Masse is it legal?

excessknowledge

excessknowledge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am sitting here with a friend that has agreed to train me a bit.We are makeing a list and plan of how I will proceed with my pool future on paper.My plan in black and white.One thing that has arrised is Jump shots and masse shots.Both I am fair and consistant at about 50% of the time.The question I have is masse shots are they legal in tournament play?Should I practice masse at all?
 
excessknowledge said:
I am sitting here with a friend that has agreed to train me a bit.We are makeing a list and plan of how I will proceed with my pool future on paper.My plan in black and white.One thing that has arrised is Jump shots and masse shots.Both I am fair and consistant at about 50% of the time.The question I have is masse shots are they legal in tournament play?Should I practice masse at all?
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Anyone know where I can get a tournament rule book or a link to rules I could print out ?
 
excessknowledge said:
I am sitting here with a friend that has agreed to train me a bit.We are makeing a list and plan of how I will proceed with my pool future on paper.My plan in black and white.One thing that has arrised is Jump shots and masse shots.Both I am fair and consistant at about 50% of the time.The question I have is masse shots are they legal in tournament play?Should I practice masse at all?
Click to expand...


Masse shots are legal, they're just not terribly practical. There are instances where the correct shot is to play a small-masse (or curve) where you're only jacked-up about 30 degrees and only wish to make a slight deviation from a straight path. A full-masse, with the cue raised above the shoulder would be an extremely rare shot in a tournament since probability of attaining a positive outcome would be slim. They do come up but often times it's when the shooter is left with no other alternative.

Keep in mind that both jumps and masse's are specialty shots. They represent a small percentage of what you'll typically encounter in a match. Success is often the result of avoiding these situations, not dealing with them. If your goal is to get better, I would work on position play, pocketing and strategy and spend less time on the glamourous stuff.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Masse shots are legal, they're just not terribly practical. There are instances where the correct shot is to play a small-masse (or curve) where you're only jacked-up about 30 degrees and only wish to make a slight deviation from a straight path. A full-masse, with the cue raised above the shoulder would be an extremely rare shot in a tournament since probability of attaining a positive outcome would be slim. They do come up but often times it's when the shooter is left with no other alternative.

Keep in mind that both jumps and masse's are specialty shots. They represent a small percentage of what you'll typically encounter in a match. Success is often the result of avoiding these situations, not dealing with them. If your goal is to get better, I would work on position play, pocketing and strategy and spend less time on the glamourous stuff.
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Oh agreed.Position play is the factor but I do want to make sure I have enough guns in my arsonal.My real thing I need to work on is my consistancy.I really do not think I have ever needed a masse shot except in straight pool a couple times and that was not to make the shot but rather to achieve a safety.We are thinking here to practice every 2 weeks 1/2 day on these shots would keep them comfortable enough in my mind.I just want to make sure I feel comfortable with the stroke if it ever comes to play.I do not think I will place myself in the position of needing one of them but I know others may place me into that position.Thank you for the link and your suggestions.
 
excessknowledge said:
Oh agreed.Position play is the factor but I do want to make sure I have enough guns in my arsonal.My real thing I need to work on is my consistancy.I really do not think I have ever needed a masse shot except in straight pool a couple times and that was not to make the shot but rather to achieve a safety.We are thinking here to practice every 2 weeks 1/2 day on these shots would keep them comfortable enough in my mind.I just want to make sure I feel comfortable with the stroke if it ever comes to play.I do not think I will place myself in the position of needing one of them but I know others may place me into that position.Thank you for the link and your suggestions.
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Oh, that's just the beginning of what a masse could be used for. If you want to see a useful and practical full-masse, check this out (I only have two balls on the table for simplicity's sake):

START(
%H[3T4%Ir3H2%P\1W9%U[7V0%V[9W1%][1D1%^[4S8%eC7a4%_q1S4%`[5T5
%a[5U1
)END
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Oh, that's just the beginning of what a masse could be used for. If you want to see a useful and practical full-masse, check this out (I only have two balls on the table for simplicity's sake):

START(
%H[3T4%Ir3H2%P\1W9%U[7V0%V[9W1%][1D1%^[4S8%eC7a4%_q1S4%`[5T5
%a[5U1
)END
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How can I see this Jude? where do I go to put it in or what do I need to download to view this?
 
Masse' shots,well some of them, are not always legal. I play in a bar league and you cannot raise your elbow above your forearm to shoot any shot inclucing a masse'. Other than that, I've never even heard of a masse' shot being illegal.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Masse shots are legal, they're just not terribly practical. There are instances where the correct shot is to play a small-masse (or curve) where you're only jacked-up about 30 degrees and only wish to make a slight deviation from a straight path. A full-masse, with the cue raised above the shoulder would be an extremely rare shot in a tournament since probability of attaining a positive outcome would be slim. They do come up but often times it's when the shooter is left with no other alternative.

Keep in mind that both jumps and masse's are specialty shots. They represent a small percentage of what you'll typically encounter in a match. Success is often the result of avoiding these situations, not dealing with them. If your goal is to get better, I would work on position play, pocketing and strategy and spend less time on the glamourous stuff.
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Agree with most of this, Jude, but I think the value of subtle masses in defensive play is often overlooked. When you're snookered from a ball that can't be pocketed even with a jump, it's important to note that the masse is the shot where you may have the most realistic chance to control the cue ball accurately. Being able to masse into the correct angle at the right speed is a very nice feature to have in your safety play and kicking. I believe that choosing between the kick, the masse and the jump is a very important aqspect of strategic play, which you have stressed, and those with competence in all areas will have a distinct advantage in the tactical portion of the game.
 
Rickw said:
Masse' shots,well some of them, are not always legal. I play in a bar league and you cannot raise your elbow above your forearm to shoot any shot inclucing a masse'. Other than that, I've never even heard of a masse' shot being illegal.
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Isn't your elbow always above your forearm? Do you mean you can't raise your forearm above your elbow or elbow above your shoulder?
 
Sorry, maybe that didn't make too much sense but then neither does the rule as far as I'm concerned. I believe you cannot raise your elbow above your shoulder so that your cue is pointing down on the cb at a steep angle.
 
The hard curves I usually shoot like a trick shot artist would, so My elbow is always below My shoulder on those anyway. For that matter My elbow is even below my forearm. On a slight angle where I only need to get around a quarter of a ball or less I just jack up on the cue some. Good to know I need to watch My elbow on those.


I aggree both ways, I do think they come up regardless of how good the position play is going, but at the same time the hard curves can get away from you easily even if your pretty good at them. I sometimes curve around so much on the tough ones that I get too much on It. It's nice to be able to masse that well, but does hurt the consistency some as mentioned. the lesser curves I have My good nights when My percentage is high, but try not to put Myself in that position more then I have to, ofcoarse others will put you there though :D .

The jump has never been My strong point, I prefer to masse or kick at the ball instead, and keep the cue on the table for better control, but I am going to start practicing it more. I've been burned in more hill/hill matches because I thought I had someone hooked good, and they made a good jump shot to get out, and then ran the rack out on me. It's enough to make Me want to change My ways and give It a try for alittle while. Anyone have any pointers on jumping I may not know of ? Thanks Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
Anyone have any pointers on jumping I may not know of ? Thanks Greg
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I'm not sure what level of pointers you're looking for, but at the top of my list would be using a cue with a phenolic tip. Whether it's a straight jump cue, or a j/b, or even a full size cue, I've personally found that a phenolic tip is like "magic" when it comes to jumping.

The second biggest factor is the equipment you're playing on. Some table & cue ball combinations just don't seem to accept jump shots well. If you play in a variety of places you have to know those limits and work within them.

Speaking of a variety of places, concerning the initial question about masse & jump shots, make sure you know the rules of the establishment you're in. A lot of places have specific rules posted that outlaw jump and/or masse shots, presumably to protect their equipment from hackers.

~Chris
 
Qnut said:
The second biggest factor is the equipment you're playing on. Some table & cue ball combinations just don't seem to accept jump shots well. If you play in a variety of places you have to know those limits and work within them.

~Chris
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which combinations of balls and tables are you talking about? i've played on just about every major table, with centennials and super pro's.........and never really noticed any major difference or problem jumping balls.

i'd be interested as to what you noticed, then i could try it myself.

if you're talking using cheap balls......then thats another story.....LOL

VAP
 
Qnut said:
I'm not sure what level of pointers you're looking for, but at the top of my list would be using a cue with a phenolic tip. Whether it's a straight jump cue, or a j/b, or even a full size cue, I've personally found that a phenolic tip is like "magic" when it comes to jumping.

The second biggest factor is the equipment you're playing on. Some table & cue ball combinations just don't seem to accept jump shots well. If you play in a variety of places you have to know those limits and work within them.

Speaking of a variety of places, concerning the initial question about masse & jump shots, make sure you know the rules of the establishment you're in. A lot of places have specific rules posted that outlaw jump and/or masse shots, presumably to protect their equipment from hackers.

~Chris
Click to expand...


Thanks for the advice,

I have the jump/break with phenolic tip, and actually I can jump, I have just chosen not to for the most part over the years. I am far from pro level, but some people consider me somewhat seasoned I guess, as I have been playing for quite a few years. The tips I would be interested in would be things like- more elevation when closer to a ball, better cue ball control after the jump, and so on. Like I said I have simply just chosen not use the jump as part of My game that much. Partly because of the cb control thing, and also out of respect for peoples tables. I have done alright just using the masse and kicks for many years up to this point, but want to get the jump down alittle better now.

I understand the equipment part, and am fully aware of the difference in cue ball size from table to table, and felt grab, so I'm with you there. I also understand how some owners feel, but I am not one of the mentioned hackers, altough many years ago I had a buddy put his cuestick through the felt on My table trying to do what he saw me do after he had a few too many I guess. :mad: Last time I give lessons on My table :p

I played a tournament in another county about ten years back, and played this guy, I went at him hard, gave it My all, and thought I had him hooked, He was the first person to get out, and win like that on Me. Afterwards I find out that the guy was basicaly the man to beat up there. The people watching kept asking My dad if I even knew who I was playing, and in all honesty I did not, probably the only reason why I came as close as I did.
I was just looking at the results of an open or pro tournament held here recently with some big names in It, and believe It was him that I had seen placed in the top 10. believe It was 6th but not sure, anyway pretty sure It was him, He was good enough to compete back then so imagine he has only become even better over the 10 years or so since I had the pleasure to play against him.

I noticed when the amatuar tournament came through here a few people were jumping out successfully when they needed to, and since it will be coming back our way several times. I was thinking about playing in It, and though that It's about time I start putting more effort into getting My jump shots down. Just figured that some of the seasoned players may have some advice on the subject, and I can use all I can get. :D Thanks Greg
 
vapoolplayer said:
which combinations of balls and tables are you talking about? i've played on just about every major table, with centennials and super pro's.........and never really noticed any major difference or problem jumping balls.

i'd be interested as to what you noticed, then i could try it myself.

if you're talking using cheap balls......then thats another story.....LOL

VAP
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It is a lot easier to jump on tables with the "rug" as opposed to Simonis-same thing with masses imho. More friction-less slide.

But reading between the lines i think the poster should donate less than 1% of his time working on Masses and Jumps for at least 2 years.
 
vapoolplayer said:
which combinations of balls and tables are you talking about? i've played on just about every major table, with centennials and super pro's.........and never really noticed any major difference or problem jumping balls.

i'd be interested as to what you noticed, then i could try it myself.

if you're talking using cheap balls......then thats another story.....LOL

VAP
Click to expand...



LoL, Cheap balls will do It everytime. I may have misunderstood but I took It as if refering to coin op tables possibly, where the cue ball is larger, and comercial felt that is used, as opposed to a nice 9 foot with high speed cloth and the same size CB as the object balls on a decent table. seems as if there would be some differences there, but then again I am the one trying to practice the jump in the first place, so I could be wrong I suppose. Would'nt be the first time :D Greg
 
Misc ...

These levels mentioned are 2-12 handicap levels in 9 ball:

levels 5-6 - up to 1/4 ball masse
level 7-9 1/2 ball masse
level 10 & up - full ball masse

and a point in fact about jump shots - many times I am playing someone and they have a jump shot and I know they can hit the ball, but will 'sell out' to me after hitting it, when they would have been better 'kicking' at the ball with a higher percentage of getting a 'leave' themselves than they would have by jumping to hit the ball. Just because you have a jump stick doesn't mean you should jump everytime you are safetied, you should let the leave dictate which is the best way for you to go and which one will give you the best leave for your opponent.
 
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