Low Deflection Aiming Question

Aaron_S

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am a feel player by nature, ghost ball being the only aiming system I have ever used, and that only sporadically. I do not use any sort of pivoting systems or anything like that, and my method of applying english is I think what people would classify as front-hand english. I had always used standard maple shafts, typically in the 12.5-13mm range, and I just received shipment of a predator cue with a 314-2 shaft after deciding to give LD a shot.

It will come as no surprise that I am having to adjust my aiming on cut shots with spin, but my question for those who have studied this technology is how much of what I'm adjusting for is reduced deflection and how much is simply due to increased spin. I am certainly getting more english (follow and draw as well as side spin) than I did with my previous cue, which may very well be a product of the LD technology, but it seems that much of what I am now compensating for is an increase in spin-induced throw rather than a reduction in deflection.

Here is a diagram of one particular shot that I studied intensely in my first practice session with the LD shaft:

CueTable Help



The red dot cueball illustrates a shot with outside english and cueball A illustrates one with inside english. With my previous two playing cues (Judd with 13mm standard shaft & sniper tip, and scruggs with 12.5 mm shaft and moori medium tip), I was able to aim very close to the ghost ball (maybe within 1/4" variance) for both of these shots. It seems that my method of applying spin was producing a situation where the deflection and the spin-induced throw were, for the most part, canceling each other out on many shots.

With the 314-2 shaft, however, I have to aim a few inches to either side of the pocket (roughly at the 3 and 8 balls) depending on what spin I am using. The last time I had to make such an adjustment was when someone handed me a cue with a standard maple shaft in a small diameter (12mm or so) and a soft tip, and I just chalked that up to increased spin-induced throw. I am wondering if that is also the main reason for the adjustment I'm having to make with the predator on this shot, since the 12mm shaft I borrowed certainly would have been considered a high deflection shaft, but required the exact same adjustment as the 314-2 shaft.

Just so there's no confusion, I do know that I am experiencing less deflection with the predator shaft, because I have found other shots (especially low-speed extreme-spin shots) on which I used to compensate for deflection and now do not have to. It just seems that on the shot I diagrammed, hit at speed to go around the table, the major adjustment I am making is mostly for spin-induced throw. Does this explanation seem plausible to those of you have had to make the HD to LD adjustment?

Thanks,
Aaron

Edit: said CIT instead of spin-induced throw.
 
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Aaron_S said:
I am a feel player by nature, ghost ball being the only aiming system I have ever used, and that only sporadically. I do not use any sort of pivoting systems or anything like that, and my method of applying english is I think what people would classify as front-hand english. I had always used standard maple shafts, typically in the 12.5-13mm range, and I just received shipment of a predator cue with a 314-2 shaft after deciding to give LD a shot.

It will come as no surprise that I am having to adjust my aiming on cut shots with spin, but my question for those who have studied this technology is how much of what I'm adjusting for is reduced deflection and how much is simply due to increased spin. I am certainly getting more english (follow and draw as well as side spin) than I did with my previous cue, which may very well be a product of the LD technology, but it seems that much of what I am now compensating for is an increase in spin-induced throw rather than a reduction in deflection.

Here is a diagram of one particular shot that I studied intensely in my first practice session with the LD shaft:

CueTable Help



The red dot cueball illustrates a shot with outside english and cueball A illustrates one with inside english. With my previous two playing cues (Judd with 13mm standard shaft & sniper tip, and scruggs with 12.5 mm shaft and moori medium tip), I was able to aim very close to the ghost ball (maybe within 1/4" variance) for both of these shots. It seems that my method of applying spin was producing a situation where the deflection and the spin-induced throw were, for the most part, canceling each other out on many shots.

With the 314-2 shaft, however, I have to aim a few inches to either side of the pocket (roughly at the 3 and 8 balls) depending on what spin I am using. The last time I had to make such an adjustment was when someone handed me a cue with a standard maple shaft in a small diameter (12mm or so) and a soft tip, and I just chalked that up to increased spin-induced throw. I am wondering if that is also the main reason for the adjustment I'm having to make with the predator on this shot, since the 12mm shaft I borrowed certainly would have been considered a high deflection shaft, but required the exact same adjustment as the 314-2 shaft.

Just so there's no confusion, I do know that I am experiencing less deflection with the predator shaft, because I have found other shots (especially low-speed extreme-spin shots) on which I used to compensate for deflection and now do not have to. It just seems that on the shot I diagrammed, hit at speed to go around the table, the major adjustment I am making is mostly for spin-induced throw. Does this explanation seem plausible to those of you have had to make the HD to LD adjustment?

Thanks,
Aaron

Edit: said CIT instead of spin-induced throw.
Click to expand...

My brain hurts. I do know that when you cut a ball that much the ob will not be thrown much. That isn't a big consideration on this shot for me. The difference in aiming is really astounding with these shafts when using inside english. There could be a whole book written on this one subject, but the short version is inside english is just harder to use; there is a lot less margin for error there. I have to aim SO much thicker now with inside with an LD shaft. I really think what is throwing you off is lack of deflection. With outside extra spin (or less spin) will counteract a poor stroke because it almost corrects itself... inside isnt like this. Just aim thicker, u have to get a feel for it in the memory banks. I used to watch mark tadd shoot a single shot he missed once for an hour. This is what you need, in 2 days you will have non more problem. I hope i underdstoof your question right, i am tired tonight :)
 
The Chinchilla said:
My brain hurts. I do know that when you cut a ball that much the ob will not be thrown much. That isn't a big consideration on this shot for me. The difference in aiming is really astounding with these shafts when using inside english. There could be a whole book written on this one subject, but the short version is inside english is just harder to use; there is a lot less margin for error there. I have to aim SO much thicker now with inside with an LD shaft. I really think what is throwing you off is lack of deflection. With outside extra spin (or less spin) will counteract a poor stroke because it almost corrects itself... inside isnt like this. Just aim thicker, u have to get a feel for it in the memory banks. I used to watch mark tadd shoot a single shot he missed once for an hour. This is what you need, in 2 days you will have non more problem. I hope i underdstoof your question right, i am tired tonight :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I typically don't have a problem with inside english, and after about a half hour with the LD shaft I was making these shots again, but I just haven't yet been able to put my finger on what exactly I'm adjusting for. It seems like throw predominantly, but it's hard to pinpoint.

Thanks again,
Aaron
 
I use a low deflection shaft. It seems to me like I get more english/throw with an LD shaft. Some say they get more with a regular shaft. Also with an LD shaft you will have more forgiveness with firm shots and less with soft shots compared to a regular shaft.

With an LD shaft the pivot point is further away from the cue ball, let's say about 18". The pivot point is about 8" on a regular shaft. So backhand english works better with a regular shaft. With an LD shaft you need to pivot around the longer pivot point. So it is more of a combination parallel/back hand pivot.

Of course you'll need to get a feel for the squirt/swerve. This varies with the tip shape and also the slide of the cloth can affect the swerve.

With one tip inside english I can aim pretty much aim at the contact point on cuts shots and make the ball. This is my go to shot. Most shots I aim with one tip inside or outside english. From there if you want to use more english you can just pivot around the 18" mark. I do this subconsciously without thinking about it.
 
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Don't forget low deflection isn't the same as no deflection. However, you're treading on paralysis from analysis. I'd just keep using the shaft until your brain figures out where the new pocket is located.

FYI, I almost always feel like I'm aiming straight at the pocket. However, I know this is hardly ever the case.
 
Mitchxout said:
However, you're treading on paralysis from analysis. I'd just keep using the shaft until your brain figures out where the new pocket is located.
Click to expand...

I think you may be right, lol. That's my plan at this point.

Thanks for the replies everyone,
Aaron
 
Well first off you are not getting more spin with an LD. If you use the same offset with HD the spin amount is the same. By that I mean you strike the C/B at the same point.

It gets way to wordy to describe all the variables but in general your adjustment should be for less squirt. Throw is not a problem at the speed needed for your diagram. Throw is a factor at slower speeds.

LD shafts squirt less so when using top or low with side spin swerve is the major factor, especially at med to slower speeds. Distance is another concern along with how much English is used. Slower high spin shots with top or low swerve at lot more. At longer distances it is a large amount. As speed increases there is less swerve.

I think the thought process for some gets out of whack. In general all shafts react the same. They all spin the ball the same amount at the same contact point. They all deflect (read squirt) and they all swerve. They do it at different rates.

I think you need to set up more routine shot/s and practice them at different distances. Then vary your speed, amount of English and use top and low.

In general I find that med distance along with med speed there is little compensation if any. But slow and high speed require adjustment at the same distance. My main concern is swerve and I try to hold that down by using less tip offset.

It takes time and patience but I think you'll learn more quicker buy shooting more routine shots. You can advance as you like but its the routine shots that win games. The lower percentage shots loose games.

Rod
 
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Rod said:
Well first off you are not getting more spin with an LD. If you use the same offset with HD the spin amount is the same. By that I mean you strike the C/B at the same point.

It gets way to wordy to describe all the variables but in general your adjustment should be for less squirt. Throw is not a problem at the speed needed for your diagram. Throw is a factor at slower speeds.

LD shafts squirt less so when using top or low with side spin swerve is the major factor, especially at med to slower speeds. Distance is another concern along with how much English is used. Slower high spin shots with top or low swerve at lot more. At longer distances it is a large amount. As speed increases there is less swerve.

I think the thought process for some gets out of whack. In general all shafts react the same. They all spin the ball the same amount at the same contact point. They all deflect (read squirt) and they all swerve. They do it at different rates.

I think you need to set up more routine shot/s and practice them at different distances. Then vary your speed, amount of English and use top and low.

In general I find that med distance along with med speed there is little compensation if any. But slow and high speed require adjustment at the same distance. My main concern is swerve and I try to hold that down by using less tip offset.

It takes time and patience but I think you'll learn more quicker buy shooting more routine shots. You can advance as you like but its the routine shots that win games. The lower percentage shots loose games.

Rod
Click to expand...

At first I thought it was a swerve thing, but my tangent lines are all out of whack for that explanation. I am delivering the cueball (mostly) right where I'm aiming to deliver it, but when it gets there something else is happening. Like the shot I diagrammed with outside english, I am aiming for the 1-ball to hit where the 3-ball is, and the tangent line I get is appropriate for that line (ie: much flatter than a hit at the ghost ball contact point would produce), but the OB goes in the hole. It's just a lot different from the adjustment I thought I would be making for a switch to LD, but I also realize that perception can be skewed, especially for a feel player like myself, and it's very possible that's the case here.

My first two hours with the cue were productive, however, and I think I'm going to like it once I get fully adjusted. I went from completely lost to beating the 9-ball ghost last night, and I feel that I will beating the 10-ball ghost again by the end of the week. But I'm not sure I will ever fully understand the adjustments I'm having to make. I will probably just say "Whatever. It's working." at some point like I usually do, LOL.

Thanks!
Aaron
 
Rod said:
Well first off you are not getting more spin with an LD. If you use the same offset with HD the spin amount is the same. By that I mean you strike the C/B at the same point.
Click to expand...
Agreed; although, some people might be hitting the CB is a different spot if the tip diameter and shape are different from their previous cue. For more info on this whole topic, see the articles linked here:

Rod said:
LD shafts squirt less so when using top or low with side spin swerve is the major factor, especially at med to slower speeds. Distance is another concern along with how much English is used. Slower high spin shots with top or low swerve at lot more. At longer distances it is a large amount. As speed increases there is less swerve.
Click to expand...
Agreed. With LD shafts, squirt is less but swerve is the same (for similar shots). Adjustments need to be made for the combination of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve"). More info, and a video demo, on this topic can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
 
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