Lifespan of a shaft?

I have a couple questions for Qbilder and Buckshot....
My favorite shaft on my main player is 46 years old.
I, from my player's perspective, feel that PLAYING with the cue helps keep
it good....the oil from your bridge hand conditions the wood...
...and the constant flexing keeps it supple.

Whaddiya think?


pt...enjoying the thread...but wishes he had a heart of oak :o
 
PMQuote:Originally Posted by*buckshotshoey*Tight grain means denser wood.

Prove it. That's the point of the post you quoted. If you believe it enough to preach it, then provide the evidence. Opinion and truth aren't always the same. Hearing it from me means as much as hearing it from anybody, but learning it for yourself trumps all.

You don't disagree with me? Then why the tone of this post? I DID take offense to the way this was worded. Anyway I'm over it. If I am am wrong, then explain why I'm wrong. That how we learn.
 
I thought this was proven already that growth rings have no causation on density, or a correlation?

Like I have said time & again, prove it. Show some provenance. That's all I ask. I'm not arguing with anybody, only asking them to provide factual evidence from a respected, non-biased source. I provided a link in my last post that provides plenty of basic info regarding wood and how it's comprised.

It is possible to compress the wood to cause wood to become 'denser'. That doesn't mean the structural integrity of the wood stays the same. What I'm saying is that the diameter of a shaft doesn't have to be sanded to reduce it. It can be reduced without removing material.

That's two completely different notions. Yes wood can be compressed. In fact, each species has a rating of compressive strength. Maple has a 7832psi rating http://www.ahec.org/publications/AHEC publications/AHEC SPECIES_English.pdf , which is the amount of compression it takes to structurally change the wood. Are you seriously going to tell me that you hit the cue ball with almost 4 tons, or squeeze the shaft with your bridge fingers that tightly? Because that's what it would have to be in order for your claim to be accurate.

Yes I do agree that a shaft should last forever assuming it's never hit, stored and cared for properly. But with any use, it will slowly be eaten away by the dirt and grim on your hand. Now assuming someone doesn't have any bad habits, always has clean hands. No reason that shaft should ever change.

I'm not here to argue. I don't want anybody taking my word for anything. I'd rather they educate themselves with some fact searching, so they know what to believe. A shaft doesn't shrink any more than the cue ball, which actually gets the full contact with chalk. The shaft only gets the transfer from your hand. Therefore, logic dictates that you aren't going to noticeably decrease the size of your shaft by playing with it. Contrarily, some may argue that your shaft actually grows when you play with it :D
 
I have a couple questions for Qbilder and Buckshot....
My favorite shaft on my main player is 46 years old.
I, from my player's perspective, feel that PLAYING with the cue helps keep
it good....the oil from your bridge hand conditions the wood...
...and the constant flexing keeps it supple.

Whaddiya think?


pt...enjoying the thread...but wishes he had a heart of oak :o

Flexing does nothing neither here nor there to keep the shaft in good shape. Your hand oils probably do, though. Oil provides a moisture barrier, which obviously is a good thing for shafts.
 
Thank you, gentlemen.
I have always found my cues by feel, and how they spin.
....but the more I learn may help me to find them quicker.

..on the other hand, feel worked for Byron Nelson....
...13 of his clubs were bang on by later developed swing weighting.
 
So your only source is a PBS broadcast on the subject? Glad that overrides my first hand knowledge on that subject. Good thing we settled that. And FYI the dark ages ended 300 years before the trees used in those instruments could have even started growing. The era is known as the little ice age. Another thing to be aware of, is that people have tried to recreate those instruments. None have produced the same tonal quality. Even same era instruments don't sound the same. It was something in the water during the transit of the woods from harvest to use that changed something about the

I have to admit when I am wrong. It was the" little ice age" era wood that was primarily used. But it wasn't the water in transport that treated the wood. It was done on purpose by the craftsman to kill wood worms. Wood ash/water suspension was one formula.

This is from National Geographic and is a pretty good read......
Instead, Grissino-Mayer and climatologist Lloyd Burckle of Columbia University in New York have come up with an alternative hypothesis. They suggest that climatic cooling over many decades affected rates of tree growth and may have contributed to the acoustic quality of the instrument. Dense wood with narrow growth rings may help to "instill a superior tone and brilliance in violins," the researchers wrote, adding that wood grown under fast conditions is less resonant and unlikely to survive the stresses placed on a violin."Much of Europe was gripped by the little ice age between around 1400 and 1800," said Grissino-Mayer, noting that the period of cold weather and long winters peaked between 1645 and 1715. Trees growing during that peak period, the so-called Maunder Minimum, "showed the slowest growth rates of the entire last 500 years," he said.Intriguingly, Stradivari was born one year before the start of the Maunder Minimum. He produced violins from 1666 until his death in 1737. Other studies have shown that Stradivari used violins built from spruce wood contemporary to his lifetime, and Grissino-Mayer believes this would have been locally obtained.

How does this apply to a pool cue? Dense, strait grained woods tend to be a better material for a cue shaft. Why maple? It is dense, hard, and still has flexibility.
 
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You don't disagree with me? Then why the tone of this post? I DID take offense to the way this was worded. Anyway I'm over it. If I am am wrong, then explain why I'm wrong. That how we learn.

I said I didn't disagree, nor did I agree. I merely asked you to provide factual data to support the blanket statement you made. I provided a link for you that will explain in general terms everything you need to know. And just because I asked you to prove it doesn't mean I was being aggressive. I'm merely being concise, not offensive. I believe good info can only be exchanged if the folks having the conversation are well informed and have sources to support their position. Opinion is a different animal altogether, and asking for provenance quickly eliminates opinion from a factual conversation. So I apologize if I came off as attacking you. I was merely asking in a direct way for you to credit your statement.

Early wood is the spurt of growth in the spring, after a mostly dormant winter. The growth is rapid at first, slowing as time passes & moisture becomes less available until it reaches winter again. The slow growth in summer and into winter is the late wood. The cells created during early wood growth are large, thin walled, and fragile, whereas the late wood cells are smaller and thicker walled. This means the late wood section of a growth ring is stronger, more dense. The wood becomes darker as the season goes, being lightest in spring and darkest in winter. Winter is indicated by the thin lines we know as grain lines, but really is only the winding down & transition between late wood and summer wood again.

What does that mean? In laments terms it means longer growing seasons, specifically extended summers, produces the strongest, heaviest wood. That's the science of it. My own personal experiences mirror the science. I log & mill a lot of my own maple. I cut in MI, WI, OH, KY, & WV. I typically cut in OH and WI. Without a doubt, the region makes the least of difference. In fact, I haven't noticed where any region produces better wood than any other. What I have found is that the specific tract, immediate habitat, dictates everything. Thus far, the places that have given me the best wood are dry, well drained slopes in the shade of larger trees, regardless of region. Wood from these areas tend to be heavy, stiff, hard, with nearly indistinct grain lines. In other words, it mimics the science. Further yet, it's relevant to fast and slow growth, so I conclude that growth rate plays minimal role by itself. Most important is quality of grain, not number of grains. That's why I neither agreed nor disagreed with you. A high grain count could be good, or it could be bad. It really depends on other things.
 
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qbuilder. I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. I initially thought this thread would degrade into the obnoxious bickering that plagues so

many other threads. Instead, I think a lot of people became aware of how potentially different the playing/physical characteristics of shaft wood

are from what they've come to understand through random posts, discussions in bars, or other means. I've discussed wood with several cue

makers and cue aficionados over the years and much of what they told me coincides with what you've posted. There was other information that I

had not heard of and now I am motivated to explore the links you've provided and others. I look forward to the day that I can have a list of

credible sources and links representative of my understanding that I can text or email people genuinely interested in this topic. It would be a

welcomed relief from falling into the sometimes fruitless discussions that feel like a waste of time. Nice cues and thanks for posting.
 
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I said I didn't disagree, nor did I agree. I merely asked you to provide factual data to support the blanket statement you made. I provided a link for you that will explain in general terms everything you need to know. And just because I asked you to prove it doesn't mean I was being aggressive. I'm merely being concise, not offensive. I believe good info can only be exchanged if the folks having the conversation are well informed and have sources to support their position. Opinion is a different animal altogether, and asking for provenance quickly eliminates opinion from a factual conversation. So I apologize if I came off as attacking you. I was merely asking in a direct way for you to credit your statement.

Early wood is the spurt of growth in the spring, after a mostly dormant winter. The growth is rapid at first, slowing as time passes & moisture becomes less available until it reaches winter again. The slow growth in summer and into winter is the late wood. The cells created during early wood growth are large, thin walled, and fragile, whereas the late wood cells are smaller and thicker walled. This means the late wood section of a growth ring is stronger, more dense. The wood becomes darker as the season goes, being lightest in spring and darkest in winter. Winter is indicated by the thin lines we know as grain lines, but really is only the winding down & transition between late wood and summer wood again.

What does that mean? In laments terms it means longer growing seasons, specifically extended summers, produces the strongest, heaviest wood. That's the science of it. My own personal experiences mirror the science. I log & mill a lot of my own maple. I cut in MI, WI, OH, KY, & WV. I typically cut in OH and WI. Without a doubt, the region makes the least of difference. In fact, I haven't noticed where any region produces better wood than any other. What I have found is that the specific tract, immediate habitat, dictates everything. Thus far, the places that have given me the best wood are dry, well drained slopes in the shade of larger trees, regardless of region. Wood from these areas tend to be heavy, stiff, hard, with nearly indistinct grain lines. In other words, it mimics the science. Further yet, it's relevant to fast and slow growth, so I conclude that growth rate plays minimal role by itself. Most important is quality of grain, not number of grains. That's why I neither agreed nor disagreed with you. A high grain count could be good, or it could be bad. It really depends on other things.

Good post. That's what I was looking for. I have learned some about grain structures. Its actually kind of interesting. Especially some of the microscopic pics I found. I can see where I was technically correct, but vague.
 
I'm not an expert on wood, but after repeated impacts and flexing, the fibers in the wood have to wear down eventually. This time frame might be longer than anyone could conceivably use a shaft, but I doubt there have been many studies that show one way or the other.
 
I'm not an expert on wood, but after repeated impacts and flexing, the fibers in the wood have to wear down eventually. This time frame might be longer than anyone could conceivably use a shaft, but I doubt there have been many studies that show one way or the other.

Are you sure about that? There is a LOT of research done on wood fiber composition, strength, durability, etc. An individual wood fiber can be separated and broken in a machine in order to test how much force is required to snap it. Have you ever pushed your shaft into the table out of frustration and heard one small little popping sound? What about twisting the shaft too tight or perhaps if the joint seized and during trying to untwist it you heard one tiny little pop (almost a snap sound)? That was one individual fiber breaking. It takes more force to break a fiber than some think. I have heard a fiber pop during torquing a joint or side pressure of a shaft, but never from hitting a ball. I have been in a laboratory that was breaking fibers. Pretty neat stuff.

A soundly built timber bridge can last over 90 years. With relatively recent advancements in forest product research, perhaps much longer. That is with vehicles driving over them. That pales in comparison to what stress a pool shaft undergoes from normal play. With normal play, side pressure on a shaft should be very minimal. Obviously, the shaft must be properly cared for. It must be properly stored. It may be that shafts undergo changes over its lifetime that could affect play. The simple absorption of human oils from the hand might minutely affect things. Perhaps repeated compression impacts has a microscopic affect on cell structure. But...fibers wearing down? I personally don't believe it. They either break or don't, they either split apart or don't. I don't think the cellular cohesion simply wears out.
 
Are you sure about that? There is a LOT of research done on wood fiber composition, strength, durability, etc. An individual wood fiber can be separated and broken in a machine in order to test how much force is required to snap it. Have you ever pushed your shaft into the table out of frustration and heard one small little popping sound? What about twisting the shaft too tight or perhaps if the joint seized and during trying to untwist it you heard one tiny little pop (almost a snap sound)? That was one individual fiber breaking. It takes more force to break a fiber than some think. I have heard a fiber pop during torquing a joint or side pressure of a shaft, but never from hitting a ball. I have been in a laboratory that was breaking fibers. Pretty neat stuff.

A soundly built timber bridge can last over 90 years. With relatively recent advancements in forest product research, perhaps much longer. That is with vehicles driving over them. That pales in comparison to what stress a pool shaft undergoes from normal play. With normal play, side pressure on a shaft should be very minimal. Obviously, the shaft must be properly cared for. It must be properly stored. It may be that shafts undergo changes over its lifetime that could affect play. The simple absorption of human oils from the hand might minutely affect things. Perhaps repeated compression impacts has a microscopic affect on cell structure. But...fibers wearing down? I personally don't believe it. They either break or don't, they either split apart or don't. I don't think the cellular cohesion simply wears out.

Fibers wearing down = individual fibers breaking over a long period of time.

I am sure the cellulose breaks down eventually as well, but that is probably an even longer term process.

Any material will wear down under repeated stress even only slight stress, its just a matter of how much the material can take. Wood, being a very durable and reasonably elastic obviously can take a lot, but its not indestructible.

As you said, bridges can last a century, but they wear out eventually, as does everything.
 
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