Live threading question

[gluton1]

I have a project that I'm in the middle of and I have to thread a wood tennon. I've tried threading with a regular threading tool but it keeps chipping out the wood. I'm looking for a bit that would do live threading, something that I can run in a router on the lathe. I know that they exist but having trouble locating them. Does anybody have any suggestions and where I can get one? Thanks in advance

 

[JoeyInCali]

http://www.micro100.com/inch/tm_brazed.html
http://travers.com/product.asp?Requ...2////UserSearch1=eaprodid+'101313-21-100-981'

 

[JerseyBill]

thread bit

I have a project that I'm in the middle of and I have to thread a wood tennon. I've tried threading with a regular threading tool but it keeps chipping out the wood. I'm looking for a bit that would do live threading, something that I can run in a router on the lathe. I know that they exist but having trouble locating them. Does anybody have any suggestions and where I can get one? Thanks in advance

I know people buy them already made, but I had mine made from a machinist and my friend advised me to do that. He's very experienced and I'm sure there was a reason.
maybe try MSC.
Bill

 

[JerseyBill]

thread cutters

http://www.micro100.com/inch/tm_brazed.html
http://travers.com/product.asp?Requ...2////UserSearch1=eaprodid+'101313-21-100-981'

Joey,
I notice that these have multi fluted tips. Mine has only one flute?? Looks kinda like a woodpecker? lol
I have a larger one too for outside threads.
Bill

 

[pescadoman]

Joey,
I notice that these have multi fluted tips. Mine has only one flute?? Looks kinda like a woodpecker? lol
Bill

I wouldn't want one with one flute. It makes sense to me that balance would be an issue.


I have the micro 100 and it works awesome.

 

[conetip]

Nothing wrong with single point tools.
There may be more tendency to vibrate if it is extended out an excessive amount, but reducing the rpm will solve that problem.
You want the cutter to cut, not rub and get more dull by the moment.
For some tools, single point cutters are the most economical for the job.
There are also other advantages to single point tools as well.
Neil

 

[cueman]

Nothing wrong with single point tools.
There may be more tendency to vibrate if it is extended out an excessive amount, but reducing the rpm will solve that problem.
You want the cutter to cut, not rub and get more dull by the moment.
For some tools, single point cutters are the most economical for the job.
There are also other advantages to single point tools as well.
Neil

I agree with Neil here. The major advantage to single flute thread mills is that you can mill internal threads that you would not even be able to get the multi-flute cutters into and back out without tearing the threads up. For external threading the multi-flute cutters are fine and have advantages also like less vibration and possible cleaner cut.

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

Live threading very cool but is a world that I don't participate in to build my cues but I got to say that the threads that Joey cuts on his tenons are the best I have seen in wood.

Those multi fluked micros are just what the doctor ordered for Todd as he is doing a tenon thread on his repair project. Todd also threads the ferrules on his cues and I am sure that the cost for the new tool will be amortize over a very long period of time as I think his tenon die will start gathering moss.

Rick

 

[MVPCues]

....Todd also threads the ferrules on his cues and I am sure that the cost for the new tool will be amortize over a very long period of time as I think his tenon die will start gathering moss.

Rick

We probably don't need yet another live threading versus thread, but since you just mentioned amortizing the cost of a thread mill over time, I feel compelled to mention something that I don't think has been hit on.

I recently made a custom shaft for a customer's scorpion cue. As most of you probably know, the pin is something like 9mm-14. I certainly don't have a tap for that thread, nor did I need to buy one. With some of the estimates I have seen here for special custom made taps, my thread mill more than paid for itself immediately. If I need a maintenance pin for a particular shaft, provided it isn't something like the radial pin, I can also make one of those in a pinch.

I have seen people say they can't afford live threading. I won't knock that, we all set our priorities and do what we can. I also am not knocking the value of having a variety of taps. But, my thread mill paid for itself with just that one use....just saying.

Kelly

 

[Cgra2]

I read an article in a book on cuebuilding that was posted on the web (its no longer on), and it was written by a very popular cuemaker, about thread mills. In this article he said he had tried multi flute live threading tools but the ones he made where he silver brazed a piece of carbide on the end of a carbide shank with one cutting tooth ground on it, did the best job, this book was several years old.

I made my own out of 1/4" oil hardening drill rod. Turned a 60 degree button on the end with a 1/8 shank and at first filed four cutting teeth in the 60 degree form. It worked but didn't look good so I made another on a milling machine with a dividing head, it looked much better and is holding up well after cutting a couple of dozen threads in maple and purple heart. The oil hardening drill hardens to about 60-65 rockwell. I did have to go back and thin the 60 degree down to almost a sharp point, because when I was cutting 3/8 X 10 threads the tool is is actually going through the wood slightly side ways and makes a little wider groove than the tool actually was.. If you take several passes at about .005 it cuts a good thread.. you have to go really slow and try it with the 3/8 X 10 joint pin, preferably the one you are going to use when you get close, for a good fit.. I will try to post a picture of it soon..

 

[JerseyBill]

single flute

I wouldn't want one with one flute. It makes sense to me that balance would be an issue.


I have the micro 100 and it works awesome.

Yes, but for internal thread of shaft it is smaller and can fit inside shaft.

 

[Canadian cue]

I have three. Two are from micro 100 . One is for internal which is smaller and one is for external threading and it can be bigger. For long sections of external thread where it goes beyond the reach of this style of tool you can use a carbide router bit with a 60 deg on the end.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=41791&cat=1,43000

 

[dzcues]

4 flutes fit, too.

The major advantage to single flute thread mills is that you can mill internal threads that you would not even be able to get the multi-flute cutters into and back out without tearing the threads up.

Yes, but for internal thread of shaft it is smaller and can fit inside shaft.

I applaud your home-brewed solutions but I don't see an advantage to single point threading tools over multi-flute. It can't be the size because I have no problem fitting a 1/4" dia, 4 flute thread mill into a ferrule with a .257" hole & threading it 5/16-14. It fits even easier in a shaft for 3/8-10. Plus, I have the advantage of 4X the cutting surfaces over a single point tool.

In this video I cut 3/8-10 shaft threads more-or-less the conventional way.

In this video, I cut 3/8-10 threads, starting from the bottom of the hole & threading out. I also use an endmill to face & bore the hole.

I'm not arguing with your single point results...I just don't want others to get the impression that multi-flute cutters won't work in these situations. They will.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I applaud your home-brewed solutions but I don't see an advantage to single point threading tools over multi-flute. It can't be the size because I have no problem fitting a 1/4" dia, 4 flute thread mill into a ferrule with a .257" hole & threading it 5/16-14. It fits even easier in a shaft for 3/8-10. Plus, I have the advantage of 4X the cutting surfaces over a single point tool.

In this video I cut 3/8-10 shaft threads more-or-less the conventional way.

In this video, I cut 3/8-10 threads, starting from the bottom of the hole & threading out. I also use an endmill to face & bore the hole.

I'm not arguing with your single point results...I just don't want others to get the impression that multi-flute cutters won't work in these situations. They will.

Great videos DZ.
I have a custom grind threader. Head is .250" with .180" neck.
It can thread for pins with .308 minor easily.

 

[JerseyBill]

threads

I applaud your home-brewed solutions but I don't see an advantage to single point threading tools over multi-flute. It can't be the size because I have no problem fitting a 1/4" dia, 4 flute thread mill into a ferrule with a .257" hole & threading it 5/16-14. It fits even easier in a shaft for 3/8-10. Plus, I have the advantage of 4X the cutting surfaces over a single point tool.

In this video I cut 3/8-10 shaft threads more-or-less the conventional way.

In this video, I cut 3/8-10 threads, starting from the bottom of the hole & threading out. I also use an endmill to face & bore the hole.

I'm not arguing with your single point results...I just don't want others to get the impression that multi-flute cutters won't work in these situations. They will.

Can you show me a close up of the way your threads look, in and out? I might want to switch to your way of doing things. The video was impressive. You obviously are good at videos...
JerseyBill

 

[dzcues]

Can you show me a close up of the way your threads look, in and out? I might want to switch to your way of doing things. The video was impressive. You obviously are good at videos...
JerseyBill

Thanks. I have a website on which there are a few more videos & construction hints. The pic below shows a few samples of live tooled threads.

 

[cueman]

I applaud your home-brewed solutions but I don't see an advantage to single point threading tools over multi-flute. It can't be the size because I have no problem fitting a 1/4" dia, 4 flute thread mill into a ferrule with a .257" hole & threading it 5/16-14. It fits even easier in a shaft for 3/8-10. Plus, I have the advantage of 4X the cutting surfaces over a single point tool.

In this video I cut 3/8-10 shaft threads more-or-less the conventional way.

In this video, I cut 3/8-10 threads, starting from the bottom of the hole & threading out. I also use an endmill to face & bore the hole.

I'm not arguing with your single point results...I just don't want others to get the impression that multi-flute cutters won't work in these situations. They will.

Your video is really good showing how to use the 1/4" thread mill. Like the live broing and facing with the end mill. I do have a couple of questions.
Is the large part of the shank and the cutter diameter both 1/4"?
If so, then would that not produce threads that are angled slightly as the router would need to be held at an angle?
Does that cause any problems?
I have shyed away from the multi-flute version for deep threads as I was afraid the cocked threads would cause a problem. If they do not cause a problem then I think you may have the better method.

 

[dzcues]

Is the large part of the shank and the cutter diameter both 1/4"?
If so, then would that not produce threads that are angled slightly as the router would need to be held at an angle?
Does that cause any problems?

Both the shank & cutter head are 1/4" diameter. I hope you noted that the front part of the bore was enlarged to register the locating barrel on the joint pin. The attached sketch shows how everything fits in the hole.

These cutters have clearance built into them beneath the cutting edge & therefore do not need to be "tipped". If you can fit the tool into a hole, you can safely cut any reasonable thread without running into clearance problems.

There seems to be a misconception that was seized upon by this forum about the need to tip a router to match the helical angle of the thread. I forget who the perpetrator was but I recall the oohs & aahs when he said this & thinking "oh-oh". Since he touched upon a concept that was new to the forum, everyone accepted it as gospel. In this situation, he was completely wrong.

The ONLY time you need to tip your cutter is when the cutter has NO CLEARANCE. The best example I can think of is a Thread Grinding Machine, in which threads are machined using a large diameter grinding wheel. Since the wheel is one solid piece, it must be tipped to the exact helical angle deterimined by the diameter & pitch of the threads being ground.

To finally get around to answering your question, Chris, no, there are no problems with angled threads or clearance. You will kick yourself for not trying these sooner.

 

[conetip]

Thankyou to Bob for sharing and taking time to show how he does things.
When the cutter is not tipped to the helix angle of the thread being generated, the faces of the thread will be slightly concaved.
You can adjust the tool angle to get the average of the generated form to be close to the thread angle desired. It all depends on the thread pitch and lead and helix angle diameter of thread and the diameter of the cutter.(pitch and lead are only the same on single start threads)
By the way, this is independent of the number of teeth on the cutter.
People who do thread milling in a vertical cnc mill come across this quite often.
I think it is only academics that can tell the difference. In the real world of what the thread has to do, in the case of a joint ,I don't think there is any one who could tell that the pin was seating over the full face of the thread or one where it seats on the 2 high spots. When tightened enough, the wood will yield some and the screw will be very close to a full contact on those faces.
All the other threads in a cue are surrounded by a glue of some sort anyway, with clearance for the glue being used.
An advantage of the multi-tooth cutters is the ability to make the alternate teeth cut/form/generate the front face and then the rear face of the thread form.
This reduces the overall cutting forces on the cutter producing a cleaner cut.
Another great thread with some very good info being shared.
Neil

 

[dzcues]

When the cutter is not tipped to the helix angle of the thread being generated, the faces of the thread will be slightly concaved.
You can adjust the tool angle to get the average of the generated form to be close to the thread angle desired. It all depends on the thread pitch and lead and helix angle diameter of thread and the diameter of the cutter.(pitch and lead are only the same on single start threads)
By the way, this is independent of the number of teeth on the cutter.
People who do thread milling in a vertical cnc mill come across this quite often.
An advantage of the multi-tooth cutters is the ability to make the alternate teeth cut/form/generate the front face and then the rear face of the thread form.
This reduces the overall cutting forces on the cutter producing a cleaner cut.

Hi Neil,

I don't mean to be contentious & I'm always happy to learn something new...but I must admit that you pose some things I never heard of.

I've seen a lot of thread milling on all sorts of CNC machines, vertical & horizontal & I NEVER saw anyone adjust the tool angle. On most machines you cannot adjust it. Your tool MUST be aligned with both the spindle & the axis of its movement, otherwise, the thread form is no longer square to the axis of the thread.

As for staggered tooth thread mills, I've only seen that apply to "tap" style thread mills...not the single form (multi-tooth) thread mills. See attached pic. They do reduce the cutting pressure but only because you have half as many teeth engaged at any given time. These, too, are always used in-line with the thread axis.

I'm hoping the distortion in the thread form you describe is more theoretical than real as I've never heard about this in the past. I've also inspected many oddball threads that were generated with both styles of T-Mills and never noticed any concavity on an optical comparator.

Please enlighten me if I'm mistaken or misunderstanding you.