Looking at the Pros aim from above.

[sfleinen]

Gag that "Chatty Cathy" analytical/conscious mind in the chair, with duct tape

Either way, your using words, even if you do not say them in your mind, you think them.

The mind has to be controlled, it has to be trained and told what to do.

I personally line up a shot visually as you say, before I get down, but I am telling myself, talking to myself inside my mind as I do this, a quick checklist, that gets to be routine and hardly noticable after a while.

When I am shooting a shot, I always, think it through and visualize where the ball will go, and adjust accordingly.

But I also, am talking to myself inwardly at the same time, reminding myself, to stay down, follow through, and ABOVE ALL ELSE, believing that I will pocket the ball.

Any thought other than that, that you let get into the mix will cause you to more than likely do something wrong, and more than likely miss the pocket.

You cannot be thinking more than one thought at a time, and you are in control of what you think, or at least you better be!

So, you are down on the shot, and you say, I can make this shot, I am going to make this shot, this shot is mine, etc...

Positive thinking.........

If I believe I will miss the shot, I do not take it, I choose another, OR I change my mind, and aim, and get to the point that I honestly believe that I will make the shot.

I disagree. I think Chris (BasementDweller) has got it right -- you DON'T want to engage the conscious mind in any part of the execution of the shot. Boiling it down, there are essentially two parts of the mind involved with playing pool or any "execution-based" activity -- the conscious and subconscious. The conscious mind is the analytical part, that does the thinking, selection/choice-making, etc. The subconscious mind is the more primal part. It is the one that records your physical activities, your successes and failures, and is the "playback" storehouse of muscle-execution knowledge that you want to tap into as soon as you bend over into shooting position.

The conscious mind, at this stage, is like that noisy know-it-all backseat driver that just won't shut the f*ck up -- giving you "driving directions" every step of the way, when you're merely going around the block. It needs to slapped like a red-headed stepchild when it even enters the picture when you're executing the shot. There should be no thought when you're shooting the shot -- your only job is to open that conduit to the subconscious and let it happen -- like only your subconscious knows how.

While standing, overlooking the lay of the land of the table to pick out your pattern, next shot, and what to do with the cue ball? Sure -- let your "Chatty Cathy" conscious mind talk all it wants. But as soon as your "committee meeting" with Chatty Cathy is over, and you're ready to shoot the shot, it's time to gag the conscious mind in the chair with duct tape.

Some good reading for those that want to know how:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=216564

-Sean

 

[LAMas]

What is Lou thinking about when he's down on the shot...stroke...shoot.?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg9NYHs8RNg

 

[ENGLISH!]

"Pool lends itself to developing unconscious controls PRECISELY because it is artificial. You make the same movements over and over again; you face the same angles repeatedly.

Verrrrrrrrrry interesting. but I totally disagree & I will tell you a story to make my point. For the last 5 years I have been teaching a retired gentleman that had never played before. He has progressed extremely fast but can not beat me unless I totally screw up repeatedly, which hardly ever happens. Anyway back to the story. One day we plan to meet at the pool hall but he shows up with his neighbor who is another older gentleman that is somewhat mentally impaired. I don't know what he was thinking but back to the story. We played a few games of 8 ball alternating between losers with me winning every game. So... I buttted out and told my pupil for the 2 of them to play but that I would help his neighbor. I did this to make a point to him. With my instruction his mentally challenged neighbor beat him fairly easily. Both of them were totally shocked. His neighbor did exactly what I told him to do without question. He has not shot thousands of shots to build brain circuits & he had almost no knowledge of pool. I have the knowledge & that is the point I wanted to make to my pupil. It's not so much the physical skill, it's the knowledge to know what to do with it that's important & more valuable. I have been playing pool for 45 years & in my opinion, I doubt that any 2 shots have ever been exactly the same because each required the cue ball to be put in a different location. Simular, yes. The same, no. If you take positioning the cue ball out of the equation, then yes, very many have been the same, but they are not the same when you have to put the cue ball in a different spot. I know you'll disagree & I respect that but neither of us can really prove our point or belief. If what you say is true then any monkey can play very good pool by building circuits thru repetition. We probably are not even 'talking' about the same thing. I respect your opinion. I just don't totally agree with it. Sorry, maybe I'm the mindless monkey. No offense meant just a difference of opinion.

 

[LAMas]

ENGLISH!,
You are talking about (without paragraphs) a different aspect of what cfrandy posted. Those that have been shooting pool for 50 years, recognize and recall an exact shot and shape and execute it the same with the same reesults...perhaps within a degree or so on the cut angle of the OB and within an inch or so to the desired shape location on CB.

We can see the best pros miss a shot in the jaws of the pocket or his shape and just hook himself, but one knows that he had recalled the solution of that shot from his mental look up table. The missed shot or shape confounds the pro and sometimes he shows disgust for he knew that the attempted shot selected from that memory table was makeable.

Back in the day, the spot shot from the kitchen (before ball in hand) for each shooter was shot exactly the same every time. Today the break shot is shot the same every time if the first break gives the desired result - if not he adjusts.

Nice post though, but you don't give cfrandy enough credit for the wealth of what was meant in his terse post.

Welcome to this thread.:smile:

 

[duckie]

I was watching a show on the creating of a Japanese bow, which is not called a bow but a yumi. There is a difference between assembling something and creating something. The process included the spiritual aspect of doing something, of the work ones is doing will reflect the true self of that person.

Anyway, there was a segment that was about the ole the " the target doesn't matter" idea in archery. The practice was not to even look at the target but to know where it is in the minds eye and be aware of the proper motions to use to put the arrow on the target in the minds eye. Hence, the training of just pulling and release a bow, even without using a arrow.

To me, this implied its all in the stroke and whats in your mind, how well you can visual what you want to do. Visualization goes beyond what the eyes see. It is combining what the eyes provide with what you want to do based on past experiences.

There is this one table that is tough. Tough in that it has shimmed pockets and the shimming is terrible. Play on this table once, you even if you have been playing over 50 years, you will quickly learn, there is no such a thing as the same shot. Pockets play a role in shots.

Anyway, this is a table to is very sensitive to pocket speed and the OB entry angle and it is different for every pocket. This table will make you want to take up competitive basket weaving.

I've been playing this guy on this table lately. The guy lives on the table. He plays, practices on this table. Some of matches I've lost were do to the pockets spitting the ball back out. And until you play on this table, you have no idea how tough it is.

During one match, the pool gods must of been really bored. The guys was getting unreal rolls, and yes there are times this happens. Because of the pockets, shots that would go on a normal table didn't. I couldn't blame the pockets really, cause he was shooting at the same ones.

So, I just got pissed the pool gods were taking their boredom out on me. I went up the the table, had a long shot, step into my stance and just smacked the shit out of the CB to release some frustrated, wham center pocket. But I was so pissed, I kept that up. Step into stance, using smack the shit stroke, ball goes center pocket.

I did this for a few innings, just step into stance, fire away, ball goes center pocket. I thought about this afterwards. I realized I wasn't thinking about anything but hitting the CB as hard as I could. Not where to put the CB, nor where the CB will end up, but just smack the shit out of the CB.

Kinda like the "target doesn't matter idea, but its all in the doing" I saw in that show.

Now, I find that just being aware of my stroking, for some reason, the stroke now sends the CB to the spot to make the OB go where I want.

I find that when I start missing it is because I'm thinking more about aiming than just being aware of how to stroke for that shot.

So, I've been putting in practice time on this table, stopped concerning myself so much about aiming and just concerned myself with the stroke and I've slowly making friends with this table, meaning shots I was missing before are going in now. I've played on one the the other tight tables since then and the pockets seem huge.

The biggest reason that there is no such a thing as the same shot in pool is that this is usually what you think right before you miss that same shot you've done over and over.

The overall point is don't think, do. I've mentioned before that when I play well, there is a type of script running in my head. Goes kinda like this, One ball in corner, CB there for next shot. Not a thing about where the CB needs to be in order to accomplish this, not a thought about how much stroke to use, just see what I want to do and let it happen. Kinda like the smack the shit experience I had.

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to get out of ones on way in order to reach ones true potential.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I was at the Riviera to see the Pros last week. The seating was so bad that I bought the VIP ticket and went to the skybox seats. This allowed me to look directly at the tables below me from above. I noticed that most set up their shots with english and at the same time compensating for the shaft deflection.

For slight thick cuts (almost straight in), it looks like the are using a little english, but it appears that they are using the shaft deflection to effect the shot, and at other times, they are using english to effect CIT.

Their aiming seems unconscious (they see the line to the pocket) and with more attention to the application of english and compensating for shaft deflection.:thumbup:

Y'all did speak much (and intelligently) about conscious/unconscious aiming, but does anyone wish to comment on this part:

"For slight thick cuts (almost straight in), it looks like the are using a little english, but it appears that they are using the shaft deflection to effect the shot, and at other times, they are using english to effect CIT."

I'd love to chat about this, is there a similar thread anywhere?

 

[cfrandy]

"Pool lends itself to developing unconscious controls PRECISELY because it is artificial. You make the same movements over and over again; you face the same angles repeatedly.

Verrrrrrrrrry interesting. but I totally disagree & I will tell you a story to make my point. For the last 5 years I have been teaching a retired gentleman that had never played before. He has progressed extremely fast but can not beat me unless I totally screw up repeatedly, which hardly ever happens. Anyway back to the story. One day we plan to meet at the pool hall but he shows up with his neighbor who is another older gentleman that is somewhat mentally impaired. I don't know what he was thinking but back to the story. We played a few games of 8 ball alternating between losers with me winning every game. So... I buttted out and told my pupil for the 2 of them to play but that I would help his neighbor. I did this to make a point to him. With my instruction his mentally challenged neighbor beat him fairly easily. Both of them were totally shocked. His neighbor did exactly what I told him to do without question. He has not shot thousands of shots to build brain circuits & he had almost no knowledge of pool. I have the knowledge & that is the point I wanted to make to my pupil. It's not so much the physical skill, it's the knowledge to know what to do with it that's important & more valuable. I have been playing pool for 45 years & in my opinion, I doubt that any 2 shots have ever been exactly the same because each required the cue ball to be put in a different location. Simular, yes. The same, no. If you take positioning the cue ball out of the equation, then yes, very many have been the same, but they are not the same when you have to put the cue ball in a different spot. I know you'll disagree & I respect that but neither of us can really prove our point or belief. If what you say is true then any monkey can play very good pool by building circuits thru repetition. We probably are not even 'talking' about the same thing. I respect your opinion. I just don't totally agree with it. Sorry, maybe I'm the mindless monkey. No offense meant just a difference of opinion.

I've been playing the game for 57 years and I can guarantee I see the same shots over and over again! It doesn't matter if the cue ball or object ball is in the exact position over and over...it only matters that the angle to the pocket is the same! Besides the "movements" we make over and over again, should be in the stroke, stance, and alignment. These are the things we learn by hours and hours of practice. To achieve pro status, these are also the parts of shot execution that must be under unconcious control. If you could teach a monkey the fundamentals of pool, YES he could learn to play very good pool! However, most pool players are like monkeys...they never learn the fundamentals! Ask yourself, how many times have you played (and beat) someone with "a good eye" and a lousy stroke?

 

[LAMas]

Y'all did speak much (and intelligently) about conscious/unconscious aiming, but does anyone wish to comment on this part:

"For slight thick cuts (almost straight in), it looks like the are using a little english, but it appears that they are using the shaft deflection to effect the shot, and at other times, they are using english to effect CIT."

I'd love to chat about this, is there a similar thread anywhere?

Say that you have a straight in shot, but you want the CB to not follow the OB into the pocket. Instead, you want the CB to hit the right rail and have the CB travel down table to the right.

You then need to use some right english or right top english with a firm hit/stroke. You may get a bit of squirt, causing the CB to vier to the left of the center of the OB at impact sending it to the right tit or rail...so does one need to aim a bit to the right of the center of the CB to compensate for the squirt?

 

[sfleinen]

What is Lou thinking about when he's down on the shot...stroke...shoot.?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg9NYHs8RNg

Sorry I'm seeing this only now, LAMas.

Anyway, I remember an interview with Lou way back when, and he was questioned about what he's thinking about when he shoots fast. Lou answered that he only thinks about patterns, and envisioning where he wants the cue ball to go. He doesn't think about the shot -- making the object ball -- *at all*. He just gets into his stance, envisions where the cue ball will go, and fires. All of the "aiming" that is so laboriously "thought about" here on this subforum is automatic with Lou. That's why when you watch Lou play, it looks so effortless -- in fact, there are plenty of times when Lou has already started to look away from the shot, towards where he wants the cue ball to go, while he's delivering the cue -- the shot is a "foregone conclusion."

And that's where we need to be, if we want to play really fulfilling pool. All that conscious effort we're wasting on "aiming" could be put to much better (and enjoyable) use, if we consider the shot to almost be a foregone conclusion, and instead focus on patterns.

You know me, LAMas -- I'm a big proponent of using the subconscious to do what it was "designed" (or evolved) to do -- replay that which is repeatable. That's why I consider the memorization of certain cut angles (i.e. easily-recognizable ball-to-ball relationships, e.g. 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 7/8) key to giving the subconscious the "reference fodder" it needs to help one automatically make the adjustments to make the shot without any conscious effort.

-Sean

 

[LAMas]

Sean,
I appreciate the cogent descriptive advise on aiming.
I can't learn too much what Lou does for it is in his mind.

What you proffer on the otherhand is a great way to learn by doing.

"That's why I consider the memorization of certain cut angles (i.e. easily-recognizable ball-to-ball relationships, e.g. 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 7/8) key to giving the subconscious the "reference fodder" it needs to help one automatically make the adjustments to make the shot without any conscious effort."

It is obvious that the next step is to use those same fractions and memorize what the effects on the cut angle are when speed and english, slight to extreme, is applied as well as the path of the CB after impact.

Thanks.

Did you answer my question?:smile: