learning english

[DaveK]

English, needed or not ?

So here's a little idea, relatively objective too I believe ...

Look at the books The Pro Book (I own and use this book) and 99 Critical Shots (I've never seen this book let alone read it, I should). Count up the shots that suggest side-spin, and the ones that do not. I think that the answer will be pretty clear. Here are the numbers from The Pro Book

Simple Pots with Position
12 use sidespin
4 use no sidespin

Safeties
10 use sidespin
6 use no sidespin

Kicks
11 use sidespin
0 use no sidespin (!)

Kick Safeties
6 use sidespin
2 use no sidespin

Banks
3 use sidespin
5 use no sidespin

Somebody else can tally up the 99 Critical Shots

I've played/practiced most of these 'Pro Book' shots, and they are pretty well described in the book. My big breakthrough when using sidespin was when I realized how little offset from center-ball cueing was really needed to create some effects. Having said that, I still play the occasional shot with extreme siding. It really depends on where you are, where you want to be, and what paths exist between the two. I play mostly 9 ball.

Dave

 

[northman]

I sorta expected some of these responses

the use minimal english vs spin away types. Thanks to all the posters that offered useful advice, it is all considered for what it is, free advice. And I am a big boy and can choose to use/ignore advice at my own peril.

What I have been toying with is a little outside english to counter the collision-induced throw. On a long cut shot I think most would agree that using english is not the best idea, so I aim using centerball, aiming to overcut the pocket by some (estimated) amount, and if things go well the ball splits the pocket.

On a shorter shot, maybe 3 feet or so from cue to object ball, perhaps the same routine will work, or I can line up the shot for a true centerpocket angle, and use a bit (estimated) of english to compensate for the throw.

So the question becomes, what is easier/more consistent to estimate, the proper deviation from a straight-in aim line, or the amount of side spin, to compensate for collision-induced throw? Which technique has more variables? I understand that different cues affect the way cueballs respond to english, but if I'm using my trusty cue, that seems like one variable I can control. Effects from table surface and ball condition, humidity, etc are out of my control (if not playing on my home table). Do any of these factors enter into a decision to use/not use english on a certain shot?

Also, when the cut angle gets extreme, say 65 degrees or more, it seems to me that the ability to hit the ball a bit fuller with english is easier to do than hit an ultra precise cut, as the closer to the edge of the object ball your aim point is the less forgiving of errors it seems to be. Or maybe I just need a new Professional Aiming System (that should boost the post count a bit).


Northman

 

[BRKNRUN]

the use minimal english vs spin away types. Thanks to all the posters that offered useful advice, it is all considered for what it is, free advice. And I am a big boy and can choose to use/ignore advice at my own peril.

What I have been toying with is a little outside english to counter the collision-induced throw. On a long cut shot I think most would agree that using english is not the best idea, so I aim using centerball, aiming to overcut the pocket by some (estimated) amount, and if things go well the ball splits the pocket.

On a shorter shot, maybe 3 feet or so from cue to object ball, perhaps the same routine will work, or I can line up the shot for a true centerpocket angle, and use a bit (estimated) of english to compensate for the throw.

So the question becomes, what is easier/more consistent to estimate, the proper deviation from a straight-in aim line, or the amount of side spin, to compensate for collision-induced throw? Which technique has more variables? I understand that different cues affect the way cueballs respond to english, but if I'm using my trusty cue, that seems like one variable I can control. Effects from table surface and ball condition, humidity, etc are out of my control (if not playing on my home table). Do any of these factors enter into a decision to use/not use english on a certain shot?

Also, when the cut angle gets extreme, say 65 degrees or more, it seems to me that the ability to hit the ball a bit fuller with english is easier to do than hit an ultra precise cut, as the closer to the edge of the object ball your aim point is the less forgiving of errors it seems to be. Or maybe I just need a new Professional Aiming System (that should boost the post count a bit).


Northman

Everyone uses different techniques because everyone sees things different..You will have to experiment and find what works best for you....

English in my opinion is a lot like having a Fire Station in your neighborhood...You want them fully trained to perform every aspect of thier job and ready in a moments notice....but hope to use them as little as possible

 

[Jal]

...
What I have been toying with is a little outside english to counter the collision-induced throw. On a long cut shot I think most would agree that using english is not the best idea, so I aim using centerball, aiming to overcut the pocket by some (estimated) amount, and if things go well the ball splits the pocket.

On a shorter shot, maybe 3 feet or so from cue to object ball, perhaps the same routine will work, or I can line up the shot for a true centerpocket angle, and use a bit (estimated) of english to compensate for the throw.

So the question becomes, what is easier/more consistent to estimate, the proper deviation from a straight-in aim line, or the amount of side spin, to compensate for collision-induced throw? Which technique has more variables?

It seems to me that you may have answered your own question. If using english complicates things too much for long cuts, then why wouldn't the same apply to the shorter shots? If it's easier to make the long ones without spin, then isn't it also easier to make the short ones? True, if the balls are close enough and you hit hard enough, most of the swerve will be eliminated. But then you have to hit harder than you might otherwise need to do.

I'm not completely persuaded that you should or shouldn't use outside english for the purpose of eliminating thow, but the above argument along with the fact that english is generally used as a positioning device, tends to make me lean against this application of it. Just some thoughts.

Jim

 

[drivermaker]

What is "correctly," and how would I know this? Simply because an "pro" told me? Would this "pro" be someone who is making tiny amounts of money on the tour and is so miserable that s/he can't eat without hustling and vents his frustrations on a computer board? To follow the advice of such a person would be in direct contradiction to my life's goal, abiding happiness.



Did you read in the current BD about the 14 year old who uses pool to help him with ADD? It is telling.



Faith? Please. That is just ridiculous...especially coming from you.

QUOTE]

Well that's cool and alright by me. I was asking for advice from you because you posted about an alignment technique and I wanted to learn the how/why/when, etc. Your refusal to tell me is your right; my refusal to have blind faith is mine.

Jeff Livingston

Jeff...there are great teachers (which you wouldn't recognize it he was nose to nose to you)...there are not very good teachers (which you also wouldn't recognize)...either way you'd be to suspicious or questioning in either of their teachings...

There are very good students...and there are absolutely piss poor students.

You fall in the absolutey piss poor student category so it doesn't matter who teaches you or what they say...you need to have a big party with DCP and bring a teacher in together and diss them in your own inevitable ways.

You're doomed...you'll ALWAYS be a HACK!!!

 

[JohnnyP]

My new Viking deflects so much that applying outside English to eliminate throw has the exact opposite effect.

Not worth messing with unless I'm trying to spin the cue ball a couple rails out of the corner. For that, I have to aim to almost miss the whole ball.

 

[Travis Bickle]

What I have been toying with is a little outside english to counter the collision-induced throw. On a long cut shot I think most would agree that using english is not the best idea, so I aim using centerball, aiming to overcut the pocket by some (estimated) amount, and if things go well the ball splits the pocket.

I think slightly overcutting soft cut shots is an easier and more consistent way of pocketing than using a dab of english, unless the angle's too sharp to hit the ball softly. I tried the same thing you've been doing, and got frustrated with the inconsistency.

Getting shape is another story. You'll have to calculate what gives you the better chance of getting out, using english or not. And that takes many hours trying out different approaches, seeing what works best for you. And that changes as you add shots to your game.

I think it comes down more to table time (and maybe some professional help) than any sort of abstract analysis. If you observe what's happening when you hit thousands of shots over months and years, using various compensations, depending on speed, juice, angle, etc., it'll start to come to you. Some shots will become routine, others you'll know just won't work the way you're hitting them. You'll begin to sense the ways to use your margin for error.

 

[TheConArtist]

I think slightly overcutting soft cut shots is an easier and more consistent way of pocketing than using a dab of english, unless the angle's too sharp to hit the ball softly. I tried the same thing you've been doing, and got frustrated with the inconsistency.

Getting shape is another story. You'll have to calculate what gives you the better chance of getting out, using english or not. And that takes many hours trying out different approaches, seeing what works best for you. And that changes as you add shots to your game.

I think it comes down more to table time (and maybe some professional help) than any sort of abstract analysis. If you observe what's happening when you hit thousands of shots over months and years, using various compensations, depending on speed, juice, angle, etc., it'll start to come to you. Some shots will become routine, others you'll know just won't work the way you're hitting them. You'll begin to sense the ways to use your margin for error.

Very well worded, nyce post. Cole 'TheConArtist'

 

[Fred Agnir]

Not worth messing with unless I'm trying to spin the cue ball a couple rails out of the corner. For that, I have to aim to almost miss the whole ball.

This is not abnormal for that shot.

Fred

 

[chefjeff]

Jeff...there are great teachers (which you wouldn't recognize it he was nose to nose to you)...there are not very good teachers (which you also wouldn't recognize)...either way you'd be to suspicious or questioning in either of their teachings...

There are very good students...and there are absolutely piss poor students.

You fall in the absolutey piss poor student category so it doesn't matter who teaches you or what they say...you need to have a big party with DCP and bring a teacher in together and diss them in your own inevitable ways.

You're doomed...you'll ALWAYS be a HACK!!!

So I (again) tried the shot you described and (again) got the result I said in my guessing post. Either you said it wrong, I read it wrong, or you're wrong. What do I believe now, oh wise one?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Billy_Bob]

...Billy Bob says when he was first learning the game someone told him to use english and that caused him to play bad. In case you didn't notice, everyone who is first learning the game will play bad, with english or not...

I'll be the first to admit that everyone is different and learns differently.

But in my case, I am a "learn one thing at a time, then go on to the next thing" type of person.

I like to give total concentration to learning just one thing. In this case I was learning "muscle memory" for center ball hits. I feel that practicing using english while doing this and aiming differently for these shots would have messed up my learning of center ball hits.

I don't know, but I suppose there could be people out there who would do better learning everything all at once. Is this the case?

 

[drivermaker]

So I (again) tried the shot you described and (again) got the result I said in my guessing post. Either you said it wrong, I read it wrong, or you're wrong. What do I believe now, oh wise one?

Jeff Livingston

Mike Page.....

 

[vapoolplayer]

The fact is that in today's 9-ball game, most of the bad angles are left from speed control or choice of wrong pattern. To blame it on english is a red herring.


Fred

bingo.

most of the time, if you play the right pattern, you have a decent amount off room for error, even if you hit the ball to hard or soft.

very few times will you actually have to land the cue ball on a dime in 9 ball.

if you're having alot of trouble getting out all the time, i suggest you look into your pattern play.

VAP

 

[unknownpro]

My new Viking deflects so much that applying outside English to eliminate throw has the exact opposite effect.

Not worth messing with unless I'm trying to spin the cue ball a couple rails out of the corner. For that, I have to aim to almost miss the whole ball.

You should have to aim to miss the whole ball.

 

[Rod]

You should have to aim to miss the whole ball.

Am I missing something here? How are we aiming? Why would you have to aim to miss the ball? For a simple shot like spinning two rails out of a corner, I'd be aiming at very very near the exact angle.

Rod

 

[mikepage]

Am I missing something here? How are we aiming? Why would you have to aim to miss the ball? For a simple shot like spinning two rails out of a corner, I'd be aiming at very very near the exact angle.

Rod

Because of squirt, the correct aim for a thin cut with outside english is an aim for which the cueball would miss entirely the object ball if there was no squirt. This means if the cueball actually went in the direction the stick is pointing it would miss the object ball.

But because many people don't compensate consciously for squirt, many people would just look at this aim and say this is just aiming for a thin cut. The squirt compensation for many is integrated into what the correct aim looks like to them, imo.

mike page
fargo

 

[unknownpro]

Am I missing something here? How are we aiming? Why would you have to aim to miss the ball? For a simple shot like spinning two rails out of a corner, I'd be aiming at very very near the exact angle.

Rod

Aim your stick on that shot and where is it pointing?

 

[Rod]

Oh, Ok, you guys are talking about aiming the cue. I never pay the cue any attention, it's not what hits the o/b, the c/b does. LOL If that's what people say/mean by aim to miss, then sure I can see why. We all see things different. Because of that, I think squirt is less of an evil than some make it out to be.

Rod

 

[JohnnyP]

Rod: You don't aim the cue? Do you know Patrick the alien? Or maybe Imsharma?

 

[Rod]

Rod: You don't aim the cue? Do you know Patrick the alien? Or maybe Imsharma?

I aim the cue at the cue ball exactly where I intend to strike it. When I use english though, it really isn't relevant. Sure there is a parallel per-say but the cue isn't aimed at the o/b. BTW, I don't know those loosers!

Rod