn something new and add it to my pool shot. Your example above is just a variation on what you asked before. How about an explanation about why you asked the question in the first place and maybe even an specific answer about its importance to playing pool?

Then I asked you a simple question ABOUT YOUR POST and your [cluefull?] response was to dis me. Oh well, another wasted thread, I suppose. sigh.

We're getting older, ya know, and soon won't be able to play at all. Time's running out.

Jeff Livingston
 
English...fortunately, due to low complexity grammar and high exposure, easy language to learn, unlike German or French for instance. After just 2-3 years in school being tought by bad teachers, I was able to follow American movies without subtitles, yeah...ok, ok, it was Arnie's 'Terminator 1'...:D
 
Someone (local) advised me to learn to use english when I was just starting to play seriously. This was BAD advice, my game went down the tubes. I was still learning to aim with a center ball hit.

Then I read somewhere on the internet *not* to use english unless absolutely necessary. I stopped using english and my game improved quite a bit!

Then I read that some pros "go forward" with the cue ball to get position on their next shot. Then I realized - hey, if the cue ball goes forward, it will hit a rail, then come back!

Next I read something about "speed control". Being able to hit the cue ball with different speeds to get position for the next shot. I practiced and practiced this. Then I learned I could use a centerball hit, go forward for many shots, and with the right speed, have good position for my next shot.

So sometimes I have a shot where the cue ball needs to be back at the other end of the table. Then I say to myself that I will just make the cue ball "go around the neighborhood". I shoot it with enough speed to continue forward, then it will hit one or more rails, then it goes back to the other end of the table. The only requirement for this is that it not be a straight in shot. But even then, you can "cheat" the pocket.

No english needed most of the time, speed control works wonders!

(Lesson learned - I don't listen to locals, I do better by listening to the experts on the internet...)
 
chefjeff said:
You asked a question and I attempted an answer so I might learn something new and add it to my pool shot. Your example above is just a variation on what you asked before. How about an explanation about why you asked the question in the first place and maybe even an specific answer about its importance to playing pool?

Then I asked you a simple question ABOUT YOUR POST and your [cluefull?] response was to dis me. Oh well, another wasted thread, I suppose. sigh.

We're getting older, ya know, and soon won't be able to play at all. Time's running out.

Jeff Livingston
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Yeh, you answered it and it was so far off base and incorrect that giving the response "why" or "how" would have been a moot point for you. All it would have done was screw your game up even further and give you more fodder to disagree and say that it's a dumb way to shoot, which is something you've done in the past. It's like trying to teach a 20 handicap on the driving range and then have him tell the pro that it can't be done that way and makes no sense. You've done it before, I see no reason why you wouldn't do it again.

We're getting older, but I'm in great shape and see myself playing for a lonnnng time to come. How about you? Keep taking those vitamins and antioxidants...I do. (seriously)
 
drivermaker said:
Yeh, you answered it and it was so far off base and incorrect that giving the response "why" or "how" would have been a moot point for you. All it would have done was screw your game up even further and give you more fodder to disagree and say that it's a dumb way to shoot, which is something you've done in the past. It's like trying to teach a 20 handicap on the driving range and then have him tell the pro that it can't be done that way and makes no sense. You've done it before, I see no reason why you wouldn't do it again.

We're getting older, but I'm in great shape and see myself playing for a lonnnng time to come. How about you? Keep taking those vitamins and antioxidants...I do. (seriously)
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I'm glad you're into personal health care. It really makes a big difference for a while, but nature will most likely kill us anyway, sooner than we'd like. :( Is there anyway I can get your vitamin business? (seriously)

Now, back to our program...

I said it was a "dumb way to shoot?" When did I say that? I asked a question about it; I made no judgmental statement. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

I don't tell professionals anything about their profession. I may question what they say, but they are the pros, not I. To prevent myself from wasting a lot of time and to maximize my efforts, I have consciously and rationally immersed myself in a process of learning and this makes it necessary to honestly face my faults, mistakes, and lack of knowledge. Please don't lump me in with those "know-it-alls" who don't know it all but pretend to. Thanks.

Before we chase these new questions, how about we go back to your post about aiming off center, then moving the tip to the center? OK?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
I don't tell professionals anything about their profession. I may question what they say, but they are the pros, not I.

Before we chase these new questions, how about we go back to your post about aiming off center, then moving the tip to the center? OK?

Jeff Livingston
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Why would you even want to question what they say? What difference does it make other than to open something up for possible disagreement or controversy. It doesn't matter whether you were on the driving range or at a pool table...a pro tells you to do something because that's the way it SHOULD be done and because it's been time tested over decades and WORKS.
That's all you NEED to know. Explanations only lead to paralysis by analysis later on down the line, you don't need to know what a teacher knows to become a teacher. All a PLAYER needs to know is how to perform it and that it's the way it should be done. THAT'S IT.

If you know how to do certain things in aiming and setting up off center and pivoting, you can just flat out knock one ball in after another with few misses.
THAT'S why someone would want to shoot that way.
 
drivermaker said:
Why would you even want to question what they say? What difference does it make other than to open something up for possible disagreement or controversy. It doesn't matter whether you were on the driving range or at a pool table...a pro tells you to do something because that's the way it SHOULD be done and because it's been time tested over decades and WORKS.
That's all you NEED to know. Explanations only lead to paralysis by analysis later on down the line, you don't need to know what a teacher knows to become a teacher. All a PLAYER needs to know is how to perform it and that it's the way it should be done. THAT'S IT.

If you know how to do certain things in aiming and setting up off center and pivoting, you can just flat out knock one ball in after another with few misses.
THAT'S why someone would want to shoot that way.
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Thanks for the "why" answer. Now, why, specifically, for your example---if you don't mind?

I question things because (one reason) I want to understand how/why/when/etc. so I know the principle of it so when something new comes up, I have a guideline on how to do it correctly.

Professional advice is all fine and dandy until one pro contradicts another. Then what?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Thanks for the "why" answer. Now, why, specifically, for your example---if you don't mind?

I question things because (one reason) I want to understand how/why/when/etc. so I know the principle of it so when something new comes up, I have a guideline on how to do it correctly.

Professional advice is all fine and dandy until one pro contradicts another. Then what?

Jeff Livingston
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You don't need to know how/why/when etc. All you need to do is perform it correctly right from the start as per instruction from the teacher. It's only HIS job to know how/why/when/etc. You seem to want to be a teacher.
Last week JAM talked about the hot shooting 15 year old that almost blew off the field. He might know how, buy do you really think he knows or cares about the why, when, etc? At 15...I don't think so! He just DOES what he has to do to make a ton of balls and get position on the next one.

EVERYTHING will be contradicted by someone at sometime or another. So what? This is why you just have to have faith in what you're doing and the person showing you how. If you don't find someone else right from the start.

Sorry Jeffy...you didn't make my top 100 list of individuals that I'll take the time with or who have been chosen for the "help" list. You'll have to find the "why" elsewhere. Until then, keep doin' what you've been doin'...just do it better.
 
Tweo thing help me Learn and Understand English.

Robert Bryne's Tapes Volumes I & II

Practice, Practice, and more Practice.


P.S. If you are allowed to use a STRIPED BALL as your Cue Ball during Practice Session, so as to see how the Cue Ball Reacts to your English.... ;)
 
Billy_Bob said:
Someone (local) advised me to learn to use english when I was just starting to play seriously. This was BAD advice, my game went down the tubes. I was still learning to aim with a center ball hit.

Then I read somewhere on the internet *not* to use english unless absolutely necessary. I stopped using english and my game improved quite a bit!

Then I read that some pros "go forward" with the cue ball to get position on their next shot. Then I realized - hey, if the cue ball goes forward, it will hit a rail, then come back!

Next I read something about "speed control". Being able to hit the cue ball with different speeds to get position for the next shot. I practiced and practiced this. Then I learned I could use a centerball hit, go forward for many shots, and with the right speed, have good position for my next shot.

So sometimes I have a shot where the cue ball needs to be back at the other end of the table. Then I say to myself that I will just make the cue ball "go around the neighborhood". I shoot it with enough speed to continue forward, then it will hit one or more rails, then it goes back to the other end of the table. The only requirement for this is that it not be a straight in shot. But even then, you can "cheat" the pocket.

No english needed most of the time, speed control works wonders!

(Lesson learned - I don't listen to locals, I do better by listening to the experts on the internet...)
Click to expand...


Thanks Billy Bob, for the great words of wisdom. This is what I was trying to say but was apparently too specific for the tech heads.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands that english is a beautiful curse.
 
Fred Agnir said:
Isn't your experiment proof that I'm dead right? Your percentage should be the same if you truly knew how to use english. If anything, your percentage should be the same with english.

Not only is this a slippery slope and completely illogical conclusion, it's the same false doom and gloom that I'm accusing you and many other posters.

The fact is that in today's 9-ball game, most of the bad angles are left from speed control or choice of wrong pattern. To blame it on english is a red herring.

If you keep your choice toward the use of no english, what happens to the 15% of the shots that you feel it's necessary to use english? Without the the use of english, the constant practice of english under the gun, why would you be prepared to come with the english shot when it mattered and when it was necessary?

This is a shot I presented several years ago. It was the one-ball. Do you blame this position after the break shot on english? How do you even come close to position without english? Isn't this the type of shot that posters who ask about english eventually want to be able shoot?

http://www.omniscium.com/pbsa/ShowShot.asp?ShotID=28

If you shoot with english and continue to miss, then yes, it's a recipe for disaster. But we're talking about helping posters to make balls, not miss.

Fred
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Fred, let's just agree to disagree.

You've made some pretty big assumptions about my game and my person, but I don't mind. I'm comfortable with my game and my beliefs.

As I said before, whatever works for you, do it in peace. You and a thousand clones of yourself will not change my personal beliefs......just as I don't expect to change you.

However, if you expect me to think your advice is any more valid than my own, you're obviously way off base.
 
LastTwo said:
Brian I would like to see some proof that indicates that the pros miss mostly because of extreme english. What do you base your opinion on? I've talked to pros and top players about this very subject, most of them believe it has to do with poor cueing, lapse in concentration, and aim/alignment.

Pros do not miss because of sidespin. They already know how much to compensate for sidespin, if they didnt know, they wouldn't be such great players. Aside from that, pros rarely use extreme sidespin, and they miss all the time.
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I'll make you a deal, you play your way, I'll play mine.

If Northman doesn't like my advice, Northman can ignore it. Why don't you take a lesson from Northman?.
 
BrianK74 said:
Fred, let's just agree to disagree.

You've made some pretty big assumptions about my game and my person, but I don't mind. I'm comfortable with my game and my beliefs.

As I said before, whatever works for you, do it in peace. You and a thousand clones of yourself will not change my personal beliefs......just as I don't expect to change you.

However, if you expect me to think your advice is any more valid than my own, you're obviously way off base.
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Brian ,Fred is giving you the same advice as would professional players. You use whatever spin you need to, for the desired position.

Playing the game with the principle of avoiding english, or that english is 'bad', that is going to do you more harm than good in the long run. Billy Bob says when he was first learning the game someone told him to use english and that caused him to play bad. In case you didn't notice, everyone who is first learning the game will play bad, with english or not. It's better to use everything you can and try to learn everything you can.

The less you use something, the tougher it is to use. If you don't use english, you have not mastered it, and therefore even on shots that absoloutely require english to get even halfway decent position on the next ball will be a weakness for you. I think that your advice of avoiding english at all costs can really be detrimental to people's games later on if they heed that advice.
 
LastTwo said:
Brian ,Fred is giving you the same advice as would professional players. You use whatever spin you need to, for the desired position.

Playing the game with the principle of avoiding english, or that english is 'bad', that is going to do you more harm than good in the long run. Billy Bob says when he was first learning the game someone told him to use english and that caused him to play bad. In case you didn't notice, everyone who is first learning the game will play bad, with english or not. It's better to use everything you can and try to learn everything you can.

The less you use something, the tougher it is to use. If you don't use english, you have not mastered it, and therefore even on shots that absoloutely require english to get even halfway decent position on the next ball will be a weakness for you. I think that your advice of avoiding english at all costs can really be detrimental to people's games later on if they heed that advice.
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Question, what do you know about me or my game?. Answer, Nothing.

Just because I don't boast about all my "big achievements" and enter every stupid pissing contest on this forum doesn't mean that I'm new to the game.

You and Fred are both arrogant enough to assume that I haven't learned how to use english?. You are arrogant enough to assume that anyone can ever "master" english, why the very word "master" is so pretentious.

Any poolplayer, pro or not, who is arrogant enough to claim they have "mastered" any aspect of the game should be dragged through the streets by a milk wagon.

First off, I never used the word "avoid" using english. My point was respect english, know it's limitations and it's negative effects. Use it only when it is necessary, just understand the trade-offs.

Telling someone to use english as a "first resort" is the more damaging advice to offer.
 
It's become clear to me that LastTwo and Fred have taken issue with some advice I offered Northman.

LastTwo and Fred feel it will harm Northman's game down the road. To this I offer, if he wanted real advice that's worth it's weight in gold, he would have hired a BCA instructor, not asked a bunch of internet know-it-alls like us.

Point is, Northman wanted free advice from a public audience. This naturally means that some advice may help him & some advice may hurt him. It's up to Northman to make that call, not any one of us.

Rather than peck at my ass and waste valuable server space, why not offer your own advice?. No, you guys sit back and debate someone who actually took the time to offer genuine advice which has served him well. It stands to reason someone else may benefit from that advice as well.

What I'm getting at is get bent!.
 
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BrianK74 said:
It's become clear to me that LastTwo and Fred have taken issue with some advice I offered Northman.

LastTwo and Fred feel it will harm Northman's game down the road. To this I offer, if he wanted real advice that's worth it's weight in gold, he would have hired a BCA instructor, not asked a bunch of internet know-it-alls like us.

Point is, Northman wanted free advice from a public audience. This naturally means that some advice may help him & some advice may hurt him. It's up to Northman to make that call, not any one of us.

Rather than peck at my ass and waste valuable server space, why not offer your own advice?. No, you guys sit back and debate someone who actually took the time to offer genuine advice which has served him well. It stands to reason someone else may benefit from that advice as well.

What I'm getting at is get bent!.
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There was a thread made a while ago about people who are too quick to offer advice to others when they don't realize that the advice they are offering can cause the person alot of problems.

I asked you what you base your claims on, you did not respond. I told you that the views of Fred and myself are also shared by most professional players, and I have talked to plenty about this very subject.

I pointed out that your advice could hurt his game, which I believe to be true. Don't be scared of a debate, and if you are going to give someone advice and someone asks you what backs your information up, ANSWER THEM AND DON'T GET ANGRY. There is nothing wrong with a civil debate. If you can't do that with out resorting to childish insults, you DON'T BELONG ON THIS FORUM OR ANY OTHER POOL FORUM.
 
drivermaker said:
You don't need to know how/why/when etc. All you need to do is perform it correctly right from the start as per instruction from the teacher. It's only HIS job to know how/why/when/etc. You seem to want to be a teacher.
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What is "correctly," and how would I know this? Simply because an "pro" told me? Would this "pro" be someone who is making tiny amounts of money on the tour and is so miserable that s/he can't eat without hustling and vents his frustrations on a computer board? To follow the advice of such a person would be in direct contradiction to my life's goal, abiding happiness.

Last week JAM talked about the hot shooting 15 year old that almost blew off the field. He might know how, buy do you really think he knows or cares about the why, when, etc? At 15...I don't think so! He just DOES what he has to do to make a ton of balls and get position on the next one.
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Did you read in the current BD about the 14 year old who uses pool to help him with ADD? It is telling.

EVERYTHING will be contradicted by someone at sometime or another. So what? This is why you just have to have faith in what you're doing and the person showing you how. If you don't find someone else right from the start.
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Faith? Please. That is just ridiculous...especially coming from you.

Sorry Jeffy...you didn't make my top 100 list of individuals that I'll take the time with or who have been chosen for the "help" list. You'll have to find the "why" elsewhere. Until then, keep doin' what you've been doin'...just do it better.[/
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QUOTE]

Well that's cool and alright by me. I was asking for advice from you because you posted about an alignment technique and I wanted to learn the how/why/when, etc. Your refusal to tell me is your right; my refusal to have blind faith is mine.

Jeff Livingston
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