Low deflection stroke

[ShootingArts]

So "parallel" is how the cue movement starts, but not how the cue ends up (angled as usual to compensate for deflection). I think that's what I'd call "adjusting by feel" - I do it a similar way, except I make the slight adjustments while getting down on the shot without placing the cue on the shot line first.

The word parallel implied to me that's how the cue ends up.

pj
chgo

The part in red is wrong. You use a straight stroke with parallel english. The cue is also much better aligned with the path of the cue ball than when using BHE or FHE.

The cue does end up very close to parallel to the original alignment using no side spin. Parallel english requires less compensation than BHE or FHE.

The important thing to understand is that even after the tiny adjustments needed for some shots the angle of the cue stick before and after shooting is nowhere close to the angles it will be to the path of the cue ball using these other forms of english. As I have repeated many times, BHE has the greatest cue angle compared to the cue ball path because the bridge is basically the pivot point, FHE has the next most angle since the pivot point is basically the grip. Since parallel english involves a parallel shift of the cue stick to the side there is no physical pivot point.

Hu

 

[WobblyStroke]

There may be tapers and joint configurations that have coincident nodes for the different modes, but the cues I've seen in slow motion don't, especially for the first hundredth of a second or so. The higher modes (more wiggles in the length of the cue) will tend to disappear faster than the main mode which certainly does have two nodes not far from each end.

TY for the explanation. Obv I'm observing the main ones visible to the naked eye and this book advice probably came from an era before high speed cameras ruined sport

 

[ShootingArts]

Yes, I understand that, but what I'm getting at is that a stroke will be different in feel and possibly effect since the conditions at contact are somewhat different if still accelerating into it (and would be through it). I don't think most amateur strokes accelerate and many decel so they get no action on the ball. A smooth accelerating stroke will be way faster at contact than what seems possible as it starts out so the ball does all sorts of things with seemingly very little effort. It is more about timing. This late acceleration can create the feel of a push through...

This topic just brought up a buried memory for me of a guy I played who got a lesson from Corey Deuel on some spin shots. Back then Corey was just a kid in his early 20s but man could he spin it. Anyway, I was amazed by how slowly this guy seemed to come into the ball but he had this late acceleration as if...u guessed it...pushing through the ball. That ball danced like crazy. Larry Nevel probably had the best draw stroke I ever saw and he has a similar looking pushy delivery which doesn't look too hard or fast but he has that push through look if you can find a vid closer to table height.

Yes, I understand that, but what I'm getting at is that a stroke will be different in feel and possibly effect since the conditions at contact are somewhat different if still accelerating into it (and would be through it). I don't think most amateur strokes accelerate and many decel so they get no action on the ball. A smooth accelerating stroke will be way faster at contact than what seems possible as it starts out so the ball does all sorts of things with seemingly very little effort. It is more about timing. This late acceleration can create the feel of a push through...

This topic just brought up a buried memory for me of a guy I played who got a lesson from Corey Deuel on some spin shots. Back then Corey was just a kid in his early 20s but man could he spin it. Anyway, I was amazed by how slowly this guy seemed to come into the ball but he had this late acceleration as if...u guessed it...pushing through the ball. That ball danced like crazy. Larry Nevel probably had the best draw stroke I ever saw and he has a similar looking pushy delivery which doesn't look too hard or fast but he has that push through look if you can find a vid closer to table height.

Those smooth accelerating strokes into the cue ball are what makes some player's cue balls seem to roll further than other players without more speed. An optical illusion but when you see someone with a stroke like that you know to be wary, chances are he has other skills too!

The local rule was that push shots were legal but not double contacts. We practiced contacting the cue ball above center and slowly accelerating the push. It felt like the tip stayed in contact and there was no video to dispute the claim. If you felt a secondary bump and were a gentleman you announced the foul.

As you note, what video would have revealed about those shots might have been a completely different matter.

Hu

 

[phreaticus]

I'd say a player can produce a shot with low "net deflection" using a normal stroke.


What's a "push through" effect?

pj
chgo

You are quite the parser of words!

As for “what is push thru effect”, I’m not sure - thats the subject of that other thread. You suggested the term meant something related to followthru and duration of tip contact on CB, and described that concept as a myth. I don’t have strong opinions on that subject and was asking why you believe it to be a myth. I’m not privvy to decades of AZB debate, so if this has been hammered out and there are resources debunking such concept as a myth, please steer me to that info.

I have more comments on the topic but I’m off to play pool. I’ll be back tomm during regular office hours

 

[rikdee]

Reading this entire arcane discussion, my conclusion is simply that pool is pretty much an art form, implied physics notwithstanding.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The part in red is wrong. You use a straight stroke with parallel english. The cue is also much better aligned with the path of the cue ball than when using BHE or FHE.

The cue does end up very close to parallel to the original alignment using no side spin. Parallel english requires less compensation than BHE or FHE.

The important thing to understand is that even after the tiny adjustments needed for some shots the angle of the cue stick before and after shooting is nowhere close to the angles it will be to the path of the cue ball using these other forms of english. As I have repeated many times, BHE has the greatest cue angle compared to the cue ball path because the bridge is basically the pivot point, FHE has the next most angle since the pivot point is basically the grip. Since parallel english involves a parallel shift of the cue stick to the side there is no physical pivot point.

Hu

We don't seem to speak the same deflection language. In mine you can't get the same CB reaction with the cue at different angles.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

Reading this entire arcane discussion, my conclusion is simply that pool is pretty much an art form, implied physics notwithstanding.

Lost my home table to hurricane Ida and I understand that thugs have taken over the nearest hall. Need to find a place to hang and play a little. In the meantime I may hang around on here arguing how many angels will fit on the head of a pin or equally obtuse questions. Meantime the best players down at the nearest action hall rely on PIITH, Put It In The Hole, and have never heard of deflection and swerve, squirt and squerve, all the things we amuse ourselves with on the internet.

We don't seem to speak the same deflection language. In mine you can't get the same CB reaction with the cue at different angles.

pj
chgo

Of course you can! Just a given that you won't be hitting in exactly the same spot. The line of force has to be basically identical so different angles will also involve different surface locations.

Likewise, as can be deduced from the above, if you have to hit different surface locations to give the same result, hitting the same surface location using three different forms of english will give three different results as applying english each way results in a different angle of the cue stick in relation to the cue ball's path.

Hu

 

[skip100]

I do notice when watching pros that their shots tend not to have much swerve, with a more forceful hit that keeps the cue ball on line and aggressive position plays that result in more cue ball movement after contact. I know I often miss shots from hitting the ball too softly and letting spin take over, which is a crutch for helping get easier position/reducing cue ball movement after contact at the expense of making it more likely to miss.

 

[evergruven]

Those smooth accelerating strokes into the cue ball are what makes some player's cue balls seem to roll further than other players without more speed. An optical illusion but when you see someone with a stroke like that you know to be wary, chances are he has other skills too!

hu, I actually just had a lesson with double j hisself (my first "proper" lesson!) and we spent some time discussing/playing with this very idea..
pretty interesting, tho I admit a lot of what we discussed went through my ears..I allegedly have the thing taped, but will have to see, then see ^_^
I recall him mentioning the "ld stroke" term as well, and think it relates- but I'll have to check it out..it was a heady time for my wee pool brain

 

[ShootingArts]

hu, I actually just had a lesson with double j hisself (my first "proper" lesson!) and we spent some time discussing/playing with this very idea..
pretty interesting, tho I admit a lot of what we discussed went through my ears..I allegedly have the thing taped, but will have to see, then see ^_^
I recall him mentioning the "ld stroke" term as well, and think it relates- but I'll have to check it out..it was a heady time for my wee pool brain

Hopefully the taping worked! I have never been fortunate enough to talk to a pool master in teaching mode, never paid for lessons either except by the game, but I have seen advice take awhile to work! Sometimes what a high level competitor told me didn't work when I gave it a try. Six months or a year later I went back and gave it another try and my skills were where I was able to take advantage of the advice. In at least one case, I had to come back for the third or fourth pass. I was sure I had been given good advice but it didn't work for me in my current state of development.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We don't seem to speak the same deflection language. In mine you can't get the same CB reaction with the cue at different angles.

Of course you can! Just a given that you won't be hitting in exactly the same spot. The line of force has to be basically identical

Do you mean parallel?

... so different angles will also involve different surface locations.

Therefore different amounts of spin - i.e., different CB reactions.

In our case, different languages.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

Do you mean parallel?


Therefore different amounts of spin - i.e., different CB reactions.

In our case, different languages.

pj
chgo

pj,

We seem to wrestle with you understanding how changing one variable affects others. I do not mean parallel in this case. The force and direction that force is applied has to result in near equal effect on the contact patch of the cue ball. Since the angle of the force applied changes with each type of english, either the force applied or the distance from center will have to change to get the same result with each type of english.

In the second part I am describing what will be required to get the same cue ball reaction. We are talking about complex interactions and when we change one we affect all others. Hit the cue ball the same place with BHE, FHE, and parallel offset english and we will get three different results.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We seem to wrestle with you understanding how changing one variable affects others.

I think we wrestle with differing terminologies (aka semantics).

Hit the cue ball the same place with BHE, FHE, and parallel offset english and we will get three different results.

Of course - do you think I've said otherwise? If so, semantics.

Also, hit the CB in different places, with the same or different cue angles, and you get different results too. We only get identical results with identical cue angles and contact points.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

I think we wrestle with differing terminologies (aka semantics).


Of course - do you think I've said otherwise? If so, semantics.

Also, hit the CB in different places, with the same or different cue angles, and you get different results too. We only get identical results with identical cue angles and contact points.

pj
chgo

pj,

Here is where things get tricky because there are many, mathematically an infinite number of cue angles and contact points, that will yield the same result. When we start changing two variables things are possible that aren't possible changing one variable.

We can get the same result with BHE, FHE, and parallel offset english. However because the cue stick will be at a different angle using each type of english we will have to change one or more other variables also to get the same result. Changing both cue angle and contact point can give the exact same result as proven by the fact that each type of english creates a different cue angle yet by changing the contact point we can get the same result.

Hu