LET GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[One Pocket John]

SurfTopics, thank you for your posts. You have described the pool stick action (pull)
better than I ever could.

I am guilty of pushing the cue thru the stoke most of my pool playing career with some success. But have adapted the pulling stroke into my fundamentals and very happy with the results.

Yeah, I hear ya. On rail shots the extension must be removed, that's why I use a slip-on extension.

I couldn't find a cue maker that would build an extension to my specs, so I designed and built one here at home. My extension is 8-1/2" long and has a 3" 3oz weight in the very end.

Once you get the hang of letting that 3oz weight lag behind the forearms lead you start to understand what it means to "let the cue" play the game. A very loose grip on the cue is required for maximum feel of the weight behind your grip hand.

Note: If you should decide to use an extension any factory weight in the butt of the cue must be removed. You want to feel the weight behind your hand, not in it.

Welcome to the discussion.

John

 

[evergruven]

weight distribution in a cue is an interesting subject
I imagine there's no perfect balance for every shot
but I do think there's a unique balance for every person

 

[The_JV]

weight distribution in a cue is an interesting subject
I imagine there's no perfect balance for every shot
but I do think there's a unique balance for every person

I couldn't tell you the weight or balance point of either my previous player for the last 20yrs, or the current one I've had for the last couple of months. Much ado about nothing imho...

My grip hand ends up where it needs to be for the shot at hand. Keeping that in mind, fretting about balance point seems frivolous.

 

[SurfTopics]

I meant since the hand is close to the weight there would be more resistance to lateral backhand movement. We might be talking about the same thing.

I think the hand will always be close to the weight but it is more about where that weight/mass is.

When playing with standard cue length, which is what I do, I notice that when my stance is optimum (being slightly compact), I can stroke quite well and confidently through the cue ball with a nice throwing technique. (pulling the cue through the stroke)

However if I'm in a more stretched out stance and my back hand is at the end of the cue, I notice the stroke feels more like a pushing technique and is subject to unwanted steering of the cue tip.

If I were to put an extension on the back of the cue for the same stretched shot, the feeling of the shot is back to a pulling technique and the cue is less likely to steer away.

My examples really just points out pros and cons of the different strokes for different folks.

I don't mean to direct this thread to be about extensions but I do see their relevance in promoting a good pulling technique particularly for larger wing spans. It's my opinion that mid extensions can also be just as useful and do add more mass to the back of cue as the back of the cue is thicker and heavier than the extension added in the middle thus creating more mass behind the grip hand.

 

[straightline]

I think the assertion about pulling the cue is a valid tactile thing if only psychological.

 

[FranCrimi]

weight distribution in a cue is an interesting subject
I imagine there's no perfect balance for every shot
but I do think there's a unique balance for every person

Here's something to keep in mind about balance and weight distribution on cues: If it's all about ball pocketing for you, a little heavier in the butt end works well, but finessing shots will be more difficult. If you're more of a finesse player, then you may prefer less weight in the butt-end, but you'll have to pay attention to your ball pocketing.

 

[bbb]

since the thread is alittle off track but interesting
let me ask this question
i understand pulling the cue back
i can relate to pulling the cue forward although i think its semantics if you are pulling or pushing
but what are you doing as you go thru the cue ball??
pushing or pulling????
as an aside
when i got a tascarella cue its butt was little thicker than i was used to and its balance point was farther back than the cue i had been playing with
i immediately felt the cue helped to keep the cue on the shot line during my stroke
i now play with a mobly but it has weight bolts so i was able to get more weight in the butt to get a similar feel

 

[One Pocket John]

Physically pushing the cue is not needed to get thru the cue ball.

What is needed is to let the cue go thru the cue ball, this is due to the weight and mass of the cue behind the grip hand.

I’m enjoying this thread. Wish I knew a pro that uses an extension to talk about this subject.

John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The_JV]

but what are you doing as you go thru the cue ball??
pushing or pulling????

Speaking as someone who would never dream of throwing a cue. Once my forearm has gone passed vertical, I'm doing nothing other than holding the cue. The cue stops when my forearm cannot move forward anymore. Bear in mind I'm extremely low on the cue and remain down throughout the shot, so there's only so much forward travel my forearm has. So I'm neither pushing or pulling.

If the CB is very close to the OB then once passed vertical, I'm applying the brakes as hard as I can, so pulling against inertia. Usually I physically limit my stroke so it can't be anymore than a short 'pop' in those occassions. That said, I highly doubt anyone entertains throwing their cue when forward travel is of the outmost concern.

 

[SurfTopics]

since the thread is alittle off track but interesting
let me ask this question
i understand pulling the cue back
i can relate to pulling the cue forward although i think its semantics if you are pulling or pushing
but what are you doing as you go thru the cue ball??
pushing or pulling????
as an aside
when i got a tascarella cue its butt was little thicker than i was used to and its balance point was farther back than the cue i had been playing with
i immediately felt the cue helped to keep the cue on the shot line during my stroke
i now play with a mobly but it has weight bolts so i was able to get more weight in the butt to get a similar feel

I don't see it as semantics and do believe there is a dividing line of where the pull stops and the push begins. Namely in the wrist joint at the apex of its pendulum swing. During the forward stroke when the wrist is cocked back I would define this as a pull and if the wrist is cocked forward or locked then I would define that as a push. I can appreciate Straitghlines comment that this may all be psychological and perhaps it is but visualization is everything in this game.

In a throwing type stroke (slip stroke), you are timing the hit on the cue ball to where the pull has reached its apex and a momentary release of the cue takes place at the point of impact mitigating any unwanted steering from a locked or forward wrist. So a true slip stroke in its purest form there is no pushing or pulling at the time of impact.

these are just my own personal impressions of what we are discussing and I certainly am not claiming to be an authority on how to achieve a perfect stroke. I'm just sharing how I see it and these are tactile concepts that seem to work well for me. Using an extension warming up reinforces muscle memory when I am working on my stroke.

Timing can become tricky across the multitude of shots one might shoot and its easy to overrun the cue ball when playing position with spin.

 

[SurfTopics]

Check out Jesus Antencio's stroke in this match. The cue is fully released at time of impact on most of his shots.

 

[The_JV]

In a throwing type stroke (slip stroke), you are timing the hit on the cue ball to where the pull has reached its apex and a momentary release of the cue takes place at the point of impact mitigating any unwanted steering from a locked or forward wrist. So a true slip stroke in its purest form there is no pushing or pulling at the time of impact.

If that's the case then the whole process of releasing your grip on the cue is pointless.

You could sell the premise of the snake-oil*, 'if' the grip was released prior to point wherein the continued stroke may have negative effects on the cue path. Based on the discussion currently. That point of release would be at the portion of the swing where the player begins to push the cue rather than pull. Baically when the forearm passes through the vertical position during the shot. This would be well before CB contact.

*snake-oil: A theory wouldn't proven factual foundation.

 

[3kushn]

I think I've already expressed that above. I was wondering what you actually got from the discussion. Was it helpful to your progress and if so, how?

Long time ago I was questioning my grip pressure. Was it good, bad, too tight, too light? Soo when I have these questions I first search the experts advise. Doing this I saw "like holding a baby bird" "not too tight" "not too loose"
The baby bird was the closest thing I found to visualize this. But what bird species?? Humming Bird? Sparrow? or Condor? LOL

So I did my own experimenting from death grip to cradling with only my index finger in contact. Stroking a CB with only the index finger was an eye opener but control was difficult. Sloppy. So then I took it the next step. Releasing/throwing the cue. WOW! Played about a year throwing or should we say with a Stroke Slip. My cues have no linen wrap and during that time I had removed my usual rubber grip.

Today, the grip is back on, my grip is very loose, and whether true or not I feel I make more shots this way than with a tighter grasp. My grip looks like most others but there's plenty of daylight.

The problem I have in the heat of action, is grip tightening and not noticing that's the change that caused the change.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

And now for something completely different...

I practiced a loose grip for many years, but always fought the tendency to "clench" during the stroke on more forceful shots. The solution for me was a slightly tighter grip, loose enough for finesse at slower speeds yet snug enough so I wouldn't feel the need to tighten it for faster shots. The same objective (no late-stroke grip effects) achieved the opposite way. I also like the feedback I get having grip contact through impact - it's an essential part of my speed sense.

pj
chgo

 

[SurfTopics]

If that's the case then the whole process of releasing your grip on the cue is pointless.

You could sell the premise of the snake-oil*, 'if' the grip was released prior to point wherein the continued stroke may have negative effects on the cue path. Based on the discussion currently. That point of release would be at the portion of the swing where the player begins to push the cue rather than pull. Baically when the forearm passes through the vertical position during the shot. This would be well before CB contact.

*snake-oil: A theory wouldn't proven factual foundation.

My inadequate articulation of the exact 'point of impact' doesn't equate to a selling of snake oil but I will try to clarify.

In a free swinging pendulum, the highest point of speed is at the vertical axis. So to 'accelerate' through the cue ball you must make contact just prior to getting to that point, not after.

If you are 'muscling' for acceleration after the the forearm passed vertical, you are much more likely to have steering issues.

These are two very different stroke techniques and both are seen everywhere. However the first technique is the type that looks effortless while delivering plenty of power and control.

I entered this discussion giving my opinion on how I understand the throwing motion and how in virtually all cases the mass of an object thrown is typically behind the elbow, wrist, or hand and that adding mass in the back of the cue can be beneficial especially in building good muscle memory for pulling into the shot.

Try this experiment-
at address start with a soft shot and as you begin your forward stroke accelerate to as fast as you can.
do it once with a mental image of pulling through the acceleration and then do it with a mental image of pushing through the acceleration.

My guess is most people will have better control thinking pull rather than push regardless of a slip or no slip grip.

 

[One Pocket John]

Check out Jesus Antencio's stroke in this match. The cue is fully released at time of impact on most of his shots.

And check out the extension on his cue.

I can't remember what year Earl started using an extension but he really started something.

SVB visited with Earl, in NY for a week or so back in 2017 or 2018. I can only guess, but I would be willing to bet Shane asked Earl why he used an extension, Earl told him and now the rest is history.

Yup. The cue is released at impact but keep something in mind the shooter is pulling a lot of weight (from behind his grip hand) forward which means that when the cue is released the cue still keeps going forward until it's caught. When the cue is caught is dependent on the shot at hand.

Thanks for the video.

John

 

[EddieBme]

many times you will read advice about
"LET THE CUE DO THE WORK"
what do you all think about a "reverse " slip stoke
ie as you stroke forward let the cue slip in your hand and do the work
then grab it after contact
tim white a controversial instructor for reasons that had nothing to do with his instructions
stroked like this
your thoughts

World champion Jeremy Jones is one to watch if you want to see what cradling a cue looks like, and letting the cue do the work.

 

[The_JV]

again... releasing the cue at the point of contact or millimeters prior to, will produce none of the claimed benefits of a slip stroke (throw).

The point is to eliminate the potential stroking errors during the "push" portion of the stroke. If this is not the case, and I have it all wrong. Please someone explain what possible benefit comes from letting the cue slide through you hand once you've made contact with the ball.

 

[evergruven]

I couldn't tell you the weight or balance point of either my previous player for the last 20yrs, or the current one I've had for the last couple of months. Much ado about nothing imho...

My grip hand ends up where it needs to be for the shot at hand. Keeping that in mind, fretting about balance point seems frivolous.

I've played great pool off the wall
and I've played poorly with my main cue
balance point might seem frivolous to you
to me, I think it can be quite important
I think there's merit to both our opinions
humans, we're very good at adapting
but in many ways, we are all unique
so-
where we can customize cues so easily
why not figure out what works best for us
and employ it?

 

[evergruven]

World champion Jeremy Jones is one to watch if you want to see what cradling a cue looks like, and letting the cue do the work.

an aside..I'm a fan of double j, but is he a world champ?