Legal Hit Rules Clarification/Question - Balls Frozen to Rail

[GADawg]

I have a question about legal hits in various situations where OB/CB are frozen to rails. For purpose of clarification I am asking only about BCAPL and WPA rules. There are three situations that I am thinking about. The first two are pretty clear in the rules but I am not sure about the third. See Wei table below

1. Situation 1 - OB frozen to rail/CB not

To get legal hit, after CB contact with OB, 1)some ball must be pocketed, or 2) CB hit any rail or 3) OB or any other ball hit any of the other 3 rails that the OB was not frozen to

2. Situation 2 - OB and CB frozen to same rail

To get legal hit after CB contact with OB, 1) some ball must be pocketed or 2) CB or OB or any other ball must contact one of the other 3 rails that theOB/CB were not frozen to or 3) OB or CB can leave the rail frozen to, contact a third ball(like the 6 ball on the table) and come back to contact the same rail again.

In this one, BCAPL rules are very clear about the third way to get the legal hit, but WPA is not as far as I can tell. BCAPL clearly states that contact must be made with third ball and then come back to rail. WPA only states that if ball leaves the rail and then comes back to contact, that is OK. A literal reading of that wold mean that if the OB drifted 1/16" off the rail and then rolled back to contact again, the hit would be legal. I am not sure if that is the intent or not?

3. Situation 3 - OB frozen to rail, CB frozen to OB but not to the rail

This one i am not clear on at all and cannot find a direct reference on the rules. I seem to recall in the distant past a discussion about this and something saying to the effect that if the OB is frozen to the rail and the CB frozen to the OB, then the CB is assumed to be frozen to the rail also, and the rule would be the same as situation 2 above. However that may just be a dream.

Does anybody know for sure what the rule is in this case?

I hope we can hold this thread to a discussion of what the rules are and not what they should be or why they are bad.

CueTable Help

 

[pooltchr]

You are close on 1 and 2. The only ball ever required to get to another rail or pocked is a ball that is frozen to a rail. So if the object ball and cue ball are frozen to the foot rail, any other ball making it to the foot rail after legal contact would make it a good shot.

I'm not sure where you heard that a cue ball frozen to another ball which is frozen to the rail is considered also frozen to the rail, but I am not aware of any rule that would back this up. If the cue ball isn't touching the rail, it doesn't matter what else it is touching, that cue ball is not frozen to a rail. Frozen means it's actually touching. You can be frozen to another ball and not frozen to a rail.

Steve

 

[GADawg]

You are close on 1 and 2. The only ball ever required to get to another rail or pocked is a ball that is frozen to a rail. So if the object ball and cue ball are frozen to the foot rail, any other ball making it to the foot rail after legal contact would make it a good shot.

I'm not sure where you heard that a cue ball frozen to another ball which is frozen to the rail is considered also frozen to the rail, but I am not aware of any rule that would back this up. If the cue ball isn't touching the rail, it doesn't matter what else it is touching, that cue ball is not frozen to a rail. Frozen means it's actually touching. You can be frozen to another ball and not frozen to a rail.

Steve

Steve -

thanks. In the first case, I knew that but did not say it. Another ball can hit any rail and be ok.

For case three, I am happy to hear your answer as it make logical sense to me. I don't now where I got that other idea. Either a bad dream or some rules I say for some other game liek snooker or black ball or something. At this point I don't care.

anyway, thanks again

 

[Patrick Johnson]

2. Situation 2 - OB and CB frozen to same rail

To get legal hit after CB contact with OB, 1) some ball must be pocketed or 2) CB or OB or any other ball must contact one of the other 3 rails that theOB/CB were not frozen to or 3) OB or CB can leave the rail frozen to, contact a third ball(like the 6 ball on the table) and come back to contact the same rail again.

This was probably an oversight, but I noticed you only specified the part in blue for Situation 2. I'm sure it would apply to all situations.

pj
chgo

Edit: By the way, I don't think it's necessary for a third ball to be involved. For instance, with the CB and OB frozen together and both frozen to the rail, I think it would be legal to shoot straight away from the rail (with just enough angle to move the OB and get the "hit") with extreme masse so the CB returns to the same rail without hitting any other ball.

 

[GADawg]

This was probably an oversight, but I noticed you only specified the part in blue for Situation 2. I'm sure it would apply to all situations.

pj
chgo

You are correct. thanks

 

[poolboy17]

3. Situation 3 - OB frozen to rail, CB frozen to OB but not to the rail

This one i am not clear on at all and cannot find a direct reference on the rules. I seem to recall in the distant past a discussion about this and something saying to the effect that if the OB is frozen to the rail and the CB frozen to the OB, then the CB is assumed to be frozen to the rail also, and the rule would be the same as situation 2 above. However that may just be a dream.

Does anybody know for sure what the rule is in this case?

You won't find a rule stating this because it's transparent. By not having a rule stating it IS frozen to the rail you are saying it is not frozen to the rail (hope that makes sense) . The cueball would only be considered to be frozen to the rail if it were in direct contact with the rail. The cueball would be considered frozen to the ball but not the rail.

Any rules applying to the cueball and object ball being frozen would apply.