Magic Bullets and Dead Horses

[av84fun]

Efren becam one of the best in the world without a LD shaft as did, Greenleaf,Mizerak, Mosconi, Crane, Hall and on and on and on and on

LD shafts are not better they are just different.

it's all in your head

you want it to make you better so you tell yourself that it did

it had nothing to do with the hours you put in on the table after you finally got the shaft you dreamed about and couldn't put it down for weeks on end.. all that shooting wasn't what got you there.. it was the shaft??

I'm not buying

C'mon man. The EVIDENCE is in. L/D shafts reduce squirt. Squirt is bad. Less squirt is less bad. This is not rockete science.

And how do you know how much Efren's cue deflects? Do you think that all "traditional" shafts have the same deflection? Do you think that Efren went out and bought the shaft that deflected MOST?

Efren LEARNED on traditional shafts and he is wise enough to understand that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But newer players and league players who don't have perfection to worry about screwing up would be highly likely to benefit by the KNOWN AND PROVEN reduction in squirt which is a MAJOR cause of their misses.

Regards,
Jim

L/D shafts are better BECAUSE they are different.

 

[av84fun]

Ok, goddammit I'm gonna try one more time before I go to sleep!

2 guys, clones of each other, exact same childhood, everything EXACTLY the same. They have never played pool before in their lives. Both get a entry level McDermott, except while one gets the standard McDermott shaft and one gets a Pred 314. They both get 4 months of training, EXACTLY the same with exactly the same table time. Now, who is gonna be better after the 4 months are over?

I think it would be the guy with the LD shaft. You are simply missing the whole point of all this: YES practice is very important and overshadows most other factors, but equipment and experience and the other "magic bullets" you listed DEFINITELY matter.

RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[av84fun]

AV..I get the analogy,but I'm surprised by your stance.I'd expect you to more in SS's camp then out given the subject.

Why? SS suggests that NOTHING can improve a pool player's skill except practice. That is just flat wrong. A CUE with nothing but a different WEIGHT and/or balance can improve a player's game. Different TIPS can improve a player's game. The radius of the tip can improve a player's game.

No one dismisses practice as a huge factor but even there, anyone who thinks that there is a lineral relationship between hours practiced and player skill is sadly mistaken.

And practice WHAT SS? Practice HOW SS? If you are not practicing CORRECTLY you are just "grooving your flaws" as a golf instructor once told me.

Regards,
Jim

 

[softshot]

C'mon man. The EVIDENCE is in. L/D shafts reduce squirt. Squirt is bad. Less squirt is less bad. This is not rockete science.

And how do you know how much Efren's cue deflects? Do you think that all "traditional" shafts have the same deflection? Do you think that Efren went out and bought the shaft that deflected MOST?

Efren LEARNED on traditional shafts and he is wise enough to understand that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But newer players and league players who don't have perfection to worry about screwing up would be highly likely to benefit by the KNOWN AND PROVEN reduction in squirt which is a MAJOR cause of their misses.

Regards,
Jim

L/D shafts are better BECAUSE they are different.

dude... wow ok I didn't see you on that side of the argument but.. ok

squirt has nothing to do with why they miss.. neither does their aim.. or whether or not they gamble.

they miss because they shoot with whatever is at hand and only on league night.. they will miss equally as often with an OB1 as they will with a house cue... they don't know ANY shaft so the differences are irrelevant.

squirt is neither bad nor good it is what it is and if you put in time and practice with any shaft you will adjust to it. it's the adjustment that is required not the amount of adjustment.

there are differences in deflection between 2 identical 314's..

any change in equipment must be adjusted to...

changing for the sake of change is foolhardy and will set back the growth of any player.

you get good at this by bending over the felt..

not by throwing $$$$ at someone with a gimmick and a marketing budget

 

[av84fun]

dude... wow ok I didn't see you on that side of the argument but.. ok

squirt has nothing to do with why they miss.. neither does their aim.. or whether or not they gamble.

they miss because they shoot with whatever is at hand and only on league night.. they will miss equally as often with an OB1 as they will with a house cue... they don't know ANY shaft so the differences are irrelevant.

squirt is neither bad nor good it is what it is and if you put in time and practice with any shaft you will adjust to it. it's the adjustment that is required not the amount of adjustment.

there are differences in deflection between 2 identical 314's..

any change in equipment must be adjusted to...

changing for the sake of change is foolhardy and will set back the growth of any player.

you get good at this by bending over the felt..

not by throwing $$$$ at someone with a gimmick and a marketing budget

OK...I get it. You're trying to be funny. Cool. I like that. RIGHT...Aiming errors have nothing to do with why people miss!!!

LOL...Thanks for the laugh!!

(-:

 

[rossaroni]

lets take your average everyday APA4 we will give him a spot in the field at the US Open...

we will give him 2 days with Hal a brand new OB1 and bet his house on every match in the tourney..

if all of these hocus pocus remedies work he should be a favorite to win...

He is not favored if he plays an APA5 that spent 2 days with Hal and a brand new OB1. I don't think anyone thinks(maybe some do) that a ld shaft is a magic cure to missing balls, but it may help the majority of people with their games. Why do you think a disproportionate ammount of pros play with these shafts?

 

[softshot]

Why? SS suggests that NOTHING can improve a pool player's skill except practice. That is just flat wrong. A CUE with nothing but a different WEIGHT and/or balance can improve a player's game. Different TIPS can improve a player's game. The radius of the tip can improve a player's game.

No one dismisses practice as a huge factor but even there, anyone who thinks that there is a lineral relationship between hours practiced and player skill is sadly mistaken.

And practice WHAT SS? Practice HOW SS? If you are not practicing CORRECTLY you are just "grooving your flaws" as a golf instructor once told me.

Regards,
Jim

that is not what I am saying at all

everything can help your game with practice and adjustment.. it is the time involved that matters....

Ray Martin's "100 critical shots in pool" has helped my game immensely not because I read it.. but because I have hundreds of hours invested in mastering it.

incorporating new techniques into your practice will help you there is a ton of good info out there... but simply reading or watching or buying it won't get you there you need to DO it over and over and over again..

 

[softshot]

OK...I get it. You're trying to be funny. Cool. I like that. RIGHT...Aiming errors have nothing to do with why people miss!!!

LOL...Thanks for the laugh!!

(-:

how old are you anyway??? 12, 13?

if you have been playing for more than a year and cannot aim... quit now maybe bowling or darts is more your style..

if you can find the contact point then you can find the line that gets the cueball to that contact point... the aiming portion of our exercise is now over and we get back to practicing the stroke to deliver the ball to that point...

this is elementary pool....where did I lose you?...

sit in the corner with a protractor and calculator trying to figure the degree of pivot adjustment as it relates to your bridge hand while factoring the friction of the cloth vs the current wear of the balls..

I'll be the quiet guy in the other corner sinking shot after shot

 

[av84fun]

that is not what I am saying at all

everything can help your game with practice and adjustment.. it is the time involved that matters....

Ray Martin's "100 critical shots in pool" has helped my game immensely not because I read it.. but because I have hundreds of hours invested in mastering it.

incorporating new techniques into your practice will help you there is a ton of good info out there... but simply reading or watching or buying it won't get you there you need to DO it over and over and over again..

That is EXACTLY what you were saying...."its not the gadget or the system or the myth that made you better..

It was the Practice..."

You should be able to parse your own sentences sir...and in the above sentece you utterly dismiss "gadgets" and "systems" and place the ENTIRE skill improvement process on practice. You are wrong.
Jim

 

[softshot]

He is not favored if he plays an APA5 that spent 2 days with Hal and a brand new OB1. I don't think anyone thinks(maybe some do) that a ld shaft is a magic cure to missing balls, but it may help the majority of people with their games. Why do you think a disproportionate ammount of pros play with these shafts?

pro's can sink balls period....with any shaft on any table any day of the week... and they got there through years of relentless practice.

they play with a predator because predator pays them to... thats all

if OB1 paid them more they would tell you predator is crap and OB1 is all that you need to shoot like them..

and if McDermott paid them one million dollars to say that low deflection shafts are junk and stock McDermott shafts are the best.. then they would say it and prove it.. using whatever shaft they were paid to push..

 

[softshot]

That is EXACTLY what you were saying...."its not the gadget or the system or the myth that made you better..

It was the Practice..."

You should be able to parse your own sentences sir...and in the above sentece you utterly dismiss "gadgets" and "systems" and place the ENTIRE skill improvement process on practice. You are wrong.
Jim

NO I am NOT..

without practice none of the things you read or buy will help you.

with diligent practice most will help.. but the practice had more to do with it than the system or product.

 

[rossaroni]

pro's can sink balls period....with any shaft on any table any day of the week... and they got there through years of relentless practice.

they play with a predator because predator pays them to... thats all

if OB1 paid them more they would tell you predator is crap and OB1 is all that you need to shoot like them..

and if McDermott paid them one million dollars to say that low deflection shafts are junk and stock McDermott shafts are the best.. then they would say it and prove it.. using whatever shaft they were paid to push..

Well, I don't think that the majority of them are paid to play with a Predator shaft. Do you happen to know that many of the best players in your state play with Predator shafts? One of them even put a Predator shaft on his cue that he was sponsored by. I don't play with a Predator, but I don't think that all the players that have switched to them, are doing it for no reason.

 

[softshot]

Well, I don't think that the majority of them are paid to play with a Predator shaft. Do you happen to know that many of the best players in your state play with Predator shafts? One of them even put a Predator shaft on his cue that he was sponsored by. I don't play with a Predator, but I don't think that all the players that have switched to them, are doing it for no reason.

I think it's hype... I don't use LD

and as far as I can tell ( I am not sure) but you and I are the only two I know of that qualify to be AZB king of Minnesota...lets get it on..

you go buy whatever you think you need... I'll be practicing

 

[rossaroni]

I think it's hype... I don't use LD

and as far as I can tell ( I am not sure) but you and I are the only two I know of that qualify to be AZB king of Minnesota...lets get it on..

you go buy whatever you think you need... I'll be practicing

That is fine. I will be at Shooters tomorrow night if you can stop by. I will be out of town this weekend. What game/games would you like to play? How about bar table 8-ball,big table 9-ball and one pocket? You don't gamble at all, right?

 

[av84fun]

how old are you anyway??? 12, 13?
if you have been playing for more than a year and cannot aim... quit now maybe bowling or darts is more your style..

if you can find the contact point then you can find the line that gets the cueball to that contact point... the aiming portion of our exercise is now over and we get back to practicing the stroke to deliver the ball to that point...

this is elementary pool....where did I lose you?...

sit in the corner with a protractor and calculator trying to figure the degree of pivot adjustment as it relates to your bridge hand while factoring the friction of the cloth vs the current wear of the balls..

I'll be the quiet guy in the other corner sinking shot after shot

Too bad you had to descend into being a smart ass but you only demean yourself in doing so.

"if you have been playing for more than a year and cannot aim... quit now maybe bowling or darts is more your style.."

That is one of the most ignorant posts in recent memory. If you think that every player with 1 year experience knows all there is to know about aiming then you know NOTHING about this game.

Possibly you didn't get the memo but such issues as the use of english which causes such things as squirt, swerve and SIT will cause the shooter to MISS if he uses your little grade school contact point aiming SYSTEM...so SIR....the player must ADJUST his aim to compensate and if you think a high level of skill at doing so can be acquired by ANYONE in a year then you are in the world's smallest minority...probably a minority of ONE.

So stuff your smart ass remarks where they belong and in the meantime, I'll join Spiderwebcomm in taking another time out.

See ya down the road...unless I come to my senses and get out of the Cuckoos nest altogether.

Or better yet... maybe Wilson will do me a favor and ban me so dweebs like you won't get me riled up anymore.

)-:

 

[softshot]

That is fine. I will be at Shooters tomorrow night if you can stop by. I will be out of town this weekend. What game/games would you like to play? How about bar table 8-ball,big table 9-ball and one pocket? You don't gamble at all, right?

I believe gambling is required for an AZB king match freindly $50 is the bet as I understand it..

I'll play box 8, big table straight pool, or big table 10ball with safety breaks allowed and the 1,2,3 balls must be spotted on the corners..

tomarrow night "might" be doable though next Wednesday would probably be better for me

this deserves its own thread i'd like to keep this one on track..

 

[rossaroni]

I believe gambling is required for an AZB king match freindly $50 is the bet as I understand it..

I'll play box 8, big table straight pool, or big table 10ball with safety breaks allowed and the 1,2,3 balls must be spotted on the corners..

tomarrow night "might" be doable though next Wednesday would probably be better for me

this deserves its own thread i'd like to keep this one on track..

You can start it's own thread, but I am not going to. I am not one to make a challenge, especially on the computer-there are more important threads that should take up space. How about the 3 games you mentioned, plus one-pocket? I don't play straight pool, but will. $50 each set ok? If you are really serious, just pm me and I will give you my number.

 

[softshot]

Too bad you had to descend into being a smart ass but you only demean yourself in doing so.

"if you have been playing for more than a year and cannot aim... quit now maybe bowling or darts is more your style.."

That is one of the most ignorant posts in recent memory. If you think that every player with 1 year experience knows all there is to know about aiming then you know NOTHING about this game.

Possibly you didn't get the memo but such issues as the use of english which causes such things as squirt, swerve and SIT will cause the shooter to MISS if he uses your little grade school contact point aiming SYSTEM...so SIR....the player must ADJUST his aim to compensate and if you think a high level of skill at doing so can be acquired by ANYONE in a year then you are in the world's smallest minority...probably a minority of ONE.

So stuff your smart ass remarks where they belong and in the meantime, I'll join Spiderwebcomm in taking another time out.

See ya down the road...unless I come to my senses and get out of the Cuckoos nest altogether.

Or better yet... maybe Wilson will do me a favor and ban me so dweebs like you won't get me riled up anymore.

)-:

I'm not demeaning myself.. I'm sticking to my guns.

aiming IS easy

the execution is hard

I have seen through the fog of propaganda and misinformation there are many things on line and available for purchase that can help any player willing to put in the time to make them work..

calling Hal isn't enough

buying a predator isn't enough

gambling isn't enough

if any of those things get you to practice even an hour a day.. you will get better..

but the hour a day is more responsible for the improvement than anything else..

 

[cigjonser]

...and place the ENTIRE skill improvement process on practice. You are wrong.

I disagree with this. "Skill" can only be improved through practice.

Switching to an LD shaft will not improve skill. It will reduce the deviation of the path of the cue ball away from the line of aim, but by how much? Only experimentation (practice) will provide that answer.

Gambling will also not improve skill in the sense of shotmaking ability or position or pattern play. It can improve one's ability to perform under pressure, but that is also practice: practicing playing under pressure, which is a separate skill.

Aiming systems, books, videos, etc., only increase knowledge, which is still different from skill. Knowing what is required to accomplish something and being able to accomplish it are two very different things.

I think an interesting hypothetical situation would be if two robots were given cues, one given an LD shaft and the other given an HD(?) shaft, and they had the same programming to be 100% accurate with that cue, etc., and they had to match up and play a race, but they had to use the other's cue and they couldn't learn from mistakes; the programming was "locked in" so to speak. Also, they had to use extreme right english on every shot. I'd say it would be a tie. One would be undercutting a lot, expecting more deflection, and the other would be overcutting, expecting less deflection. (If the pocket was to the right of the OB. The reverse would be true if the pocket was to the left of the OB, but you get the idea).

That alone proves, at least to me, that equipment will do nothing to improve your game, you still have to learn its unique characteristics, (% of deflection off the aim line, tip radius, weight, etc.) and that can only be done with error correction, a.k.a. practice.

JMHO.

Cig

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Agreed mostly, except for the gambling. Practice doesn't always make you better in pressure situations. I know practice champions who run out playing the ghost, but can't make 4 balls against a real opponent.

Also, I think gambling is the absolute fastest way to learn the game of 1-pocket. While it won't immediately teach you what the "right" shot is, it will *certainly* teach you what the "wrong" shot is (when you inevitably shoot at your hole and sell out).

First of I think you are possibly right as far as some people are concerned. That ?gambling? could make some people better , faster at Pool.

But there are those who can PLAY GREAT if they are not gambling, as to SOME the MONEY at Risk in the Gamble, is like having a person with a piece of twine attached to you belt loop jerk the twine every time you are pulling the trigger on a shot.

If one is not MENTALLY CAPABLE of Turning Off, or Totally Forgetting about the MONEY at Risk when gambling I would disagree with your above statement. Than Gambling become a NEGATIVE FACTOR.

I do not mind putting up $5.00, or as much as $15.00 on a Tournament Fee, as after the fee is paid in my mind it becomes part of a Prize Pool, and I can remove it from my Playing equation. More than that amount become a distraction for me personally!

I do not gamble when the stakes become more than a Drink, or a ONE DOLLAR on a SET. The MONEY FACTOR become a distraction to my BEST GAME.

Yes I know there are those cold blooded gamblers, who do not think about 20, 50, 100, or MORE Bucks a Set, or Game, and can still play their best game with that money riding on their level of play. If you have that personality, that is a unique trait IMHO.

But I would personally suggest to those want to be GAMBLERS, when the amount bet, riding upon a set or game, become a factor in your mind as you play, that distracts from you BEST PLAY. Lower the bet to you comfort ZONE where you play at your best, and can win.

Do not get caught up in the Predator/Prey Syndrome, where you are convinced Gambling out of you comfort zone will make you a better Pool player.

As it IMHO will not. It will only line someone else pockets with your hard earned cash because you played out of your personal comfort zone IMHO.

Too those who disagree with me that is O.K., as this Forum is for each of us to express, our personal ideas, and opinions about many subject.