Liar, Liar case on fire...
- Thread starter classiccues
- Start date
A blem? A defect?
Hmmmmm.
Yeah....I still don't like you burning it. But I guess it takes some of the sting out of it.
Carry on gentlemen.
.
Made in China by an American
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0rnEXSZ2A
Try getting one of these made in America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0rnEXSZ2A
Try getting one of these made in America
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Chris,
Where you obtain your base materials cannot be helped. There is no american ebony, or American Rosewood, etc... But what you can be aware of is the human rights violations in other countries such as China, and as seen recently in Bangladesh. I guess if you can look past child labor, the consumption of certain domesticated animals, poor worker conditions, then more power to you.
Whats saving a buck if it comes on the back of a 6 or 8 year old, or some schlep working a 60 hour week for 5 dollars american?
Outta sight, outta mind, isn't that the saying?
JV
So um, if you use ivory you are condoning the abuses in the ivory trade? Exotic hardwoods come from rainforest devastation and widespread abuses.
We could go down the list of materials and find that just about all of them are connected to abuse of people and the environment on some level or another.
But let me ask you how it is that you think reforms come about? I think reforms come about through tragedy and activism. What would India and China look like if they had NO business from Western companies? Do you think it would be better or worse for the citizens of those countries.
I ask because you speak as if you actually care for the people in China and yet when I asked you if you would kill ten million of them in an instant if you could have full employment in the USA you said absolutely yes that you would murder ten million people in China just to give people jobs in the USA. I can't reconcile that with caring about the working environment of anyone. You care if people in China have good working conditions but would kill them if you could?
And the eating of domesticated animals? You mean like pigs and cows because those are domesticated animals. Or the eating of veal, you know those cute little calves that are chained to their huts and never allowed to even get up so that their muscles never develop and remains tender.
Or perhaps you mean chickens that are kept in filthy conditions and genetically modified to grow as mutated blobs that can't even walk but a few steps? Those are domesticated animals Joe.
I am not quite following your logic here. Perhaps you are concerned for the farm workers in Florida who harvest your tomatoes who are beaten and locked up if they try to escape.
Let's see in the past thirty years both India and China have seen a vast amount of their people rising out of poverty due to trade with the west. Now the new generations are better educated and more willing and able to tackle the social issues and the working conditions. As the work force becomes more skilled and more educated they are able to demand change.
But it seems that you would prefer that they either instantly change their entire countries to fit the standards of American factories OR if they can't do that then they should go back to being in abject poverty and having millions die each year from starvation and disease.
These countries are far behind the USA in reforms. Look up Triangle Shirtwaist Fire to see where America once was. And if you don't think that America still has sweatshops you are sadly mistaken. Beyond the illicit sweatshops that run in Los Angeles and New York City and perhaps other cities there are lots of employers in the USA who run their shops in abusive and illegal ways. I don't see you crusading against them.
To end this I don't run a sweatshop.
My employees work 8 hours a day, with a one hour lunch break. They can come and go as they please and all of them have health insurance. We work in a well lit and well ventilated space and no one is forced to do any job that they do not want to do.
They also share in the profits when we have profit. They get credit for the work they do. And most of them are wealthier than I am.
It would be a shame if this topic goes into another round of globalization debates but we can go anywhere you want to go.
As I have said before I would much rather that the Chinese people be building toys than building bombs.
To keep the thread on track though I promise that no dogs will be harmed in the burn test on the GTF case.
If I have this right, buying a case from John is somehow exploiting the workers, but buying ANY computer, cell phone, car, etc. is not? I believe that Chinese labor is used in ALL of these products that we all own. If I could get the same thing "made in America" as I could get elsewhere, of the same quality, and for the same price, I would. But, as we ALL own things that have been made from parts from the country in question, why should I pay a very large increase in price to buy something here? I guess the "Outta sight, outta mind" only applies to the pool industry? Let me know when your heart next bleeds for the child laborer when you're buying your next Ipad, Iphone, cell phone, etc. Hell, throw in most of your clothing as well.
Chris
All those things are factored into all my purchases. I am one of a growing list of people that do what they can. It is impossible to completely avoid, that is without question. Staying out of Walmart and other big retail stores helps.
You will probably never get something made in America as cheaply as made somewhere else because the economies of both countries simply do not allow that to happen.
JV
Quite true. But that being the case (no pun intended), why should I buy something that is twice the price here? If there were to be a car that was 100% American made, it would cost 2 -5 times more than the ones made today. How many people do you think would "buy American" in that case? The fact is that this isn't about buying American or the plight of the workers. This is strictly about you and John. You may continue to attack each other as you wish, and I will keep buying the best cases I am able to, regardless of cost. And those come from John.
So all the people who work in Wal Mart and other retailers should suffer because of your poor economic sense?
Would you be willing to build a huge wall around the USA and never allow any form of trade between countries to happen?
What do you think happens to the dollars that are transferred to a foreign bank to pay invoices for foreign goods? Do you know WHY a foreign bank is willing to take those dollars?
I will tell you what happens and why they are willing to take them. Because they know that they can sell those dollars to someone who needs them to pay for something that they want from or in the USA.
Like for example, travel and expenses, booth space, machinery, college tuition and expenses, real estate, investment and the list goes on.
I find it interesting that you have no problem selling cues to people from around the world but if those people want to sell you a cue made in their country then it's not considered.
I feel that if a Chinese man stepped up to your booth with $10,000 and wanted to buy cues you would fawn all over him to get that money with zero question as to how he earned it. In fact I know a Chinese man who did just that and he was literally followed around the show by cue makers and dealers wanting a bit of the money he was spending.
There was no query about human rights and economics and the like when the green is flowing. Just yes sir no sir thank you very much sir.
JV,
While awaiting our next foray into the hypothetical, I was perusing the testimonials on John's website. I find it odd that you not only did a review on a case made in China, but gave it a very positive one. If I understood anything of what you have been saying in this thread, it is that we (we being US citizens) should all be doing our best to buy American. If that is true, why would you even do a review of a known Chinese made case? As you did give the case such a favorable review, were people who read it supposed to read but not buy? Please, help me to understand this.
Chris
While awaiting our next foray into the hypothetical, I was perusing the testimonials on John's website. I find it odd that you not only did a review on a case made in China, but gave it a very positive one. If I understood anything of what you have been saying in this thread, it is that we (we being US citizens) should all be doing our best to buy American. If that is true, why would you even do a review of a known Chinese made case? As you did give the case such a favorable review, were people who read it supposed to read but not buy? Please, help me to understand this.
Chris
The case on merits of it being a case were fine. Also during the review I stated very clearly this review is of the case, politics (country of origin) was not a factor.
Thee are times when you can put away your bias for any reason based on the circumstance.
However, knowing the price of a GTF, knowing the price of a Thomas, knowing what the case is supposed to do, and knowing how I handle my cues, as a consumer, I would buy the Thomas everytime.
JV
I see. So YOU would buy a Thomas every time, but with the review you left, and the fact that a Thomas is just a "bit" more expensive, most people would not do as you do. In essence, you told people to buy the case on merit. If you were as "Buy American" as you have stated in previous posts, you should never have agreed to do a review of the case. Once again, I guess it all comes down to what is convenient at the time.
Chris
Well with Walmarts documented trangressions both worldly and here at home, I find staying out of Walmart quite easily. It has nothing to do with economic sense.
Everyone is free to spend there money as they want. There is a price that comes with your "economic sense".
Thats right. Why? Because I feel custom made USA cues are the best cues in the world, period. Its why I won't take certain cues, and cases for that matter, as trade. I have customers from Taiwan, Japan, etc.. and they do not tell me how they made their money, nor is it my business. Because lets face it, if I had a Szamboti they had to have, and I asked them what they did, and they knew my economic stance, they could say anything they wanted to divert the truth and buy the cue anyways. Sorry, background checks are quite aways off.
I don't know who this Chinese man was, but why was HE BUYING AMERICAN if the Chinese cues and cases are so great?
JV
No, I didn't say BUY the case on merit. I said I reviewed the case on merit. It was a review of a product, not a sales pitch. When a critic reviews a resteraunt, he may not like that particular food, however he will still review that resteraunt with that bias aside as he owes it to his readers.
I have not done a Thomas case review, but I feel one might be coming.
JV
I feel that your restaurant analogy is a bit off. If the reviewer didn't like the fare, he wouldn't be able to make an unbiased review. And while you didn't state specifically to buy a GTF case, your review made anyone who read it have nothing but a positive view of GTF cases. Again, why would you do that for a case you knew to be made in China? You are quite emphatic that you would never buy such things for your business, so what was the purpose of the review?
Chris
Well thats where you and I will differ. There is no reason a professional cannot lay aside his preferences for the good of his job. Its done all the time, in fact any review needs to have someone with knowledge about the product and the ability to judge whatever they are critiquing on the product. Its why car reviews are written by car enthusiasts that might prefer a Ford, but can critique a Chevy.
JV
lol There is a great difference between doing a test on a car manufactured by a company you don't care for, and doing a review of something that you would never buy because of its country of origin. And as far as your comments go on that case, I see nothing mentioned regarding the country of origin, only that you and John have "had your differences." It's also the ONLY post from that thread that is unable to be read on this site any longer. Coincidence?
Chris
So punishing the employees is your idea of doing something for them?
I mean you can shop were you want to but Wal-Mart provides employment to not only hundreds of thousands of people who work directly for them but also for millions of people who supply Wal-Mart in every capacity.
Yours is misguided and not based on economics. Where you spend your money has no bearing at all on the economy.
It appears that money trumps morals for you. When it comes to selling cues you adopt a don't ask/don't tell policy.
He buys what he wants regardless of where it's made. He owns products from around the world including from China. And not only billiard gear, he wears a piece of jade around his neck that I think he said is worth about $50,000. No one here is saying that American cue makers are not the pinnacle of cue making. They are. But that's not what this is about.
It's about you being willing to sell to foreigners but wanting to shut all foreigners out of selling to the USA.
And when did you become a professional reviewer? What else have you reviewed? Can we see some links to those products?
Well for whatever reason you did it we are glad you did lay aside your morals and your bias and give the product a review based on the merits. I feel certain that your well done review helped us to sell more GTF cases and continues to help us. In fact I will see to it that your expert opinion is reposted in as many places as possible so that as many people as possible can benefit from your professional expertise.
I am sure that when and if you do a review of Thomas cases you will inform the readers that you are a Thomas dealer as that is the ethical thing to do.
There appears to be a glitch and the thread is no longer there after four years.
We copied the testimonial for use elsewhere so here it is for reference.
Joe Van Buren
GTF Cases... a review - 12-28-2007, 02:08 PM
Well well well, what do I have here....
A brandy new GTF case for review....
Let me start off by saying, anyone who knows RSB knows that John Barton and I have had our differences. So by no means am I schilling for his case design. In fact I probably hoped I could find a lot wrong so I could tell him he can't even copy worth damn.. but that is not the case, no pun intended.
I have a smooth leather 1 x 2 GTF case. So let me begin my review...
Presentation is very nice.. the bag it came in is very nice. A product tag, a key ring with key and swatch of leather. I have to say, this part is really well done. Grade A
Latch: Now everyone knows any latch John picks out is suspect. But this is a nice brushed brass tone latch that does the job. The latch also has definition, little extra accent on the ends. The key works, one revolution clockwise to lock, counter to unlock. So far so good after 12 times. The latch on mine is attached via screws so if I needed to I could remove the latch with minimal effort. I could say that they should be riveted. But lets face reality, on all these style of cases you can pry the latch off with no problem. Grade: A, if it starts failing D.
Leatherwork: The seam is very good, the ends are very good. In fact the ends are finished nicer than the Kelli I have and the Fellini. I will use it and see how it all stays together, but right now its very, very clean. Grade A
Tube work: Cap: It looks like its a three piece cap. The extruded tube, and a top insert, and a cap. The cap is probably molded and has a rim that allows it to sit flush in the top of the tube. *guessing*This is probably a better design than a glued in cap. Plus I would think it would double as the bottom assembly. Case is longer than my Fellini.
Liner: The plush fabric is better than the thinner fabric. BUT I think its too tight. I know JB likes to turn his cases over and not have his cue hit the floor. However, I store my cues in these tube cases the following way: Shafts, tip up, butt screw down. Why? Less chalk in the tubes. It's a squeeze getting my cue in and I don't know if anything bad is happening while I do this. The butt swells the end of the case and the top needed to be finagled on. I will say I believe an older cue with a big butt is not going to fit into this case. Grade: B
What I would change. Move away from the Fellini style label. Stamp the ends, bottom of the case, get rid of the white label, the Fellini tag is iconic.
Overall this case is a low A - strong B.
All in all, the case seems to do what it is supposed to. I will use it for a few weeks then update my report. I cannot fathom any issues with such a simplistic case design. I look forward to seeing the 2 x 4 at some point.
JV
www.classiccues.com