Mechanics to visit Table-Tek shop this friday

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Just a word to those mechanics who are attending the Super Billiard Expo this coming week. I will be having a group at my shop (25 min from expo center) this Friday starting about lunchtime. We can go over some trade ideas and do some show and tell. I have my "Ultimate Subrail Tool" ready to do a demo, so if you have a set of twisted rails bring em'! Below is a list of people who said they are coming. I would like to keep this for people in the trade. If you are attending the SBE and are interested in coming, but aren't a table mechanic please call or email me first. I look forward to meeting more of you.
Rob Kay
215-622-8899
sales@table-tek.com

2700 Bergey rd, building F "front", Hatfield PA 19440

Pat O'Donnell "PoolTable911"
Bob DeTurk "The Turk"
Jay Spielburg "A1 billiards"
John Palmer "OTLB" possible, depending on scheduling
 
I'm not a mechanic, just a player/customer (with a carpentry background), and I've seen his shop and rail tooling, very impressive stuff. It will be well worth your trip to check it out.

Ryan
 
Rob, how would your ultimate tooling handle this kind of damage on a GC? Notice it's even nailed out under the Formica:D
 

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rail

How did someone manage to do that to the rail? Looks butchered up by a belt sander possibly..?
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I'm confident you have a fix±
Rob.M
 
Glen,
Did you want to fix everything, or just the subrail? I have yet to jump into the Gold crown formica replacement, perhaps over summer once I get my spray booth done. The answer is yes, of course my tooling can fix this. If this was intended as a flame, I would say that my tooling is accurate because I refuse to use plywood as a tool. If you want you can mail me a set that you aren't setup to repair, that would be quite the test. I never was trying to setup so I could live on the road, there is more than enough work within my 150 mile radius. I see myself on the beginning of the path to be a top mechanic, everything I can be improved on. When you start to think you have all the answers it is time to move on to something else. Just my two cents.
 
I spoke with Rob yesterday and he told me 12:30 fyi

TT is surely on the road to being a top mech and he is already above most IMO. Having a full fledge shop with some of the machinery he has is hard to compete with. Can't wait to see what else he comes up with.

Thanks for sharing your new tooling method, can't wait to get one of those portable units your building.
 
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Glen,
Did you want to fix everything, or just the subrail? I have yet to jump into the Gold crown formica replacement, perhaps over summer once I get my spray booth done. The answer is yes, of course my tooling can fix this. If this was intended as a flame, I would say that my tooling is accurate because I refuse to use plywood as a tool. If you want you can mail me a set that you aren't setup to repair, that would be quite the test. I never was trying to setup so I could live on the road, there is more than enough work within my 150 mile radius. I see myself on the beginning of the path to be a top mechanic, everything I can be improved on. When you start to think you have all the answers it is time to move on to something else. Just my two cents.

You're banking a lot on a one dimensional machine Rob, I told you your system has its flaws, I've already rebuilt the rail I posted the picture of, so I have no need to send them to anyone;)

But, here's something you can help me with....what is the meaning of, "Pigs get fatter, hogs get slaughtered"?;)

Glen
 
I should be flying in that morning, so may be in attendance as well, I'll know more then.
But I will be there this weekend
 
You're banking a lot on a one dimensional machine Rob, I told you your system has its flaws, I've already rebuilt the rail I posted the picture of, so I have no need to send them to anyone;)

But, here's something you can help me with....what is the meaning of, "Pigs get fatter, hogs get slaughtered"?;)

Glen


Hi Glen,
Sorry I was a bit on the defensive in that last post, lots of BS yesterday. On a different note, there is no such thing as 1 dimension. Reality as we know it starts at 2d such as a typewritten paper (though technically it too is 3d because of its depth). The machine in question is a 3 axis mill, sometimes it is 4 axis when I have a rotary table on it. The only major flaw is it's lack of portability, other than that it is all about attachments. With the exception of using a much more expensive machine with a faster rate of travel, anything else done to speed the process will reduce the accuracy. In fact, it is too accurate because it far exceeds manufacturer tolerances which means there is a point of diminished returns.
2010-03-11 10.59.27.jpg
To answer your question about your quote...
The hog gets slaughtered when they have fully matured and reached the correct slaughter weight of 250#, not really sure where you were going there. If I were you I would stay away from Smithfield Farms just to be safe, you are too valuable to lose.
 
bite

Anyone ever been bitten by a snake while handling it?
I only got one thing to say..
You knew it was a snake when you picked it up and messed with it
-
Rob.M
 
Hi Glen,
Sorry I was a bit on the defensive in that last post, lots of BS yesterday. On a different note, there is no such thing as 1 dimension. Reality as we know it starts at 2d such as a typewritten paper (though technically it too is 3d because of its depth). The machine in question is a 3 axis mill, sometimes it is 4 axis when I have a rotary table on it. The only major flaw is it's lack of portability, other than that it is all about attachments. With the exception of using a much more expensive machine with a faster rate of travel, anything else done to speed the process will reduce the accuracy. In fact, it is too accurate because it far exceeds manufacturer tolerances which means there is a point of diminished returns.
View attachment 129860
To answer your question about your quote...
The hog gets slaughtered when they have fully matured and reached the correct slaughter weight of 250#, not really sure where you were going there. If I were you I would stay away from Smithfield Farms just to be safe, you are too valuable to lose.

Rob, I'm not talking about one dimensional as in line of sight buddy, I'm talking about you basing everything about rebuilding rails on your milling machine. The total accuracy in the ability to rebuild the sub-rails are based on two very important factors, (1) the feather strip dado, and (2) the height of the rail above the level of the slate and parallel relationship of the rail to the flatness of the slate.

(1) Sub-rails vary in width.

(2) Sub-rails vary in thickness.

(3) Rails vary in width, such as the Formica on GC rails are anywhere from 4 1/8"th to 4 3/16"th wide.

(4) The outside trim molding on GC's are not always parallel to the sub-rail.

(5) The rails are not always flat, or straight.

(6) If the rails are stapled out, your mill is pretty much worthless to fix that problem, since when the rails are being dadoed out, you still need to be able to use the feather strip as the guide line in order to create a straight and parallel cloth relief in a straight relationship to the feather strip dado.

I could go on, but what's the point, your "Ultimate" tooling can't get past the flaws I just posted.

Question for you Rob, if you have to re-cut the feather strip dado 5/16" wide and 3/8" deep but the rail is bowed out in the center....can you re-cut it with your mill...without removing any of the Formica finish, or going wider than 5/16" dado?

I grew up on a hog farm, the hogs got slaughtered first so that the other pigs would get their share of the feed...and we raised over 500 pigs at one time....so there is a meaning in that saying;)

Glen
 
Rob, I'm not talking about one dimensional as in line of sight buddy, I'm talking about you basing everything about rebuilding rails on your milling machine. The total accuracy in the ability to rebuild the sub-rails are based on two very important factors, (1) the feather strip dado, and (2) the height of the rail above the level of the slate and parallel relationship of the rail to the flatness of the slate.

(1) Sub-rails vary in width.

(2) Sub-rails vary in thickness.

(3) Rails vary in width, such as the Formica on GC rails are anywhere from 4 1/8"th to 4 3/16"th wide.

(4) The outside trim molding on GC's are not always parallel to the sub-rail.

(5) The rails are not always flat, or straight.

(6) If the rails are stapled out, your mill is pretty much worthless to fix that problem, since when the rails are being dadoed out, you still need to be able to use the feather strip as the guide line in order to create a straight and parallel cloth relief in a straight relationship to the feather strip dado.

I could go on, but what's the point, your "Ultimate" tooling can't get past the flaws I just posted.

Question for you Rob, if you have to re-cut the feather strip dado 5/16" wide and 3/8" deep but the rail is bowed out in the center....can you re-cut it with your mill...without removing any of the Formica finish, or going wider than 5/16" dado?

I grew up on a hog farm, the hogs got slaughtered first so that the other pigs would get their share of the feed...and we raised over 500 pigs at one time....so there is a meaning in that saying;)

Glen

Sounds like someone was makin the bacon to me!:thumbup:
 
Most accurate subrail angle, not fastest

Rob, I'm not talking about one dimensional as in line of sight buddy, I'm talking about you basing everything about rebuilding rails on your milling machine. The total accuracy in the ability to rebuild the sub-rails are based on two very important factors, (1) the feather strip dado, and (2) the height of the rail above the level of the slate and parallel relationship of the rail to the flatness of the slate.

(1) Sub-rails vary in width.

(2) Sub-rails vary in thickness.

(3) Rails vary in width, such as the Formica on GC rails are anywhere from 4 1/8"th to 4 3/16"th wide.

(4) The outside trim molding on GC's are not always parallel to the sub-rail.

(5) The rails are not always flat, or straight.

(6) If the rails are stapled out, your mill is pretty much worthless to fix that problem, since when the rails are being dadoed out, you still need to be able to use the feather strip as the guide line in order to create a straight and parallel cloth relief in a straight relationship to the feather strip dado.

I could go on, but what's the point, your "Ultimate" tooling can't get past the flaws I just posted.

Question for you Rob, if you have to re-cut the feather strip dado 5/16" wide and 3/8" deep but the rail is bowed out in the center....can you re-cut it with your mill...without removing any of the Formica finish, or going wider than 5/16" dado?

I grew up on a hog farm, the hogs got slaughtered first so that the other pigs would get their share of the feed...and we raised over 500 pigs at one time....so there is a meaning in that saying;)


Ok, we aren't on the same page... no problem.
1) Subrail width, yes I have many bolting locations. If I need a new pattern, I drill it on the mill. I can easily indicate any point of the rail in within 0.0005", just try finding a straight place at anywhere near that accuracy.
2)Subrail thickness, Since I am not going to scribed lines on a piece of plywood this is not an issue. The mill head rotate 180degrees on 2 axis, extends and withdraws a total of 18" of travel. The quill has 6" of z-axis travel. The bed is 50x14" and I have the fixture plate made in a way it rides in the T-slots to take longer passes.
3/4) Formica? None of this affects crap, and I work on more than 2 tables. My fixture works for all (yes, even medalist 1 piece).
5)Rails are not always flat or straight? You must be kidding. They are "never" flat or straight. Why do you think I bolt them down to the fixture as if they were on the slate. And before you say the slate is better, the fixture is flat and paralell to 0.004 over 62". You will probably never see a slate that accurate.
6)Stapled out rails? This is funny actually. I can mount the rails upright (subrail pointed up) should I ever need to (just need 3 holes...) Then I can mill the dado flat and true to add wood to if it needs it. Again, precisely.

I don't bash you for not having manufacturing knowledge, you are a terrific shade-tree designer. Using your creativity you do some awesome work. My point is that I actually went to school for the accurate manufacturing that I speak of. The material does not matter, it is the process and having the tool for the job.

Recut the featherstrip dado... Do you mean, cut the dado deeper while following the current profile, even if it was bowed? To that, I would have to modify a plate to follow the profile and then use either a router or a circular saw. If on the other hand you wanted to recut the dado straight, then replace the top of the subrail to maintain the 5/16? width, that is easy as well. You are grabbing at air. No hand process has the accuracy of a 4000# machine. Just plain and simple.

Just wait until more mechanics see the machine in use. The only rational argument against it is the cost, lack of portability and time.

Rob
 
Rob, I'm not talking about one dimensional as in line of sight buddy, I'm talking about you basing everything about rebuilding rails on your milling machine. The total accuracy in the ability to rebuild the sub-rails are based on two very important factors, (1) the feather strip dado, and (2) the height of the rail above the level of the slate and parallel relationship of the rail to the flatness of the slate.

(1) Sub-rails vary in width.

(2) Sub-rails vary in thickness.

(3) Rails vary in width, such as the Formica on GC rails are anywhere from 4 1/8"th to 4 3/16"th wide.

(4) The outside trim molding on GC's are not always parallel to the sub-rail.

(5) The rails are not always flat, or straight.

(6) If the rails are stapled out, your mill is pretty much worthless to fix that problem, since when the rails are being dadoed out, you still need to be able to use the feather strip as the guide line in order to create a straight and parallel cloth relief in a straight relationship to the feather strip dado.

I could go on, but what's the point, your "Ultimate" tooling can't get past the flaws I just posted.

Question for you Rob, if you have to re-cut the feather strip dado 5/16" wide and 3/8" deep but the rail is bowed out in the center....can you re-cut it with your mill...without removing any of the Formica finish, or going wider than 5/16" dado?

I grew up on a hog farm, the hogs got slaughtered first so that the other pigs would get their share of the feed...and we raised over 500 pigs at one time....so there is a meaning in that saying;)


Ok, we aren't on the same page... no problem.
1) Subrail width, yes I have many bolting locations. If I need a new pattern, I drill it on the mill. I can easily indicate any point of the rail in within 0.0005", just try finding a straight place at anywhere near that accuracy.
2)Subrail thickness, Since I am not going to scribed lines on a piece of plywood this is not an issue. The mill head rotate 180degrees on 2 axis, extends and withdraws a total of 18" of travel. The quill has 6" of z-axis travel. The bed is 50x14" and I have the fixture plate made in a way it rides in the T-slots to take longer passes.
3/4) Formica? None of this affects crap, and I work on more than 2 tables. My fixture works for all (yes, even medalist 1 piece).
5)Rails are not always flat or straight? You must be kidding. They are "never" flat or straight. Why do you think I bolt them down to the fixture as if they were on the slate. And before you say the slate is better, the fixture is flat and paralell to 0.004 over 62". You will probably never see a slate that accurate.
6)Stapled out rails? This is funny actually. I can mount the rails upright (subrail pointed up) should I ever need to (just need 3 holes...) Then I can mill the dado flat and true to add wood to if it needs it. Again, precisely.

I don't bash you for not having manufacturing knowledge, you are a terrific shade-tree designer. Using your creativity you do some awesome work. My point is that I actually went to school for the accurate manufacturing that I speak of. The material does not matter, it is the process and having the tool for the job.

Recut the featherstrip dado... Do you mean, cut the dado deeper while following the current profile, even if it was bowed? To that, I would have to modify a plate to follow the profile and then use either a router or a circular saw. If on the other hand you wanted to recut the dado straight, then replace the top of the subrail to maintain the 5/16? width, that is easy as well. You are grabbing at air. No hand process has the accuracy of a 4000# machine. Just plain and simple.

Just wait until more mechanics see the machine in use. The only rational argument against it is the cost, lack of portability and time.

Rob

Rob, I know how accurate the mill is, the problem is it's TO accurate for dealing with wood, and way tooooooo slow to be cost effective. When working with wood, the .00000000005 you keep referring to as ACCURACY can't be held to them tolerances because wood breathes, by that I mean expands and contracts....changes sizes from one day to the next....so just what does all that accuracy you keep talking about have to do with wood? Metal, yeeeeeeessss.....WOOD, not a chance in hell. If you can keep wood to within 1/64"th of an inch you're doing great....so be realistic....all them tolerances you keep talking about mean NOTHING when it comes to working with wood. They didn't teach you that in school?

Glen
 
I don't bash you for not having manufacturing knowledge, you are a terrific shade-tree designer.

Rob

Rob, think like a wood worker, not as a machinist, and things will become much more simple for you;) I've built a little over 500 pool tables Rob, of them, 128 were King Cobra coin-operated pool tables, and 20 Diamond 7ft Smart Tables, plus Diamonds first 9ft Smart Table with a 3 piece slate....all by using them "shade-tree" jigs to reproduce the exact same parts over and over again, exactly the same every time, I think I know a little bit about "production"....wouldn't you say? Not to mention the fact that my "shade-tree" tooling is 100% mobile, and is very, very...accurate;)

Glen
 
Rob has created a way to define rail liners and my hat is off to him. He has reason to toot his horn and its sounding louder all the time.

He has shown his machine for all to review and ponder. It works, I saw it.

Funny, if I had said here is my new tooling for doing something the forum would have pounced on me for not showing it.

Glen, you should show what your using or don't talk about it. Thats what you tell me all the time isn't it. Yet its ok for you?
 
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But, here's something you can help me with....what is the meaning of, "Pigs get fatter, hogs get slaughtered"?;)

Glen

I've always loved that quote. Of course the last time I heard it was in a gambling context.

On a serious note though, without even seeing either setup, I can already tell that both have their pros and cons. I think instead of bashing each other, you should be trying to help each other to better the industry as a whole.

Just my opinion, being tired of the bickering and one-upmanship on this board.
 
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