Looking for a better way to 1-rail kick

Patrick Johnson said:
Kicking isn't just physics; it's geometry modified by physics. Geometry is the "skeleton" and physics is the "muscles and skin", if you will. Just as artists find it useful to learn anatomy so they can draw lifelike figures, pool players can find it useful to learn the geometry of kicking so they can understand (and learn more quickly and retain better) all of the factors that make up a successful kick.

Geometry can be a useful skeleton on which to build your intuitive kicking "anatomy", and a useful "advanced starting place" for rebuilding it after some time away.



First, this is untrue - 3-cushion players use systems and points of reference more than other players. But I think it's worth noting that "play like the very best 3-cushion players" is advice that very few other players can follow.

pj
chgo
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I completely agree with Patrick. I think I am a very good kicker and as you can see from the diagram I posted I tend to be very analytical. When it comes to actually implementing any of the systems described I only use them as a starting point and then make adjustments based on how the table I am playing on is reacting on that particular day and if I need to bend the path to avoid another ball in the chosen path.

I think the analogy about geometry as skeleton and physics as the muscle and skin is very apt as the geometry of a shot does not waver while physics is usually the dynamics of the table conditions that is constantly affecting how the underlying system functions.
 
av84fun said:
I'm not trying to be argumentative Jude. It is just that the word you are choosing to define what you mean is the wrong word.

I would love to see the test you refer to above but to the extent that it succeeds, it is based on prior learning experiences not intuition.

But again...I know what you mean. I am just making the point that words such as "intuition" and "instinct" don't describe what is actually happening.

What is happening is success based on prior (often laborious) experience which is the opposite of instinct or tuition.

Regards,

Jim
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Jim, your definition of intuition is off... here is Oxford Dictionary's definition:


intuition |ˌint(y)oōˈi sh ən|
noun
the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning : we shall allow our intuition to guide us.
? a thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning : your insights and intuitions as a native speaker are positively sought.

What is implicit in the meaning of "intuition" is understanding something without conscious thought.. i.e. the word "immediately" in the definition above. If you were kicking using intuition you would look at the shot and fire away without making adjustments which necessarily requires thinking. Everything would be sub-conscious so to speak.

What I do when kicking (BTW I haven't put in the effort thus far to learn systems so this is not a suggestion on how to kick.. seriously! I miss a lot!, just an example) is look at the shot, use my intuition to find a point on the rail I'm shooting at, this happens immediately without thinking just "seeing", and then make adjustments based on the table conditions, if and how I missed my last kick shot, how I feel about what my intuition told me, whether the Ravens will draft a qb this weekend, will I lose the match if I miss this painful 1 rail kick, etc. What i do find in my experience is that my intuition for kick shots gets better and better the more I play on that table.

Anyway, I believe your intuition is guided by your past experiences.. For example, if I only played on one table my whole pool playing career and it played exactly the same everytime then moved to another table where the rails played shorter my intuition would have me kicking long consistently on the second table. Clearly, in this example at least, my intuition has been affected by my past experience.

Maybe I'm wrong (I performed horribly in English class and my vocabulary is sub-par..) but my intuition tells me I might be right? lol.. back to work:confused:

Interesting thread.. I need to look into these banking/kicking systems thingamagigs.. Blackjack may I email you about this document?

EDIT: oh man I'm tired.. Jim just read your post 2 or 3 ahead of mine.. duh.
 
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bagofpaper said:
Jim, your definition of intuition is off... here is Oxford Dictionary's definition:


intuition |ˌint(y)oōˈi sh ən|
noun
the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning : we shall allow our intuition to guide us.
? a thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning : your insights and intuitions as a native speaker are positively sought.

What is implicit in the meaning of "intuition" is understanding something without conscious thought.. i.e. the word "immediately" in the definition above. If you were kicking using intuition you would look at the shot and fire away without making adjustments which necessarily requires thinking. Everything would be sub-conscious so to speak.

What I do when kicking (BTW I haven't put in the effort thus far to learn systems so this is not a suggestion on how to kick.. seriously! I miss a lot!, just an example) is look at the shot, use my intuition to find a point on the rail I'm shooting at, this happens immediately without thinking just "seeing", and then make adjustments based on the table conditions, if and how I missed my last kick shot, how I feel about what my intuition told me, whether the Ravens will draft a qb this weekend, will I lose the match if I miss this painful 1 rail kick, etc. What i do find in my experience is that my intuition for kick shots gets better and better the more I play on that table.

Anyway, I believe your intuition is guided by your past experiences.. For example, if I only played on one table my whole pool playing career and it played exactly the same everytime then moved to another table where the rails played shorter my intuition would have me kicking long consistently on the second table. Clearly, in this example at least, my intuition has been affected by my past experience.

Maybe I'm wrong (I performed horribly in English class and my vocabulary is sub-par..) but my intuition tells me I might be right? lol.. back to work:confused:

Interesting thread.. I need to look into these banking/kicking systems thingamagigs.. Blackjack may I email you about this document?

EDIT: oh man I'm tired.. Jim just read your post 2 or 3 ahead of mine.. duh.
Click to expand...


On the contrary and in defense of Jim, how one perceives a word is extremely personal. What Jim is saying is NOT incorrect. However, I don't think my interpretation is, either. So long as our thoughts are consistent, that's all that matters. Jim knows what I'm talking about and that's what's most important.
 
junksecret said:
Jen,

A very simple method is the "spot on the wall" which was taught to me very early in my 3 cushion days. Basically you find a fixed "known" spot. For example if you are kicking to a corner you know corner, side pocket, gets you the other corner....assuming correct speed and english. As such you can draw a line from the corner pocket to the side pocket and then extend that line to a point in the distance, a chair leg, the edge of a picture, etc. When you move off that exact line, the "extended point" via convergence will move with you, so aiming at that spot on the wall will still get you the corner. If you move up 1 diamond on the long rail, then extend through 1/2 diamond beyond the side pocket to find your point on the wall. If you are are 2 diamonds up the rail, then 1/2 the 6 remaining diamonds will have you sighting through the 3rd diamond. It is based on the "mirror image" concept but is easy and deadly. I'll try and use the cuetable to demonstrate an example....

CueTable Help



I used both cueball "a" and "b" as well as object balls 2, 3 and 4 to show the "equal angle" lines for a full hit on the 1 ball. I am lousy at using the "cuetable so some of my lines are too deep on the rail, resulting in small errors in the lines but I hope you see the point. All 5 lines are easily found by imagining a point (I used the 5 balls) the same distance from the long rail (1 diamond) and dividing the distance. As you can see (sorta since my skills with the cuetable layout are weak) all 5 lines should be converging to a similar spot in the distance. Assuming your cueball is the red dot cue ball, the closest line to your line would be either cueball "b" or the 3 ball line. If you extend either of those imaginary lines to a spot in the distance, note it, and the go to the red dot cueball and aim it at that imaginary point in the distance you should get a full hit...imagine those lines one ball width closer to the intended rail when you draw them and you should pocket the ball.

I hope this makes some sense, obviously the stroke and speed for any "equal angle" system will take a little practice but I find this a very simple and effective system.

Actually, one of the links "cuetable" posted above has a link to an article by our own Bob Jewett that discusses the mirror image system and you can see in his drawings the "spot on the wall system" concept I propose, which is to say that a distant aim point is fixed and different points converge on that single spot in the distance. Bob certainly explains it better than I did. It is a PDF located here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1996-10.pdf



Lots of "old timers" use this....I guess now I'm an old timer too.

Joe
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I was wondering if there is an optimal distance for finding the aim point. The lines in the diagram do converge at some distant point but will eventually cross. If the imaginary aim point is before or beyond this point of convergence, accuracy will suffer. Correct?
 
The simplest method for one rail kicks is doubling the distance between the object ball and the cushion you are kicking into. You have to be able to visualize a point off the table, but it is pretty much dead accurate. Once you get the hang of it, you can add speed and english to the cue ball to hit a certain side of the obeject ball or to squat the cueball for a safety. Hope this helps.

Southpaw
 
And here I always thunk Jude was smart, now I know he learnt him some smarts!

Billiards players kicking w/ intent, you say? Check this out:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LsWwif_8fPg

Of particular note, IMO is:
48sec
1.25
2.34 though ~I sort~ of think he might have lucked this one.
3.07 the reason I dug this clip up.
 
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