dirtvictim
Ignore the entitled they haven't earned respect
No one is saying it's on all cues. I just think it's a good idea to have a consensus that would help everyone, buyer and seller.
Lift verses Warp
- Thread starter dirtvictim
- Start date
Not going to get .into definition wars since I’ve never been clear how to define error unless with both ends of a section (shaft or butt) dialed in at each end between centers. Then indicate run-out at various stations with a DTI. You can’t dial ina whole cue because of sag induced by gravity.
or sight it like Mr Mosconi describes. Rolling may be informative rather than definitive - if the roller actually knows what they are looking at.
The point I want to make is that a cue, or primarily the butt, rolls according to the cuemaker’s taper.
MIne roll straight, most with the sleeve end a good 1/16“ or so off the table. This is because my handle sections are nearly straight. Yet the forearm has a slight hollow taper down to the joint. So the bearing points for a roll are at the joint, and about 8” up from the butt cap end.
A shaft (like mine) with hyperbolic taper into a slight pro section will roll hollow with the center never touching the table between the joint & the tip. Most people are aware of that. I would have thought that would be the “taper lift” description rather than a euphemism for warp? Mine actually have a nearly straight section for a inch or 2 after the joint before the taper starts. So some roll on a point slightly forward of the joint face (joint face rolls slightly above the table).
course I make very few cues & none are valuable or collectible.
nonetheless, anyone rolling cues around on a table for qualification ought to have some better than superficial insight/concept of the actual profile geometry for any specific cue.
smt
or sight it like Mr Mosconi describes. Rolling may be informative rather than definitive - if the roller actually knows what they are looking at.
The point I want to make is that a cue, or primarily the butt, rolls according to the cuemaker’s taper.
MIne roll straight, most with the sleeve end a good 1/16“ or so off the table. This is because my handle sections are nearly straight. Yet the forearm has a slight hollow taper down to the joint. So the bearing points for a roll are at the joint, and about 8” up from the butt cap end.
A shaft (like mine) with hyperbolic taper into a slight pro section will roll hollow with the center never touching the table between the joint & the tip. Most people are aware of that. I would have thought that would be the “taper lift” description rather than a euphemism for warp? Mine actually have a nearly straight section for a inch or 2 after the joint before the taper starts. So some roll on a point slightly forward of the joint face (joint face rolls slightly above the table).
course I make very few cues & none are valuable or collectible.
nonetheless, anyone rolling cues around on a table for qualification ought to have some better than superficial insight/concept of the actual profile geometry for any specific cue.
smt
Ok here ya go, cues with any kind of roll are not "worth" as much as the exact or substantially similar cue without a roll, sometimes significantly. There are makers who spend years seasoning and turning down their shaft wood and throw away more of it than final shafts that they build. Does that guarantee that that shaft won't move, no. But it does dramatically decrease it's chances, if taken care of that shafts that aren't built with that kind of attention. Those cue makers cues are ultimately more sought after, and not always extremely more expensive. As for "lifts" in the butt, the same goes value wise and but for the construction techniques and materials used, can also dramatically decrease the chances of any type of lift occuring in the future.
dirtvictim
Ignore the entitled they haven't earned respect
I totally get where you are coming from but it really doesn't address the standards I believe we need.
I had a Hightower lathe and was doing repair back in the 90's so I am familiar with a fair amount of processes.
Just trying to get everyone on the same page with regards to lift and warp definitions to help all buyers and sellers. One would think that everyone would be on board with creating a set of basic standards.
Warp (Roll) - The wood itself moves (warps) to a different direction other than straight. Most times American pool cues have a more pro taper so you will see light under the middle of the shaft when rolling on a table. An indication of a roll or warp is the light seems to move up and down. Some call that a "taper roll" which means the shaft is warped. Of course then if the tip or collar pull off the table that's even more extreme. You can also have shafts with multiple warps in them. Pretty common with older shafts that have seen "a lot".
Lift - The same but talking more about the butt section usually happening in the handle or forearm causing the joint or butt end to lift when rolling. It is also common anywhere there is a flat face connection like where the handle meets the forearm or butt sleeve.
If it's got a "warp/roll" or a "lift" it's value is determined by how bad the defect is and how desirable the cue is. In a butt, it affects it significantly because it would take disassembly and/or replacement of parts to correct which would be costly and in many collectable cues not possible because the maker is not making cues anymore. Shafts on the other hand, depending on how bad the warp, can possibly be "worked" and corrected.
Not sure if that's what you're talking about but I took a stab
A few points may be in order. One, it depends on how you store your cue. Upright in a case, not against an outside wall is good. No temperature variation to worry about. If your shaft has nickel rings, and has been stored improperly, there may be some uneven lift in the rings through the finish that you think is a bit of roll or warp.
Two, take that cue out, and play it some. Give it some movement. Don't let it sit for one position and take a "set" where it might seem to have a bit of roll to it. If you don't believe that, look up the Youtube video with Ernie Gutierez talking about straightness.
Three, pay attention to the tip. If it has some mushroom, and you roll that shaft on the table, you might see a bit of warp, when it was the fault of the tip, possibly uneven.
I have shafts that pass the complete test. We may be splitting hairs, but these points needed to be made.
All the best,
WW
Todays simple lesson, no Pool Table is flat so stop rolling on them.
Roll them with the butt on the table, shaft over the rail and watch the tip.
I have an old Brunswick Anniversary that is about as level as can be but no matter how level, the slates are +/- .020".
Roll them with the butt on the table, shaft over the rail and watch the tip.
I have an old Brunswick Anniversary that is about as level as can be but no matter how level, the slates are +/- .020".
dirtvictim
Ignore the entitled they haven't earned respect
I use a 2" thick butcher block table I surfaced on a 3 axis cnc back when I worked in the sign industry. As flat as it gets. I check it occasionally and it's never been off yet so if a cue rolls straight on it when I take it to a table it's even better.
I believe the only true way to test shaft and butt straightness is between centers on a lathe. You can get a good look at how straight the entire cue is by using the rail technique as CuesDirectly suggested but that technique can also show a false negative as well if the facing of the shaft and or joint are off.
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dirtvictim
Ignore the entitled they haven't earned respect
Agreed a lathe is the only true way to be exact however the average Joe doesn't have access to a lathe which is why a need for a standard arises. There is no negative side to developing a good practical guide to follow so let's do it.
Theres a video on Youtoob titled warped vs straight cue, and that guy rolls both cues, shoots with both cues and makes the same shots with both cues. But for sale or resale values, it will always be warped and worth 1/3 the original price!
this is the BEST way to describe the cue buying/selling world in relation to cue straightness. How many people selling cues in the $1,000 to $6,000 range are going to say that a cue is warped? NONE- unless it is a junked out cue being sold "as is". any custom cue buyers here successfully returned cues to seller BC there was a straightness dispute?
I know I certainly got scammed by a polished turd named Ryan Tart out of Georgia when I was sent a forearm warped cue that was supposed to be in a issue of billiards digest, which it wasn't. And I told him the trade was off cuz the cue was warped and long story short, he got a Dave Kikel, a John Davis-Steve Dunkel conversion, a Chad McLennan CAM and a little predator sneaky pete and I got to keep a warped cue! So no sir, I certainly did not successfully return a cue because of straightness! Now I'm sad again...
Good general test but it still doesnt show the straightness of each individual part. The refacing of the shaft or butt can "correct" a cue that's a little off and show as straight using this method.
To me it's simple.., roll, warp, lift, may or may not affect play but they can drastically affect value.
And YES, there are plenty of straight shafts out there.
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