Making it vs. Shape

It's all one shot...

This comes up all the time...it's important to do both. If you practice and shoot with the mindset that as long as I can make a ball and see a ball and pocket I'm fine, then you'll be a C player for life. The earlier you learn to visualize where the cue ball will go after contact and adjust as necessary the faster you'll progress up the food chain. I see guys all the time who've been shooting for decades, and all they do is cinch balls...and are sure to be out of line within two balls. If they run more than three balls it's completely by coincidence. Then when they miss they dance around with body english, hoping the ball rolls safe, like they were angling for it the whole time.

The closer to centerball you stay the better, as the angle off the collision is more predictable...use only as much speed and spin as you need to put the whitey where you want...no more no less.

OBTW, another reason for a difference in fast cut shots and slow rolling them is stroke error. The faster the stroke the more likely you are to squirt it thick and dive into the rail. Really slow rolling with a spin shot has the added variable of the spinning cueball's roll-off...it curves offline. Really cool if you adjust for it and do it on purpose (for a reason, not just to look pretty).

Well said. Players create an imaginary problem when they consider pocketing the ball and accomplishing position as two separate endeavors. The answer is rather simple. Plan the shot so that you can achieve both goals, and don't shoot until you have the plan solidly confirmed in your mind.

Yes, sometimes one or the other is more important, but you don't need to focus on just one, - they are both part of the same plan!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
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I'm the last person who should give ANY kind of shot advice, but regarding the amount of CIT it might be helpful to think of it this way (or, not; depending on how you like to think):

A slow CB imparts slower spin on the OB (and a fast CB will impart faster OB spin)...but in the "slow" example the OB will be in contact with the cloth for a longer time, allowing the spin to have more effect on the OB's direction. It's like the angle off the cushion of a fast ball vs. a slow one: the slow ball results in more angle because it's in contact with the cushion longer.

There is probably a CB speed at which OB spin and cloth friction cancel each other out, but that would be different for every variable that effects cloth speed (cloth, humidity, etc.)

As mentioned earlier, my shot-making is so bad that this is all a moot point for me...but I enjoy thinking about the physics of the game.
 
I think it would be nice if everyone giving advise on playing pool had to show a video of their speed!

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From The New Yorker, 1993, when the InterNetz was still young.
 
I think it would be nice if everyone giving advice on playing pool had to show a video of their speed!

One problem with that is that many players who never won a tournament have better understandings of various aspects of the game than some world champions. We often see examples of "doing without knowing" in pool. On forums we're stuck with judging a poster mostly by his writing which is tough if you don't already have some knowledge of the subject. Fortunately, we have YouTube now, which helps.
 
I have found that as I play more precise position there is often only one way to play a shot. Especially if the cue ball comes off a cushion, there is only one set of speed, spin and angle values that will get the the cue ball to exactly where I want. It is not a matter of using "get in spin" -- the table layout forces my shots.

Of course on some shots you can trade off, for example, draw for spin or follow for speed, but on many shots if you plan to put the cue ball on a spot, there is only one choice.
 
The OP shoots mainly straight pool. If he should play One Pocket, in some situations it is more important to play position primarily while sacrificing pocketing accuracy.
 
No offense slach... questions like this are classic overthinking.

Most players can't finely control which part of the pocket they hit unless it's a fairly close shot, nor hit with the same cue ball speed over and over. They'll convince themselves a miss was due to some unknown quirk of physics rather than "I just cut the ball at the wrong angle."

How many times have we all seen a player butcher a shot and then say "ahh shit, I hit it too hard?"

You can end up missing balls trying to compensate for this stuff manually rather than letting your brain do it automatically. Hit with the speed appropriate for the position you want. Let your brain and eyes coordinate to tell you where to aim.

If a shot is already difficult, hitting at a speed that's closer to your comfort zone (lag speed in my case but your mileage may vary) probably decreases the chances of a miss. But if your comfort speed will result in leaving yourself a bank or another long missable shot, you should just use the speed that gets you shape. Playing for the best possible cue ball position all the time is a faster route to getting good than cinching the tough ones.

I agree totally.
 
I'm going to say "Make It" before shape, but it really depends on the game. I'd say for the majority of games though, this holds true. On shots where you are reasonably sure you can make the shot, just be sure you make the shot! I can't tell you how many times I've missed a ball trying to get "guaranteed shape" instead of making the ball and possibly not getting shape. The not making the ball part made me lose the game many a time! :p
 
What’s a good shot and what’s a great shot? Good shots involve the pot; great shots involve the pot and the position, if you settle for good shots you will never become a good player let alone a great one.

There are shots that come up where the requirement of getting ideal shape would make the shot itself a low % one and getting “good or ok” shape would make the shot a very high % one. There are shots where you sometimes have to “let the CB loose” (that should be a very uncomfortable thing). If this comes up a lot you are doing something wrong.

It is impossible to answer this question with a “blanket rule” like “always make the ball” or “it is positional considerations that come 1st always”. This is part of getting better at the game and each shot has to be evaluated on an individual basis.

The problem with “always make the ball” is the “getting a little out of line” with each shot and then this happens more and more and more and then you have a low % shot, you miss and then the table is better for your opponent.

The problem with “position comes 1st” is that “IDEAL” position can sometimes make the high % shot a low % shot it is not a 1 vs. 2; these are equally important. The reason there are so many “make the ball” people is what stands out in their memory. They remember the games they lost because they missed the ball far better than the games they won by just playing good/tight position, it’s very natural.

Players create an imaginary problem when they consider pocketing the ball and accomplishing position as two separate endeavors. The answer is rather simple. Plan the shot so that you can achieve both goals, and don't shoot until you have the plan solidly confirmed in your mind.

Yes, sometimes one or the other is more important, but you don't need to focus on just one, - they are both part of the same plan!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

This is 100% correct. So let me break down your post and take things 1 at a time.


As I've played more I've learned that on a cut shot a harder hit cuts less and a softer shot cuts more. This is more obvious on longer shots (object ball to pocket).

This is as you say later “not phrased well” and you’re right it isn’t and I always think it’s important to have it deep in your mind the “right way”. In order to access this info quickly you should form relationships of the general ways that the balls work. PJ knows the science of this game very very well and from what I have seen of his posts I can tell you that what he has said is 100% correct; however accessing that info as it is layed out and transferring it to your subconscious in the middle of a run would be challenging to say the least.

I would say (especially at 1st) you should think more conceptually with the idea of “relationships”. Now I am not going to get into the argument of the harder you hit the ball the more precision you lose yea well NO KIDDIN! I am just going to talk about how to solidify the effects of speed and what it does so that the conscious can get the message to the subconscious easily.

THE HARDER YOU HIT THE BALL THE MORE YOU STRAIGHTEN THE LINES OUT. That means all the lines CB coming off a rail, OB coming off a rail, the line of centers, how far the CB holds the tangent line after contact with the OB or when you shoot a throw or masse shot for that matter.

So organize it in your mind like this. No matter what the more force there is the more the line of centers will hold. No matter what the more force there is the more the longer the CB will travel along the tangent line. I am sure someone will mention deflection/squirt. And to those I say again “no kiddin”; what I am speaking of is the effects of ball interaction NOT tip/CB interaction.

This should help not just your potting and positional accuracy right away with any type of shot cuts, banks, follow, draw, cluster (especially in 14.1), throw etc.. etc..

Are you better off with a consistent shot speed and being comfortable with a consistent cut angle (easier to maker, but losing some control over shape) or adjusting for both speed and cut angle?

As I said, it’s situational you can’t give a “go to” answer to this question no matter what anyone tells you.

I'm not sure I've phased this question well, but when you're down on a critical shot do you focus on a consistent speed and angle or do you add some complexity with speed for better shape? What's more important? This is a trade-off that's been bugging me. Does this kind of stuff get in your mind when you're about to shoot? How do you more accomplished player handle this? Obviously, making the shot and getting good shape's ideal, but practically what do you really focus on to get the best result? BTW, I mostly play straight pool.

I have to stress this because all pool players have this problem regardless of skill level from beginner to pro. I put this well in my paper “Pools 10 most important points” here is the front and back of point #10

A pool shot has two parts: analysis and execution. DO NOT DO BOTH AT ONCE!!! Analyze IN A STANDING POSITION so that you have a birds eye view of the table. In the analysis stage, you observe the layout of the table and make a plan (be as precise as possible). The execution stage starts when you bend over the table and take that first warm up stroke. THE ANALYSIS STAGE IS OVER! If you catch yourself analyzing when you're executing stand up and start over.

10. This is an advanced mistake right up to the professional level. Do you best to separate the 2 stages; also remember in your analysis phase be as specific as possible (look at #5)

As you say “This is a trade-off that's been bugging me” and that’s how you should be thinking about it “what’s the risk/reward factor and how does that affect my shot decision” also as Ewa Laurance says “try not to think of the shot as being easy or hard; try to think of them on a percentage basis” this will reduce carelessness on “easy” shots and anxiety on “hard” shots.
 
One problem with that is that many players who never won a tournament have better understandings of various aspects of the game than some world champions. We often see examples of "doing without knowing" in pool. On forums we're stuck with judging a poster mostly by his writing which is tough if you don't already have some knowledge of the subject. Fortunately, we have YouTube now, which helps.

Agreed. I know many great players who've never heard of any of this, and, more pertinently, have no interest in it whatsoever. They don't want to pollute their minds with another variable that can go wrong. All their interested in is getting the balls in the hole, and I'd wager many have no idea how they do it. They don't analyse; they just do.

Muscle memory is important, as is sheer will to make balls. Analysing shots on a micro level is a dangerous thing to do, particularly when the pressure is on.

As far as videos goes, it would be an interesting exercise to see who can play and who can only talk. I'd like to see the instructors play as well.
 
As I've played more I've learned that on a cut shot a harder hit cuts less and a softer shot cuts more. This is more obvious on longer shots (object ball to pocket). Are you better off with a consistent shot speed and being comfortable with a consistent cut angle (easier to maker, but losing some control over shape) or adjusting for both speed and cut angle? I'm not sure I've phased this question well, but when you're down on a critical shot do you focus on a consistent speed and angle or do you add some complexity with speed for better shape? What's more important? This is a trade-off that's been bugging me. Does this kind of stuff get in your mind when you're about to shoot? How do you more accomplished player handle this? Obviously, making the shot and getting good shape's ideal, but practically what do you really focus on to get the best result? BTW, I mostly play straight pool.

You always play the cue ball. If you miss the shot dont worry about it. The next time the shot comes up....you will make it......and get position.

Take care of whitey and whitey will take care of you. :smile:

John
 
For me personally, if I know that making the shot or playing shape are both low percentage, I'll just forget about either and play safe.

I've just found that in those situations it's almost always easier to play safe.
 
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