Matchroom tables and varying pocket sizes

[jbart65]

I've watched every major Matchroom tournament extensively for the past two years and the 2024 UK Open may have been my least enjoyable. Was it the 3 7/8 pockets? I dunno, but when a pro's pro like Niels Feijin complains, I think it pays to listen.

It all started when I saw Max Lechner miss more shots in one match than he's probably ever missed in his professional life! And it carried on. Players seemingly more afraid to take tough shots and banks, resorting to safeties when they might not have in the past.

Was it due to the pocket size? I don't know, but I naturally suspect.

MR's goal, Emily Frazer said, was to make the Diamonds play the same (as tough) as the 4-inch Rassons. This is ridiculous. Diamonds and Rassons are made very differently and cannot be made to play exactly the same. Nor is a Diamond with 4-inch pockets easy by any stretch of the imagination. How could anyone think that?

The problem is MR, not the tables. If MR wants consistency, it's easy. Just use one brand of table!

Does MLB use two different baseball makers? Does the NBA use two different brands of basketballs? Does the NFL use two different brands of footballs? No, no and no.

But of course, MR won't use just one brand of table because they get more money by having two official table sponsors. I get it, and that's fine by me.

Yet MR should just play with tables with 4-inch pockets and stop trying to make two different brands seem like one and the same. Sometimes it will be a a Rasson and sometimes it will be a Diamond. Players will adjust to whatever the conditions of the table are. Just like they do in different conditions of humidity, heat, TV Table, etc.

There's plenty of precedent for this.

Baseball parks are not exactly the same dimensions, for example. The tennis majors are played on different materials. Golf courses are different. Premier league pitches vary slightly in dimensions. And so on.

Mess with things too much and you are bound to, well, mess up.

 

[skogstokig]

yep, hope they learn from this. i'm not sure rassons are tighter to begin with, so that reason seems pretty idiotic.

 

[TrxR]

yep, hope they learn from this. i'm not sure rassons are tighter to begin with, so that reason seems pretty idiotic.

I don't believe Rasson tables are tighter , but I do believe the Diamond's have a deeper shelf which would make them more difficult. Now the angles could be different.

On the other hand MR could have both brands deliver tables with the same pocket specs as I can imagine they have enough pull to get the pockets done any way the want them.

 

[TrxR]

I've watched every major Matchroom tournament extensively for the past two years and the 2024 UK Open may have been my least enjoyable. Was it the 3 7/8 pockets? I dunno, but when a pro's pro like Niels Feijin complains, I think it pays to listen.

It all started when I saw Max Lechner miss more shots in one match than he's probably ever missed in his professional life! And it carried on. Players seemingly more afraid to take tough shots and banks, resorting to safeties when they might not have in the past.

Was it due to the pocket size? I don't know, but I naturally suspect.

MR's goal, Emily Frazer said, was to make the Diamonds play the same (as tough) as the 4-inch Rassons. This is ridiculous. Diamonds and Rassons are made very differently and cannot be made to play exactly the same. Nor is a Diamond with 4-inch pockets easy by any stretch of the imagination. How could anyone think that?

The problem is MR, not the tables. If MR wants consistency, it's easy. Just use one brand of table!

Does MLB use two different baseball makers? Does the NBA use two different brands of basketballs? Does the NFL use two different brands of footballs? No, no and no.

But of course, MR won't use just one brand of table because they get more money by having two official table sponsors. I get it, and that's fine by me.

Yet MR should just play with tables with 4-inch pockets and stop trying to make two different brands seem like one and the same. Sometimes it will be a a Rasson and sometimes it will be a Diamond. Players will adjust to whatever the conditions of the table are. Just like they do in different conditions of humidity, heat, TV Table, etc.

There's plenty of precedent for this.

Baseball parks are not exactly the same dimensions, for example. The tennis majors are played on different materials. Golf courses are different. Premier league pitches vary slightly in dimensions. And so on.

Mess with things too much and you are bound to, well, mess up.

The Diamonds are used for opens and the Rasson for invitationals so 2 different brands aren't really an issue, but changing pocket size all the time can be.

 

[jbart65]

The Diamonds are used for opens and the Rasson for invitationals so 2 different brands aren't really an issue, but changing pocket size all the time can be.

I agree. I just think they should stick to 4 inch pockets and not make the two brands try to play exactly alike. The tables are fine as they are.

 

[skogstokig]

You’re correct on all counts I quoted above. The problem is MR, the issue with tables and pocket size is just the tip of the iceberg. If MR wants to purport they care about the game then the best players should be playing on the best tables in the world exclusively, that is Diamonds.

Your point about baseballs, basketballs and footballs in relation to this table issue demonstrates quite nicely this isn’t about the sport or excellence in the sport, it’s about MR making money as Rasson tables are junk and only in the discussion because of the money they pay MR.

you do realize that the tables we're talking about are diamond tables, right? almost all MR tournaments have diamond tables

 

[spartan]

The Diamonds are used for opens and the Rasson for invitationals so 2 different brands aren't really an issue, but changing pocket size all the time can be.

True.
Agree. Invitationals are usually all top pros with guaranteed payout while WNT open tour events involve 128/256 players with only smaller % of top pros no guaranteed payout. Both are different types of events and need not be exactly same pocket size
https://matchroompool.com/news/matchroom-multi-sport-extends-partnership-with-rasson-billiards/
https://matchroompool.com/news/diam...vents-on-matchrooms-2024-world-nineball-tour/

 

[oscargrouch]

as Rasson tables are junk

What makes them junk?

 

[iusedtoberich]

That's what happens when you have someone in charge that can't make a BIH stop shot. She went too far. I think her enthusiasm and leadership is jam up, and very needed. But keep the equipment decisions to actual players. Or maybe even better, to fans that can appreciate the game, and want to see attacking, not micky mouse safeties.

On a personal note, I don't want to see these stupid tight pockets take over the game. I fear that if the WNT grows, the table vendors may make these 4" pockets as standard, and then we will be stuck with them for the next 30 years at our local halls.

 

[skogstokig]

That's what happens when you have someone in charge that can't make a BIH stop shot. She went too far. I think her enthusiasm and leadership is jam up, and very needed. But keep the equipment decisions to actual players. Or maybe even better, to fans that can appreciate the game, and want to see attacking, not micky mouse safeties.

On a personal note, I don't want to see these stupid tight pockets take over the game. I fear that if the WNT grows, the table vendors may make these 4" pockets as standard, and then we will be stuck with them for the next 30 years at our local halls.

i think that last paragraph is an irrational worry. commercial rooms will almost always chase the bangers, for good or for worse. they are the ones who pay the bills, unlike water drinking cheapskate pool players (like myself). for ppl that have real professional ambitions the best thing is to join a private club

 

[Colonel]

you do realize that the tables we're talking about are diamond tables, right? almost all MR tournaments have diamond tables

I think you’ve misconstrued my response. In the post I was replying to the poster mentioned the issue of MR having 2 types of tables. Diamonds for Majors and Rasson for the rest. As you know considering your first post in this thread, MR gave the reason of cutting the Diamond pockets to 3 7/8” at the UK Open because they didn’t play as tough As the Rassons. As you stated in your first post that doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t. My reply is me saying that Rassons shouldn’t even be in the conversation, all events should be on Diamonds at 4 1/8” as Diamond is the best table in the game and 3 7/8” pockets borders on being ridiculous for 1P much less 9 ball

 

[King T]

Pro Players should be able to run out on any table, thats their job. No I dont like the overly tight pockets, but thats on any table. The more tables the better, its good for the industry and good for spectators to see that theres options when it comes to tables, ball, cues or anything else we can get them to buy.

And yes golf does make changes, each course is different, the grass, the rough, the sand traps. Bowling uses different oil patterns, tennis, drag racing, F1, IMSA and many other sports vary the playing field.

 

[Ghost of OBC]

Pro Players should be able to run out on any table, thats their job. No I dont like the overly tight pockets, but thats on any table. The more tables the better, its good for the industry and good for spectators to see that theres options when it comes to tables, ball, cues or anything else we can get them to buy.

And yes golf does make changes, each course is different, the grass, the rough, the sand traps. Bowling uses different oil patterns, tennis, drag racing, F1, IMSA and many other sports vary the playing field.

Pocket billiards is a man vs. man game, not a man vs. nature game. The competitors play at the same time, on the same equipment. It is nothing like golf or car racing. There is no reason equipment shouldn't be standard. Snooker uses a pocket template to ensure that the field of play is the same for every match. This is the correct approach. Can you imagine if the hoops were higher at the Nets stadium than at the Jazz facility? That would be total nonsense.

 

[dendweller]

MR's goal, Emily Frazer said, was to make the Diamonds play the same (as tough) as the 4-inch Rassons. This is ridiculous. Diamonds and Rassons are made very differently and cannot be made to play exactly the same. Nor is a Diamond with 4-inch pockets easy by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd like to see the criteria she used to come up with the idea that a diamond played easier at 4" than a rasson.
Although it appears the rassons do have pockets that are more flared I'd think that is more than made up for with the deeper shelves on the diamond.

 

[trob]

Pocket billiards is a man vs. man game, not a man vs. nature game. The competitors play at the same time, on the same equipment. It is nothing like golf or car racing. There is no reason equipment shouldn't be standard. Snooker uses a pocket template to ensure that the field of play is the same for every match. This is the correct approach. Can you imagine if the hoops were higher at the Nets stadium than at the Jazz facility? That would be total nonsense.

How is pool a man vs man game. That person isn’t blocking you when you’re playing. They aren’t even allowed to move while you’re shooting according to everyone throwing a fit because he moved his hand in the finals. It’s you vs the table at the pro level. Maybe with amateurs in an apa league you play the person. Might be more aggressive when it’s a bad player but pro’s your playing the table.

I’ll type this again from another thread talking about this same issue. I love golf but don’t watch the us open. They make the course so hard that even the best in the world can’t shoot low. The Rough is so high that the fastest club swingers in the world have to just chop it on to the fairway. That takes away the great saving shots that pro’s can make that make the game fun to watch. They make the greens so fast even the pro’s with their ability to spin the ball can’t hold the green. The putting is so fast they can barely touch the ball and it rolls 5 feet past the hole. I love matchroom but thats what they are doing to pool by making the pockets to tight. your taking away the amazing shots the pro’s can play because it’s to low percentage even for them. I don’t want the pro’s playing on buckets anymore then I want to see pro golfers on a course thats driver pitching wedge all day But there is A fine line between hard enough to make them work and to hard that even they can’t play.

 

[Amaury]

I do enjoy safety battles.