Looking To Trade A Midsize For Deluxe
- Thread starter renegadej
- Start date
dave sutton
Banned
ive built about 25 full cues on my midsize. you dont need a deluxe for that. only thing you cant do is cut your own shaft. there are many companies that sell finished taper shafts for around 20$ each.
If your going to dive very far off in building cues. You either need a Deluxe, Unique or a Full size metal lathe. It will save you time and you can perform a lot more task much easier especially with a larger sindle bore. With that said you can indeed build cues on the Midsize and do quality work.
dave sutton
Banned
he doesnt even need to sell the mid size. he could spend a few hundred and upgrade to the the bigger set up. the midsize is long enough. just
i had thought of that,,changing headstock on my midsize.to the deluxe.
anybody done it ? cost ?
carl
anybody done it ? cost ?
carl
nympfisher said:
It's expensive. I talked to Chris about just this & by the time you put everything on needed to create a near equivelant to the deluxe, it'll be costing a little over $2G. Might as well just buy the deluxe & keep your mid-size for other tasks. Trust me when I say money comes & money goes. Selling your midsize will get you a little cash, but not enough to buy the deluxe. And once you get going with cuemaking you'll wish you had kept that other lathe because it can do certain tasks while you are doing other tasks on another lathe. Having multiple machines set up for various tasks beats having one machine you have to constantly reconfigure to accomplish every task.
dave sutton
Banned
qbilder said:
Multiple lathes are a deff but it can be done for way less than 2000$. I have little to no use for the taper bars. I just offset my tailstock. Taper my pointed cues in two parts and my pj cues together. The new headstock upgrade is 500$.
Cutting my own shafts isn't really in my mind now. 4$ for the dowel 6 cuts over 6 months and then hope they're right. I'll just buy final tapered shafts for 20$ each
dave sutton said:
Why wouldn't you cut your pointed cues as assembled units the same as any other cue? And why would you not want to create your own personal taper & begin cutting your own shafts?
It can't be done right for less than $2G. Talk to Chris & ask him what it takes to upgrade a midsize to being competitive with the deluxe.
dave sutton
Banned
Its a trick I learned from a cuemaker with almost 40 years experience. Points come out perfect the way I do it.
Also as a NEW maker there is not much value in cutting your own shafts. The process is long and hard. Maybe in a few years but right now. Learn to make a cue first then take steps to advance yourself.
As far as making the mid size competitive tyt prob the wrong word. It would he very very competitive with the larger headstock. I would love to hear why it wouldnt be
Also as a NEW maker there is not much value in cutting your own shafts. The process is long and hard. Maybe in a few years but right now. Learn to make a cue first then take steps to advance yourself.
As far as making the mid size competitive tyt prob the wrong word. It would he very very competitive with the larger headstock. I would love to hear why it wouldnt be
dave sutton said:
"It was a rehtorical question, Farley." I know why you cut pointed cues in separate peices to keep the points even. It's no trick. The real trick is when you can build a cue so accurately that you can cut an assembled butt & the points stay dead nuts even. It can be done on a deluxe, I do it every day. It can't be done on a midsize unless the collets are ID tapered to hug the components like a glove, but you can't make those collets, or at least make them effective unless you have a taper bar with repeatability.
The headstock upgrade of $500 gets you a bigger spindle bore, that's all. So now you have a larger spindle bore, what are you going to do with it? You'll still be relying on your steady rest with the straight bore collets. The deluxe has two chucks located on each end of the spindle, allowing you to accurately work with & squarely face off components before assembly. It eliminates the need for the steady rest to the point where the rest is only needed for balancing/cribbing long peices. This is an $850 option, that also requires riser blocks for the tail stock & rest, plus an additional top slide for the carriage. So $1500 roughly & still you rely on offsetting the tailstock to taper.
With a deluxe you don't need to offset the tailstock. You can adjust it & shim it to dead nuts centerline with the headstock, and leave it. This makes joint work MUCH more accurate, and allows you to do assembly work on center so you don't need to cut pointed cues in sections. You have infinitely adjustable taper bars with auto feed, so you get repeatable work with even, clean cuts. Basically, there's nothing that can't be done with the deluxe except inlaying, which is another option. And yes, it can even be equipped with a threading attachment for cutting threaded tenons or making joint pins. Mine is.
I'm not on here advertising for Chris. My point is that it's not the greatest idea to direct other newbies into disney land. There's no legitimate arguement of comparing a midsize to a deluxe. I own both machines & know them very well, and have spoken with Chris about the conversions needed to bring the midsize up to a level competitive with the deluxe. For a repair guy, the midsize is fine. For an aspiring cuemaker, the deluxe would be a far wiser choice. You can claim the midsize will do as well or compete with the deluxe, but how do you really know? Do you own both? I own a metal lathe, a porper B, a midsize, a deluxe, a tablesaw taper machine, a wood lathe & a finishing lathe I built with components from ebay. I know which equipment can do what because i'm using it daily. I don't have 40 years experience but with the experience I do have I know enough to get the right equipment & do things right if i'm planning to progress. If somebody wants to learn cuemaking & do it right, there's no getting around a full capacity lathe, whether it be a metal lathe with taper attachments or a full size cuemaking lathe. Telling somebody to do it another way is simply misleading.
If you offset the tailstock to taper, I think it would be near impossible to get the same taper every time. You only have to be off by a couple of thousandths and your dimensions are different.
I had the same issues with cutting points by offsetting the tailstock. After I built my first cue I decided the setup time for the points was a major headache. I had no idea what I needed, but Chris suggested a milling machine. I couldn't imagine cutting points any other way. I have 0 setup time, unless I want to do 6 or 8 points and then my setup time is around 30 seconds.
Also, when you offset the tailstock, your piece isn't sitting perfectly in your center anymore.
I had the same issues with cutting points by offsetting the tailstock. After I built my first cue I decided the setup time for the points was a major headache. I had no idea what I needed, but Chris suggested a milling machine. I couldn't imagine cutting points any other way. I have 0 setup time, unless I want to do 6 or 8 points and then my setup time is around 30 seconds.
Also, when you offset the tailstock, your piece isn't sitting perfectly in your center anymore.
dave sutton
Banned
Well your right. I don't own both. However a very close friend does. The only true advantage is the bigger head and double chuck. Instead of talking shoe me some proof. How can you say one machine is so much more accurate then the other built by the same man. All I'm trying to do is save him money. I have yet to have a construction problem crooked pin Ajoint or insert using my method. Just bc I don't do my points one piece doesn't mean I can't or haven't. I like my results better this way.
Don't take anything I say wrong bc I have a great respect for you. Not everyone has the money to drop on a deluxe. As a matter of fact I think I can built an entire cue on the micro II. I know chris says its not for that but I think I can using my methods now
Don't take anything I say wrong bc I have a great respect for you. Not everyone has the money to drop on a deluxe. As a matter of fact I think I can built an entire cue on the micro II. I know chris says its not for that but I think I can using my methods now
dave sutton
Banned
Tony Zinzola said:
This is not true at all. I take my 12 inch forearm that is 1.050 then cut top to .900. I put it between centers and take my cutting tool and put it right at the end 1.050. Without moving anything I loosen tailstock and slide carrige to end of .900. Slide .900 twards cutting tool and lock down tailstock. Then cut with router
perfect every time. As accurate as my caliper which it pretty accurate
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dave sutton said:
I'm not trying to argue, or negate your advice. I'm pointing out the major differences in the machines in question, and giving my opinion that if somebody wants to dive into cuemaking then they should begin with a capable lathe.
If you are doing things a certain way & it's working for you, then great for you. But it doesn't mean that it'll work the same way for anybody else. I admit I could build a functional cue on just about any lathe, but it's not going to be anything near the quality & accuracy I can get with a fully functional lathe set up for cue work. I'm not saying you are wrong for doing things the way you do. You do what you feel is right for you. But put things in perspective. You have only built a few cues & did it with equipment that forced you to improvise, instead of using equipment designed & equipped to do the tasks efficiently & accurately. Again, it might work for you. But what are your standards? What is your margin of accuracy? You say you can do this & do that & it works great for you, but what if your great is not good enough for somebody else? I'm not implying anything of your standards & do not expect you to answer these questions. I'm simply making the point that your idea of "just fine" may not be another's idea of "just fine".
By getting a capable lathe to begin with, there will be the opportunity of world class accuracy & true repeatability that is not a given with lesser machines. If one is going to learn cuemaking on a competent level, then a fully functional cuemaking machine is a must. If it's too expensive then maybe it's not the right hobby to learn, or the right time to learn it. Besides saving a few bucks, what advantage would one have by using lesser equipment & having to improvise techniques? There's lots of advantages to having the big lathe, even if it may cost a bit more. The accuracy alone is worth the difference in cost, not to mention all the other things that can be done more efficiently & effectively.
So back to square one, I feel it would be far smarter to spend the extra cash & get the right machine. And again, if it's not affordable then maybe it's not a smart move in the first place. Being an accomplished builder, I can look back at the time when I was at that early learning stage & see what decisions I made & evaluate the results. Beginning with a capable lathe was a good choice for me. The only advice I could offer with confidence to anybody beginning this skill is to get the right equipment first & don't quit when things get tough.
As far as ill feelings between you & me, not a chance. It's just a disagreement that makes for nice, informative conversation.
dave sutton
Banned
qbilder said:
i understand what your saying and agree 100%. if i had known i would have spend the extra cash for the deluxe. however he ALREADY has the midsize. thats the point im making and you are missing.
the point you make about standards & tolerances is a good one. like you said you do not know what they are. when my a joint goes together i spin it still wet between center and have make up a tool for my toolpost that allows me to check for runout. chris sells a gage for this. let me tell you i havent had trouble yet. over tightening is the problem. i dont make many cues bc its a hobby and most have sold before completion. only about 4 have came to azb but my first secong and third cues are better then alot of ppl that have been building cues for years.
First... Excellent info in this thread!
Second... I agree with both! I had the Mid Size first and built a handful of cues with minimal tooling added and I have the smaller headstock. It's possible, but very, very time consuming. Then I bought the Deluxe...much, much easier, quicker and less chance for less accuracy. You CAN use the Mid Size to build cues, but it's very time consuming with setting up for each procedure and you'll have to spend between $500-$1000 depending on what you already have. That's 1/4-1/2 of what a Deluxe costs new.
My recommendations... keep the mid size, you'll want it later! Start repairing cues at tournaments or for your local rooms and players. The income from repairs are for 2 things; 1) repair inventory (sandpaper, glue, tips, ferrules, etc) 2) save for a Deluxe ($1700-$1900). You can even find some great deals here on AzB for a used Deluxe. By the time you've saved enough for the Deluxe, you'll have done plenty of repairs and built a good reputation for your work and customer service. This will make it a little easier to sell your cues when you start building them. Start stock piling wood (blanks and shafts) now and then to get ahead. When you get your Deluxe, you'll have everything ready to go.
Again, great thread! Good points by everyone!
Zim
Second... I agree with both! I had the Mid Size first and built a handful of cues with minimal tooling added and I have the smaller headstock. It's possible, but very, very time consuming. Then I bought the Deluxe...much, much easier, quicker and less chance for less accuracy. You CAN use the Mid Size to build cues, but it's very time consuming with setting up for each procedure and you'll have to spend between $500-$1000 depending on what you already have. That's 1/4-1/2 of what a Deluxe costs new.
My recommendations... keep the mid size, you'll want it later! Start repairing cues at tournaments or for your local rooms and players. The income from repairs are for 2 things; 1) repair inventory (sandpaper, glue, tips, ferrules, etc) 2) save for a Deluxe ($1700-$1900). You can even find some great deals here on AzB for a used Deluxe. By the time you've saved enough for the Deluxe, you'll have done plenty of repairs and built a good reputation for your work and customer service. This will make it a little easier to sell your cues when you start building them. Start stock piling wood (blanks and shafts) now and then to get ahead. When you get your Deluxe, you'll have everything ready to go.
Again, great thread! Good points by everyone!
Zim
You need to keep the lathe if you really want to make cues.You might look into unique lathe/taper shaper,it will cut shafts,points. I have a Porper repair lathe, Porper B-model and taper shaper and could use another lathe. Comes in handy if doing several tasks at once. My first lathe was a Hightower cue smith. You can never have too many lathes.